[Ukraine] Missing in Action: Western Minds

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Ukraine] Missing in Action: Western Minds

What is the most powerful flying bug? This poll is closed.
🦋	15	3.71%
🦇	115	28.47%
🪰	12	2.97%
🐦	67	16.58%
dragonfly	94	23.27%
🦟	14	3.47%
🐝	87	21.53%
Total:	404 votes

[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009

John Charity Spring posted:

congrats on the kid, and not being a mod anymore. also stop listening to so many terrible podcasts. good luck in your endeavours

Wow, shots fired at We Hate Movies. :stare:

# ? Feb 16, 2023 22:51

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# ? May 23, 2024 15:16

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

Orange Devil posted:

How are Norwegians dealing with finding out their government has committed an act of war against Russia, Germany and likely a good chunk of Western Europe?

Cus like, nothing personal, but if my government announced we'd commence bombing Oslo in 5 minutes I'd be alright with that.

so long as you stuck to oslo i'd be fine with it

to be serious, it's been thoroughly pushed to the fringes. for an impression of how the press is treating it, see this:
https://journalisten.no/terningkast-666-til-hell-debatten-en-steigan-apenbaring-av-bibelske-proporsjoner/558944

this is the journalists' mag for journalism. steigan's an old maoist who runs an alt-media outfit which mostly translates various international stuff (of dramatically varying quality) into norwegian and republishes it, along with some domestic content mostly sourced from cranks etc. who's ended up being the main guy to push hersh's story in this country.

even the old maoist paper literally called the class struggle has published one wary piece about the report and then firmly shut up about it. no editorial, no call for a formal inquiry or at least further investigation of the allegations, nothing. that paper has taken a leading role in trying to whip the left into line on the ukraine war more generally, so it's not really a surprise, but it is disappointing

V. Illych L. has issued a correction as of 23:00 on Feb 16, 2023

# ? Feb 16, 2023 22:58

BULBASAUR: Apr 6, 2009; Soiled Meat

V. Illych L. posted:

the reaction to the hersh story is completely bonkers

were his Vietnam and Bush era stories initially received as tepidly?

# ? Feb 16, 2023 22:58

Cuttlefush: Jan 15, 2014; gotta have my purp

BULBASAUR posted:

were his Vietnam and Bush era stories initially received as tepidly?

would you believe it if i told you that he had some trouble getting mainstream publications who he previously had good relationships with to take it? he ended up using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispatch_News_Service?useskin=vector

i dont think he had the equivalent of the osint guys pitifully trying to catch him. the pushback here is definitely of a different character

# ? Feb 16, 2023 23:01

speng31b: May 8, 2010

Ytlaya posted:

Congratulations on the child/job Majorian. Sad to see you go as a moderator, because you were better than nearly every other mod by simple virtue of caring about what posters think.

the only way to prove one's worth as a mod is to demod oneself. powerful thoughts

# ? Feb 16, 2023 23:03

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

BULBASAUR posted:

were his Vietnam and Bush era stories initially received as tepidly?

i don't know, but at least in norway that really would surprise me. as late as 2003 you had mainstream comedy panel shows openly mocking colin powell. even 2011 with libya was nowhere near this level of message discipline here - there was a real opposition to the government position, and it was given at least some measure of a hearing (this did not prevent the more jingoistic segments of the press from running with the insanely racist "black mercenaries given viagra" story, but you know).

# ? Feb 16, 2023 23:04

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

V. Illych L. posted:

so long as you stuck to oslo i'd be fine with it

Also to be serious, if we lived in a world where we weren't all vassal states of the US empire and I had any influence whatsoever on my government I'd push heavily for smashing the Norwegian piggy bank oil fund over this poo poo and using it to compensate the poor people affected by the combination of neoliberalism and soaring oil prices due to war/sanctions/bombing the pipeline.

I nowadays work for a housing company (Dutch thing that's like a semi-government organization providing low rent housing to low income people) and the effects of the rising energy prices and general inflation has been loving dire for some of the poorest people. Like sure, we are a rich country and could solve this on our own (but neoliberalism so lol) but still, seems fair to me.

# ? Feb 16, 2023 23:05

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

doesn't Norway stand to profit off the vacuum left by Russia in the energy market? could explain the discipline

# ? Feb 16, 2023 23:06

Cuttlefush: Jan 15, 2014; gotta have my purp

speng31b posted:

the only way to prove one's worth as a mod is to demod oneself. powerful thoughts

you can also perform great feats, slay monsters. but those can cost you. azathoth will never be the same after culling the deviant art thread

# ? Feb 16, 2023 23:06

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

indigi posted:

doesn't Norway stand to profit off the vacuum left by Russia in the energy market? could explain the discipline

Norway has already profited to the tune of tens of billions, and due to the way the sovereign oil fund works, this benefits every average Norwegian.

They did a little act of war, a little terrorism, a little environmental disaster, for money.

# ? Feb 16, 2023 23:07

Mr Hootington: Jul 24, 2008; I'M HAVING A HOOT EATING CORNETTE THE LONG WAY

Orange Devil posted:

Norway has already profited to the tune of tens of billions, and due to the way the sovereign oil fund works, this benefits every average Norwegian.

They did a little act of war, a little terrorism, a little environmental disaster, for money.

President putin has spread communism!

# ? Feb 16, 2023 23:08

mila kunis: Jun 10, 2011

V. Illych L. posted:

i don't know, but at least in norway that really would surprise me. as late as 2003 you had mainstream comedy panel shows openly mocking colin powell. even 2011 with libya was nowhere near this level of message discipline here - there was a real opposition to the government position, and it was given at least some measure of a hearing (this did not prevent the more jingoistic segments of the press from running with the insanely racist "black mercenaries given viagra" story, but you know).

in 2003 and 2011 the west was the aggressor. this time the aggressor is russia

# ? Feb 16, 2023 23:09

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

mila kunis posted:

in 2003 and 2011 the west was the aggressor. this time the aggressor is russia

Orange Devil posted:

Norway has already profited to the tune of tens of billions, and due to the way the sovereign oil fund works, this benefits every average Norwegian.

They did a little act of war, a little terrorism, a little environmental disaster, for money.

Nordic social democracy works!

# ? Feb 16, 2023 23:20

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009

Majorian posted:

mila penis

# ? Feb 16, 2023 23:20

BULBASAUR: Apr 6, 2009; Soiled Meat

Goongrats Majorian. Being a mod sucks, I'm glad you can do real baby sitting instead.

V. Illych L. posted:

i don't know, but at least in norway that really would surprise me. as late as 2003 you had mainstream comedy panel shows openly mocking colin powell. even 2011 with libya was nowhere near this level of message discipline here - there was a real opposition to the government position, and it was given at least some measure of a hearing (this did not prevent the more jingoistic segments of the press from running with the insanely racist "black mercenaries given viagra" story, but you know).

I can't speak for Norway, but I have Swedish family and have watched their politics drift closer in the direction of the US which they kinda always favored anyway.

Like that twitter thread from a few pages ago its sad seeing common people back government actions mostly against their interests. Gotta maintain close ties with the US despite the US clearly making a play to sacrifice Europe in order to stay afloat a bit longer economically.

# ? Feb 16, 2023 23:20

yellowcar: Feb 14, 2010

BULBASAUR posted:

were his Vietnam and Bush era stories initially received as tepidly?

https://twitter.com/MarkAmesExiled/status/1626279696827617290

# ? Feb 16, 2023 23:22

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

the infuriating thing about the fringe outlets being the only ones to cover stuff like this is that it genuinely gives them legitimacy - anyone who thinks that a guy with hersh's record warrants a serious listen is basically told that they're conspiracy theorists and maniacs with no business being anywhere near the mainstream. in this one case that probably amounts to at least a moderate single-digit percent of politically aware people. given enough such cases, you risk completely wrecking the concept of a mainstream, and at that point there's no longer any kind of functional norwegian mass politics

Orange Devil posted:

Norway has already profited to the tune of tens of billions, and due to the way the sovereign oil fund works, this benefits every average Norwegian.

They did a little act of war, a little terrorism, a little environmental disaster, for money.

it's a bit more complicated than that, unfortunately - the structural increase in natural gas prices has also seen a rise in the price of electricity. norway is one of the most electrified countries in in the world. these price increases have battered most norwegians, to the point that even my purchasing power as an upper-middle-class guy has noticably decreased over the past year. government spending has also been curtailed to try and manage inflation, which because we're on a sovereign currency always becomes a problem in times of geopolitical turmoil. the impact of the electricity price increases has been significantly ameliorated by a massive subsidy to household consumption, but this is still a major structural problem for every part of the private sector not involved with petrochemicals.

that said, the petrochemical industry has enormous clout in this country.

the long-term plan of the parties of state appears to be a normalisation of the norwegian economy to an EU level, accomplished through marketisation reforms which harmonise various price levels until there's no structural advantage left for labour to leverage. our security strategists are effectively betting everything on the "we are the US' dear friend" card, and all security policy must be interpreted in this light.

if norway's involved in this, i'd guess that this security posture has made us highly susceptible to US pressure, and the petrochemical industry's sheer political weight will have helped quash any other concerns.

mila kunis posted:

in 2003 and 2011 the west was the aggressor. this time the aggressor is russia

in 2011 our press were absolutely not framing us as aggressors and that claim probably would not have been tolerated. what was tolerated was stuff like "we don't know what the consequences will be", "we have no clear plan for regime change", "the UN mandate is unclear" etc. that is to say, what you're implying here has nothing to do with anything. i agree that it's more taboo to defend russia than it was to call us aggressors in 2011, but what i'm talking about is stuff like the previously mentioned left-wing daily saying that the Red party's policy of not arming ukraine made it reasonable to doubt that the party would go in for defending norway in the case of invasion - effectively accusing the party of treason.

# ? Feb 16, 2023 23:22

genericnick: Dec 26, 2012

V. Illych L. posted:

i don't know, but at least in norway that really would surprise me. as late as 2003 you had mainstream comedy panel shows openly mocking colin powell. even 2011 with libya was nowhere near this level of message discipline here - there was a real opposition to the government position, and it was given at least some measure of a hearing (this did not prevent the more jingoistic segments of the press from running with the insanely racist "black mercenaries given viagra" story, but you know).

Yeah, I feel the consent machine really started coming to grip with Europe around Syria. After Libya the UK parliament of all places felt pressured into doing an investigation of the pre war claims and they caught enough heat that they were wary about Syria, but in parallel the public diplomacy started going into overdrive. I guess there was also the three step process moving from the banks caused the crisis -> the Greeks caused the crisis -> Rapefugees!!! that pretty much broke the left on the continent.

# ? Feb 16, 2023 23:24

Regarde Aduck: Oct 19, 2012; c l o u d k i t t e n; Grimey Drawer

mila kunis posted:

in 2003 and 2011 the west was the aggressor. this time the aggressor is russia

so what happened with you, were you just a deep cover troll or did you get brain damage because you didn't always post like this

# ? Feb 16, 2023 23:25

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

genericnick posted:

Yeah, I feel the consent machine really started coming to grip with Europe around Syria. After Libya the UK parliament of all places felt pressured into doing an investigation of the pre war claims and they caught enough heat that they were wary about Syria, but in parallel the public diplomacy started going into overdrive. I guess there was also the three step process moving from the banks caused the crisis -> the Greeks caused the crisis -> Rapefugees!!! that pretty much broke the left on the continent.

i honestly don't know. i think part of it is also a hangover from the covid period, where the press took it upon itself to march very much in lockstep. my guess is that a series of stories of the danger of the unwashed masses - brexit, trump, italy, greece, covid - made fake news a major concern, and that the ideology of countering fake-news effectively encouraged group-think and ideological conformity among the talking classes. i never got the impression from norway that syria was any major inflection point, but i might've just not paid close enough attention.

# ? Feb 16, 2023 23:31

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

i'm p sure that the bourg press is just doing what it always wanted to but didn't think it could get away with

# ? Feb 16, 2023 23:33

genericnick: Dec 26, 2012

V. Illych L. posted:

i honestly don't know. i think part of it is also a hangover from the covid period, where the press took it upon itself to march very much in lockstep. my guess is that a series of stories of the danger of the unwashed masses - brexit, trump, italy, greece, covid - made fake news a major concern, and that the ideology of countering fake-news effectively encouraged group-think and ideological conformity among the talking classes. i never got the impression from norway that syria was any major inflection point, but i might've just not paid close enough attention.

That's a good point. Trump is obvious, but there was a long arc that formed the journalists into a phalanx of anti-populists. You might also be right about Libya. Syria feels like a turning point because I had heated discussions over it for years. No one wanted to talk about Libya after NATO destroyed it.

# ? Feb 16, 2023 23:38

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

another thing to note here is that the reduction in journalistic resources available will have had the effect of both making the number of active reporters smaller (and thus likely more homogenous for various reasons) and making them less able to invest effort into speculative, investigative stories. the demand to keep churning stuff out keeps journalists from developing the kind of sources you'd need for adversarial reporting even if the journalist in question happened to be interested.

# ? Feb 16, 2023 23:41

Endman: May 18, 2010; That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even anime may die

Man Russia is so aggressive, look how close they put their country to our anti-Russia military alliance!

# ? Feb 16, 2023 23:41

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

# ? Feb 17, 2023 00:02

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

wrt "people know Libya was a 'mistake'" "EUROPE�S LIBYA WAR TASK GROUP HAS A NOBLE AND ABSOLUTELY FUNDAMENTAL OBJECTIVE'", "LIBYAN RORKE�S DRIFT SALUTES SHADOW WARRIOR SACRIFICE", "SUBMARINE CONCLUDES COUNTER-TERROR MISSION"

"The Portuguese submarine NRP Tridente has completed a 47-day deployment in support of NATO�s Operation Sea Guardian, which seeks to guard against terrorism and other security threats in the Mediterranean." (Read: NATO still, today, has submarines patrolling the Med to turn away refugees)

:thunk:

# ? Feb 17, 2023 00:15

Regarde Aduck: Oct 19, 2012; c l o u d k i t t e n; Grimey Drawer

Lostconfused posted:

cool owl

# ? Feb 17, 2023 00:29

fatelvis: Mar 21, 2010

Majorian posted:

All right folks, it�s been fun modding this thread and cspam. But I�ve got a baby on the way and a new job, and I just don�t have the time, energy, or bandwidth to keep doing this effectively. On top of that it�s becoming increasingly clear that I�m out of step with what most of cspam�s users want. So it�s time for me to step down as a mod - probably past time, in fact. Thanks to everyone who made this a fun thread and forum to moderate. I hope this awful war ends soon.

May you all continue to be gay for Putin.

Good luck with the kid - I look forward to their posts.

# ? Feb 17, 2023 00:36