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Kwolok posted:Did you honestly watch that last episode? They clearly have grown very close, but Joel has demons and self-doubt that causes him to push people away, especially those he feels fatherly towards. But in the end that connection they formed still won out and, against his instincts, he took her to the campus. After episode 3 when we cut back to Joel and Ellie, I kind of felt like some of these posters apparently still do- 'they're fine, but they're not Frank and Bill, the true heart of the show'. But episode 6 was to Joel and Ellie what episode 3 was to Bill and Frank. If you weren't in tears, or otherwise overwhelmed by the emotions on display, I honestly don't know what show you were watching. It seemed like the emotional climax of the series. As someone who hasn't played the games I am 100% invested in Joel and Ellie's story and it struck me as an absolutely bizarre question until other folks came in and said "nah." I mean I guess I shouldn't be surprised. There were people in this thread who reacted to episode three the same way. And I can't fault people for sticking it out- the show is beautiful even if you aren't getting anything out of the characters. But it's still something I can't really wrap my head around.
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Feb 22, 2023 00:20
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Kwolok posted:Did you honestly watch that last episode? They clearly have grown very close, but Joel has demons and self-doubt that causes him to push people away, especially those he feels fatherly towards. But in the end that connection they formed still won out and, against his instincts, he took her to the campus. I could understand if someone has never known someone like this. But it's very very true that for a certain type of person, the closer they feel to someone else, the more they feel a desperate need to get the gently caress out. Joel's panic attacks and his move to abandon Ellie in this episode were because he cares so much about her, not because he doesn't. And Ellie was just literally telling him how close she feels to him. I agree that their archetypes are well-worn, y'know, the gruff distant fatherly type who warms up to the spunky girl that he eventually decides to care for... Wolverine & Kitty/Jubilee, etc. Even so, it's hard for me to say that they are flat and uninteresting, even if it's the actors doing most of the heavy lifting to elevate them. Maybe they're not as compelling and unique a pair as like, Hannibal & Will, or Chidi & Eleanor, or Garak & Bashir, or Omar Little, but a character can still be good without being the very very best imo.
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Feb 22, 2023 00:31
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Kwolok posted:So to those who say they are generic walking dead characters. What do you want? We have backstory, motivation, drive, and we've developed their personalities quite substantially. What is missing for you? When Joel’s brother handed him the gun (and no additional ammo) and then in the next scene we see them just wasting rounds on some cute/unnecessary target practice in a large open field with no cover, a thing previously stated that will for sure draw zombies and people, I was like drat they wouldn’t have even done something this stupid in the walking dead. That said, what’s missing for me is plots that last longer than an episode. Other than that loving it.
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Feb 22, 2023 00:42
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fullroundaction posted:When Joel’s brother handed him the gun (and no additional ammo) and then in the next scene we see them just wasting rounds on some cute/unnecessary target practice in a large open field with no cover, a thing previously stated that will for sure draw zombies and people, I was like drat they wouldn’t have even done something this stupid in the walking dead. Enemies reset and ammo respawns when you pass the next checkpoint so it’s all good.
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Feb 22, 2023 00:57
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I'll start by saying that I enjoy the show as a non-game player although I do know what will happen, but I don't think that affects my thoughts here. I enjoyed the Bill and Frank episode and thought it was really well done and told a very good story. But Bill and Frank themselves, I don't really care about them as characters. As in, if that episode was find/replace all instances of Bill and Frank with any other couple, existing or not, nothing would have changed for me. And that's kind of the problem. All of these characters are just blank slates that have nothing particularly special about them other than Ellie with her infection thing. If you can find/replace Bill and Frank with Jessie and James or Jessie and Janet or James and John and the entire story doesn't change, then why would I care about Bill and Frank in particular? It was a beautiful story but the characters themselves are uninteresting and forgettable. The show keeps introducing these blank empty generic characters as plot devices to tell a story, and that's okay! But the point is the episode ends and those characters they introduced are probably gone forever and will never be seen from or heard from again. So then, the important thing is the story right? In the last episode there was just a lot of walking, and walking, and talking. Not much doing, not much actually happened. The story didn't really advance at all, nor has it since the beginning of the show to be honest. Joel and Ellie needs to get to this super secret firefly laboratory, and each episode has so far either been immaterial to the story (Bill and Frank), or it kinda started and stopped at the same place: new characters got introduced and now they're gone and maybe they are physically closer to their destination but in the end the next episode is once again either about new characters we'll never see again or they will walk and talk but the story won't advance much. As far as caring about Joel and Ellie's relationship: the show hasn't really given me a single reason to care about Joel OR Ellie, so why would I care about Joel AND Ellie? They're just not interesting, not remarkable, not relatable, not mysterious, etc. They can literally be find/replaced with any other character we've already seen in the background and nothing changes.
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Feb 22, 2023 00:59
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Boris Galerkin posted:As far as caring about Joel and Ellie's relationship: the show hasn't really given me a single reason to care about Joel OR Ellie, so why would I care about Joel AND Ellie? They're just not interesting, not remarkable, not relatable, not mysterious, etc. They can literally be find/replaced with any other character we've already seen in the background and nothing changes. So did you miss the whole intro of the very first episode where Joel had a daughter that he loved, who loved him, and then he watched her get shot and die pointlessly right in front of him and it permanently damages his ability to form & maintain intimate relationships with others, or...? Like he doesn't shoot lasers out of his eyes, or run a secret intelligence agency, but it's just untrue to say that he doesn't have any character traits.
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Feb 22, 2023 01:11
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Boris Galerkin posted:
lmao I've seen some scorching takes in my time but good god.
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Feb 22, 2023 01:14
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XboxPants posted:So did you miss the whole intro of the very first episode where Joel had a daughter that he loved, who loved him, and then he watched her get shot and die pointlessly right in front of him and it permanently damages his ability to form & maintain intimate relationships with others, or...? So what happens if it was Joel who died and it ended up being Tommy who worked with Tess to take Ellie to the laboratory? Or if it was Joel who got bitten instead of Tess and the rest of the story is about Tess and Ellie's Awesome Adventure? Nothing changes about the story because everybody is literally interchangeable. e: Heck I'd prolly enjoy Tess and Ellie's Awesome Adventure more because the actor who plays Tess is awesome.
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Feb 22, 2023 01:19
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Boris Galerkin posted:
Yeah I believe they call them NPCs, they're randomly generated
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Feb 22, 2023 01:22
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These are some of the most confusing criticisms based on what wasn't written, I flat out do not get the argument. A plot is a plot, and characters are characters. How they interact with the plot differs from the individuals being depicted. Is the argument that you did a find+replace in the script for character names that it would be the same aside from the character names? Like no poo poo What is even happening
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Feb 22, 2023 01:38
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If you give all of one person’s life experiences to a second person, that second person might as well be the first person. Makes you think.
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Feb 22, 2023 01:40
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I mean that Joel and Ellie are empty characters and could be replaced with redshirts with their own stories and the plot is literally the same. Like if Joel and Tommy actually ended up swapping places and it was Tommy who took Ellie to the university and it was Tommy who got stabbed... who gives a gently caress?
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Feb 22, 2023 01:42
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it's true, if you changed the characters but kept the plot the same the plot would be the same
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Feb 22, 2023 01:43
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That's true, but it's not a criticism. You could replace any character with a different character in any story and have the same plot as long as you preserve the core plot elements. I think your actual problem is just that you haven't connected with Joel and Ellie on the show, so you don't care about them very much.
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Feb 22, 2023 01:44
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Boris Galerkin posted:
a smuggler who survived 20 years into the apocalypse and a hardened orphan who might hold the key to humanity’s survival: not interesting, remarkable (!) or mysterious. Infinitely replaceable (why, it could be Tess making dad jokes and getting excited about the idea of airplanes, who would know the difference?). my dude, either you want a bond film’s level of action and will not get it in episodic tv land, or you may be going through a tough time right now. It’s not a perfect show but these critiques are just rootless. Lemme try to be more constructive: what are some good characters you’ve seen recently?
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Feb 22, 2023 01:44
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roomtone posted:That's true, but it's not a criticism. You could replace any character with a different character in any story and have the same plot as long as you preserve the core plot elements. Right. Like I said, quote:As far as caring about Joel and Ellie's relationship: the show hasn't really given me a single reason to care about Joel OR Ellie, so why would I care about Joel AND Ellie?
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Feb 22, 2023 01:45
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yeah that's fair enough. for what it's worth, although they're both good actors and have had high points in the show (mostly this last ep), i don't think either pedro or bella have been slam dunk casting for this and the writing is kind of dry, the humour hasn't often landed for me. overall i like the show but i can see not caring about joel and/or ellie. it was the 'they are literally interchangable with anybody else' stuff when you're going off the deep end. cos they're not, they have defined personalities and histories...obviously. you just don't care.
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Feb 22, 2023 01:50
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Boris Galerkin posted:e: Heck I'd prolly enjoy Tess and Ellie's Awesome Adventure more because the actor who plays Tess is awesome. This would rule honestly (as a non game player) I totally agree. I have goon face blindness and it took me going on IMDb after she was already dead to realize it was the Mindhunter chick, which she also ruled in.
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Feb 22, 2023 01:51
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Enderzero posted:Lemme try to be more constructive: what are some good characters you’ve seen recently? An example that comes to mind immediately is the Netflix show Maniac. I thought the overall story was really interesting, and I thought the two main protagonists were well written both as their own characters outright and also as a couple. Both of them were also "regular" people without special laser eye powers or in charge of a secret spy agency. They're just regular people but the show did a really good job at telling me their story, enough that I did care about them and was invested in them both as solo characters and as a pair/duo. They had their own unique backstories and you could NOT find/replace all instances of their characters with any random extra in the background from some random scene and end up with the same overall story.
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Feb 22, 2023 01:53
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Enderzero posted:a smuggler who survived 20 years into the apocalypse and a hardened orphan who might hold the key to humanity’s survival: not interesting, remarkable (!) or mysterious. Infinitely replaceable (why, it could be Tess making dad jokes and getting excited about the idea of airplanes, who would know the difference?). my dude, either you want a bond film’s level of action and will not get it in episodic tv land, or you may be going through a tough time right now. It’s not a perfect show but these critiques are just rootless. Lemme try to be more constructive: what are some good characters you’ve seen recently? (Just using this as a jumping off point, not directly responding to this with everything that follows) Specifically, where the characters interact with a plot in a way that if they were different characters (that aren't written to interact with the plot that way) then the plot would progress differently. Or something. Let's even use Joel and his brother example. His brother might not have gone 'gently caress it' and gone through KC, figured out another way around the problem, and run into different problems as a result. Ellie being a more nervous character who isn't trying to be hopeful even with really knowing that it won't work, a hail mary, would have called the kid out immediately, and caused a conflict between the two pairs since the kid wasn't turned yet. Alternately, Ellie being a more stand-offish sort of character, that kid might not have even bonded with her to trust her enough to show the wound in the first place. It's an extremely bizarre argument when you could literally stop with, 'I'm not personally engaged with the characters' which is AN ABSOLUTELY FINE TAKE. It is extremely rare/impossible media is going to connect with everyone universally. But then to parlay that into some kind of critique of the writing being deficient is where that all just falls to pieces because it doesn't have a basis in the reality of either writing or show/filmmaking. Would seeing alternate scripts by the showrunners/writers using different characters that are fleshed out in said scripts by the and they interact with and push the plot in different directions be an acceptable measure of the overall quality of the writing???
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Feb 22, 2023 01:53
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roomtone posted:That's true, but it's not a criticism. You could replace any character with a different character in any story and have the same plot as long as you preserve the core plot elements. It's not even true! Every single interaction between Joel & Ellie is guided by Joel's trauma at losing his real daughter, Sarah, and not wanting to go through that again. Tommy and Tess would both have completely different relationships with her. I'd go so far as to say it is the guiding principle upon which The Last of Us is based. It's absolutely shocking to me that there would be someone that watches this show without getting that Joel & Ellie are supposed to parallel Joel & Sarah.
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Feb 22, 2023 01:55
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XboxPants posted:It's not even true! Every single interaction between Joel & Ellie is guided by Joel's trauma at losing his real daughter, Sarah, and not wanting to go through that again. Tommy and Tess would both have completely different relationships with her. I'd go so far as to say it is the guiding principle upon which The Last of Us is based. You can even see the way things progressed from when they started out, versus especially three months later. Joel doing just lip service even for stuff that could potentially have a negative consequence like getting shot by a lifelong hunter for stealing a rabbit. Just one half-hearted 'put it back' and her completely ignoring him. More shorthand between them. You can kind of fill in the blanks about how their relationship has developed in that time, and how even Joel still acting like his distant, 'you're just cargo' self, she doesn't react the same anymore to that. Like it's just the old man's sort of way that she finds charming at this point. He had a very similar dynamic with his daughter from what we saw in the first ep. Then he explicitly lays out his feelings on the matter in direct text in a pretty emotional scene where he's talking to maybe the only person in the world left he can trust to even talk to about this stuff, and the two of them get a better understanding of each other, etc etc. It's all there.
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Feb 22, 2023 02:04
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Boris Galerkin posted:An example that comes to mind immediately is the Netflix show Maniac. I thought the overall story was really interesting, and I thought the two main protagonists were well written both as their own characters outright and also as a couple. Both of them were also "regular" people without special laser eye powers or in charge of a secret spy agency. They're just regular people but the show did a really good job at telling me their story, enough that I did care about them and was invested in them both as solo characters and as a pair/duo. They had their own unique backstories and you could NOT find/replace all instances of their characters with any random extra in the background from some random scene and end up with the same overall story. Ok, I get more where you’re coming from, that was solid. Maybe it’s just the nature of road movie style shows where they cover so much ground that not enough time is spent developing the characters, and so only superb examples of it land for you. I personally think there’s been nary a moment where they didn’t act like solid consistent characters, but the time bomb nature of the plot means there isn’t as much people just being people time devoted to development. that said, I do think the material is not landing so squarely that you’re overextending your argument. They definitely have a grasp of characters at least equal to the ‘good’ tiers of shows out there, this isn’t a syfy show or something
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Feb 22, 2023 02:07
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XboxPants posted:It's absolutely shocking to me that there would be someone that watches this show without getting that Joel & Ellie are supposed to parallel Joel & Sarah. I mean yeah that’s the premise of the show. I just don’t care. I cared about cabin couple and bill&frank and some others but joel&ellie are just cardboard cutouts.
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Feb 22, 2023 02:07
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as a player of the game the adaptation has been pretty atrocious so far. there's zombies and stuff but the enemy in the games were mostly ghosts. we saw strawberries i guess but the cherry is far more iconic and no one has even mentioned them, or power-up pellets, all pretty critical aspects of the game lore.
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Feb 22, 2023 02:20
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ozmunkeh posted:I mean yeah that’s the premise of the show. I just don’t care. I cared about cabin couple and bill&frank and some others but joel&ellie are just cardboard cutouts. I think that's fair. People will relate to different things. I watch a lot of gay media and while I enjoyed the Frank & Bill episode, watching yet another tragic maudlin tale of a repressed, lonely man learning to open his heart to gay romance just doesn't land as hard when I'm seeing it for the hundredth time. TBH I'm more invested in Joel & Ellie than I was in them, which I think makes me unusual. The show also relies a lot on implied development. Like, they could spend an episode showing all the trauma that Ellie has gone though. What happened to her family, right? They're all dead, but we didn't see it. What it was like growing up in a Fedra academy? She doesn't talk about it in especially jubilant tones, but they haven't shown it. The few hints we've gotten, though, indicate it was much more militaristic than, say, Bart Simpson's school. If you're thinking about all that, then when Ellie goes into her "generic spunky teenage girl" routine, then you'll instead read it as "scared nervous girl who is trying to be hopeful". But that's only rarely shown directly, so I could see how she'd just come off as shallow and generic if you're looking for the show to explicitly develop it. And there's nothing wrong with expecting that. Explicit development can be great, too! It's just not what they're going for, here.
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Feb 22, 2023 02:24
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Boris Galerkin posted:why would I care about Joel AND Ellie? Because watching them talk and interact is funny and enjoyable
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Feb 22, 2023 02:34
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Kwolok posted:Did you honestly watch that last episode? They clearly have grown very close, but Joel has demons and self-doubt that causes him to push people away, especially those he feels fatherly towards. But in the end that connection they formed still won out and, against his instincts, he took her to the campus. Yeah I'm enjoying the show, it's not a big deal. I like the actors, and I understand Joel has a lot of issues. But he doesn't event trust her to stand watch? Surely he would have to, at some stage, after 3+ months? I know they used that as a way to show him failing, but it was a clumsy way to do it, and made it seem like they aren't that close. Maybe I'm a weirdo but after 3+ intense months with just one other person they'd either be dead or my best buddy. Yes he doesn't want to let people get close, especially a young girl, but she had a loving PUN joke book. It's impossible to resist that poo poo.
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Feb 22, 2023 02:34
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Yeah I mean this man whose daughter was senselessly murdered saw a similar-looking woman from a distance who would roughly be his daughter's age, then a toddler runs up to her and we get to see the anguish on his face from seeing this vision of what he could have had in life. But like why should I even care?
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Feb 22, 2023 02:50
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Red Rox posted:Yeah I'm enjoying the show, it's not a big deal. I like the actors, and I understand Joel has a lot of issues. But he doesn't event trust her to stand watch? Surely he would have to, at some stage, after 3+ months? I know they used that as a way to show him failing, but it was a clumsy way to do it, and made it seem like they aren't that close. Pedro Pascal is playing that conflict with amazing nuance. He loves Ellie at that point, without thinking. But he's emotionally incapable of thinking about it. It's just business. It's not his problem. These are lies that keep away the pain and fear of caring about someone. It's only when he admits everything and begins to break down in the second conversation with his brother that these emotions begin to become undeniable. And even then, he acts like he can fix the pain just by putting her out of his life. It's an incredibly compelling emotional situation very well acted. And all that said, I can understand if it doesn't resonate, or you don't get it due to a lack of personal connection or any number of other things. But all that is going on in this show. They didn't just accidentally forget to put pathos into it. Oh, I just realized I almost forgot to address you specific issue- presumably they've been in safer situations where he trusted her to watch (without a gun), but he was on edge in this case after all that 'river of death' stuff and overestimated his abilities. The suggestion that he rely on her while he's anxious instantly begins to bring up the idea of failing to protect someone he cares about and he shuts down and chose an irrational course of action to avoid the pain.
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Feb 22, 2023 02:50
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Red Rox posted:Yeah I'm enjoying the show, it's not a big deal. I like the actors, and I understand Joel has a lot of issues. But he doesn't event trust her to stand watch? Surely he would have to, at some stage, after 3+ months? I know they used that as a way to show him failing, but it was a clumsy way to do it, and made it seem like they aren't that close. He doesn't trust her to stand watch because he wants to protect her. He doesn't view her as an equal but as a child in his care and whom he is starting to care for. And she is co-dependent on him as well. Its not a goood relationship, but it is a very messy and real relationship. Like the criticism boils down to "These characters are bad and I just don't know why I am meant to care about them." As though they are 2d cardboard written characters. We are given a ton of backstory, trauma, molding, and shaping events. We know explicitly who they are, they are relatively dynamic and well-written, if a bit cliche'd, characters. If you don't like them, thats fine, but claiming the show would give you "no reaosn to like them," is an argument that has no merit or ground. Its a show about regular, flawed people thrown into an impossible situation. They are developed, grounded, and hosed up people. They are well established. Is it ground breaking character writing? No, but its much better than most TV and if you could manage an argument for why you think they are not compelling, outside of nebulous "I dunno I just don't care for them", that would be great, I'd read it.
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Feb 22, 2023 02:59
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i get it about Joel, he's the mandalorian without any mystery to make him interesting. we found out what motivates him in ep 1 and the show's only attempt at characterizing him in later episodes is to remind the viewer that he couldn't protect his daughter so he's going on a road trip with elle. there's nothing else to him to really connect with. just another wasteland misanthrope.
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Feb 22, 2023 03:14
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My biggest disconnect with this past episode was that Mr. "I'm afraid of losing my pseudo-adopted daughter" didn't nope the gently caress out of a supposed paramilitary stronghold being completely undefended, or at least do some rudimentary recon before riding in. His  -o-meter should've been going batshit when they didn't see any patrols.I mean, earlier in the episode he had smarts enough to let a shot ring out to see what's what before crossing The River of Death, but here it's all "oh hey, let's ride right in."
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Feb 22, 2023 03:15
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Eiba posted:Oh, I just realized I almost forgot to address you specific issue- presumably they've been in safer situations where he trusted her to watch (without a gun), but he was on edge in this case after all that 'river of death' stuff and overestimated his abilities. The suggestion that he rely on her while he's anxious instantly begins to bring up the idea of failing to protect someone he cares about and he shuts down and chose an irrational course of action to avoid the pain. It's also important that this happened right after he woke up. In a more calm situation, like when they're driving in the car for hours with no and nothing in sight for hours, he might let his guard down a little bit. Then he'd be able to have a discussion with her about when and if she can take a watch shift, instead of immediately shooting down the idea. But they establish later in the episode that he's having recurring PTSD flashback dreams every night. He wakes up freaked out every morning, so when he wakes up in that state, and isn't even sure what's happening because he fell asleep accidentally, then yeah, he's gonna come down hard on Ellie and say she absolutely can never keep watch in any situation. Again, we don't learn that until later, but I think Pascal still does a good job showing that he's in a panic there. Compare their discussion there about whether he'd teach her how to watch, vs their discussion about whether he'd teach her to hunt. With the hunting, he again shuts her down at first, but when she pushes he relaxes a bit and starts talking about why he thinks she'd have trouble hunting, what she'd be good at, what she'd need to learn, etc. Or when he's teaching her to shoot later. He does trust her, he just has to not be panicking about losing her at the moment. Which is an issue he has because he thinks he'll fail again; he doesn't trust himself, not her. Remember he just loss Tess, too. Ellie could have proven herself a hundred times and he'd still be worried that he'll fail and put her in danger. And that's a bit self-centered and disrespectful to her, but that gives him more depth. Also Ellie IS a 14 year old girl with very little experience. I mean, he has a point.
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Feb 22, 2023 03:38
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BIG HEADLINE posted:My biggest disconnect with this past episode was that Mr. "I'm afraid of losing my pseudo-adopted daughter" didn't nope the gently caress out of a supposed paramilitary stronghold being completely undefended, or at least do some rudimentary recon before riding in. His Similarly I've gotta admit their insistence of driving, walking and riding in the most wide-open spaces, visible for miles around, has been a little hard to watch in this world where man is the real deadly fungus. That said I guess I'm glad it hasn't been 6 episodes of everybody whispering and sneaking from valley to valley in ghillie suits and gas masks.
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Feb 22, 2023 03:38
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BIG HEADLINE posted:My biggest disconnect with this past episode was that Mr. "I'm afraid of losing my pseudo-adopted daughter" didn't nope the gently caress out of a supposed paramilitary stronghold being completely undefended, or at least do some rudimentary recon before riding in. His Yeah this did occur to me too. If he thinks it's safe, then why isn't he shouting out for the Fireflies or otherwise trying to make his presence known to contact them? If he DOESN'T think it's safe enough to do that, then why is he just walking in through the front door? But whatever, at this point I'm not watching this show expecting interesting action set pieces. It's cool to see them so we establish Joel's competency, and see Ellie learning, and so we can build up the danger of the world a bit... but if we have to choose, I'd rather they skim over the tactical scenes and focus on the slice of life than vice versa. XboxPants fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Feb 22, 2023 |
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Feb 22, 2023 03:45
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Remy Marathe posted:Similarly I've gotta admit their insistence of driving, walking and riding in the most wide-open spaces, visible for miles around, has been a little hard to watch in this world where man is the real deadly fungus. It’s pretty, but there are trees right there!
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Feb 22, 2023 03:51
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If there is anything around them at all, a human or a fungzomb is going to duck out behind something. He has a long range rifle, if I'm not mistaken it looks to be a Pewmaster 454 with a walnut stock and a mithril barrel. Hiding out when they are sleeping makes sense because you don't want something casually strolling by you while you sleep. And are you talking about him walking into Jackson, where {deleted scene} Tara just asked him if his brother looked like him and then said, sure you can come inside and probably had some vague conversation with him along the way? Or are you talking about {deleted scene} where Tara cross examines his brother to understand why he is escorting Ellie through dangerous country and Joel is staying behind with her?
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Feb 22, 2023 03:57
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Remy Marathe posted:Similarly I've gotta admit their insistence of driving, walking and riding in the most wide-open spaces, visible for miles around, has been a little hard to watch in this world where man is the real deadly fungus. I still haven't gotten over Kansas City.
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Feb 22, 2023 03:58
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I'm glad we don't have to watch them tactically crawling through bushes because of *realism*.
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Feb 22, 2023 04:02
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