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HundredBears posted:Time-to-kill is so low and the player's ability to focus damage on a few sections so high that I don't see too much value in concentrating that damage into a few hits. Lots of the time, an enemy mech isn't going to get a chance to attack in between when you start shooting at it seriously and when it dies, so blowing off an arm doesn't actually do much and the only crits that matter are ammo explosions. In that sort of environment, big packets of damage are higher-variance: more likely to blow off a leg or destroy a side torso while its arm still has lots of health, but also more likely to spread most of their damage across pristine sections on the wrong side when shooting from the front or to waste damage on a high-health arm when the side torso that it's attached to only has 40 structure left. They're no doubt still positive expected value, but given how much the game is structured so that the median result (of a contract, an engagement, or just a few volleys) is favorable to the player, I'm much more interested in decreasing the chances and severity of below-average outcomes than looking for above-average ones. This is just silly. Spreading damage is always bad, and the more damage packets you throw the more they are going to distribute to the hit location probability mean. Knocking off an arm or side torso isn't useless because TTK is low, it's a thing that inherently decreases TTK. Missing a section will concentrate further damage. Plus legging is a free called shot and nothing's a faster kill than called shots. AC20s and UAC20s are openers, not the finisher. 100 damage hits are at the very least exposing a weakness, which can be followed by either a flanker (side hits to go after the same location), a CT called shot, or sandpaper to do that last 40 points of structure damage via brute force. And whatever tactics you use to concentrate damage with low-damage packets (flanking) work equally well for high damage. HundredBears posted:I agree that the recoil isn't a very important disadvantage (and may still be overestimating how much of one it is, because I'm only using UAC/20s early in a career where I have limited weapon options and my pilots are staying around Guts 5) nor would I say that dealing damage in big chunks is useless. I just don't see how it's anything more than a minor benefit compared to an extra 270 meters of range. The ability to divide-and-conquer enemies, play games with initiative and line-of-sight so much more easily, do spotter and sniper shenanigans, kite shorter-ranged enemy mechs or just kill them while they're trying to close, get into range a turn early on ambush convoy missions, engage a lance in a defend base contract early while you're still close to the base and then be able to turn around and quickly get into range of the lance coming from the opposite direction, etc. is quite valuable. I agree with all of this though. The funny thing is I don't actually like using all min-range max-damage builds myself, because I find the gameplay pretty boring and one-note. So I play mech and pilot builds with variety, mixed ranges, and some of those tactical methods. I use PPCs! Not just snubbies, regular ones! (With a 30 heat mod though.) OTOH I recognize that most of those tactics are also things things you only need to do when you're avoiding "optimal" builds. The stock game just doesn't punish short range, for a variety of reasons, so selling out on ML/SRM/AC20 is the best way to for example take 4 mediums to 5-star battles. Captain Oblivious posted:Two UAC2s and two ERMLs is the same damage for less heat at better range than a UAC20. Same net slots used too. Uh, you wanna check that math again? ERML 35d 20h 1t UAC2 50d 8h 7t UAC20 200d 48h 15t (And that even doesn't get into 4 pieces of lostech vs 1. If you can buy any piece of lostech you want in whatever quantity, throw 3 DHS in with the UAC20.)
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Feb 22, 2023 16:22
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Captain Oblivious posted:Two UAC2s and two ERMLs is the same damage for less heat at better range than a UAC20. Same net slots used too. Excellent post/username combo
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Feb 22, 2023 16:28
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I've played enough BTA 3062 to notice that the mission type and opponent affects the composition of the OpFor (relative tonnage and # of units and ratio of Bmechs/Industrials/Vehicles), but right now it's just a vague sense. Is there a guide to help me pick when to fish for salvage versus taking as many C-Bills as I can? EDIT: Also, got through my first duel, so thx for the advice. SirPhoebos fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Feb 22, 2023 |
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Feb 22, 2023 16:40
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I have found personally that the single impact weapons are significantly more lethal than their multi-shot cousins. Because yeah a stray AC20 hit will just blow limbs clean off a lot of light and medium mechs from full health, whereas that same damage spread over several impacts will not. Damage clustering is pretty useful.
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Feb 22, 2023 16:49
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Of course it is, at the low end of damage math. LBX2s versus AC2s, etc, there's an argument there When the multishot weapon is a UAC20 there is no situation where a regular AC20 is superior 
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Feb 22, 2023 16:58
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Oh yeah if you can output sheer volume of damage that's even better because then you aren't dependent on chance that you hit something vulnerable enough to be destroyed in a single hit, if you can turn the entire mech into fine particulates with your alpha strike then who cares.
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Feb 22, 2023 17:05
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The rule of thumb in HBS is the exact same as the rule of thumb in tabletop. You open up holes with your big, fat punchy weapons, then you exploit those holes with your smaller weapons. That Hunchback with 8 Medium Lasers is scary with its damage output, no doubt, but there's a reason why many people's first impulse upon seeing the OG with the AC20 is 'oh god kill it before it rips my 'Mech in half'.
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Feb 22, 2023 17:09
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Correct. Everyone please remember that you can reorganize your weapons in the list so that the LBX2s fire *after* the twin gauss rifles
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Feb 22, 2023 17:25
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Rorahusky posted:The rule of thumb in HBS is the exact same as the rule of thumb in tabletop. I'll keep beating the "HBSBT aimed shot changes the calculus" drum, because it's one of those cases where having multiple weapons can actually be better. If you've got a 65% chance to hit CT on a 9 tac aimed shot pilot (numbers maybe higher in vanilla, I've been playing BEX so that's what's in my head) then you can pretty reasonably expect a more or less consistent output from a ML hunch. The AC20 hunch is going to on paper have the same average output, but the big spikes make it feel less consistent. Sometimes you'll slap the CT, sometimes you'll xcom it up and land on that other 45%.
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Feb 22, 2023 17:27
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Cyrano4747 posted:I'll keep beating the "HBSBT aimed shot changes the calculus" drum, because it's one of those cases where having multiple weapons can actually be better. If you've got a 65% chance to hit CT on a 9 tac aimed shot pilot (numbers maybe higher in vanilla, I've been playing BEX so that's what's in my head) then you can pretty reasonably expect a more or less consistent output from a ML hunch. The AC20 hunch is going to on paper have the same average output, but the big spikes make it feel less consistent. Sometimes you'll slap the CT, sometimes you'll xcom it up and land on that other 45%. I use BTA, where Aimed Shots is locked behind one particular pilot ability late in the tree
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Feb 22, 2023 18:07
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Cyrano4747 posted:I'll keep beating the "HBSBT aimed shot changes the calculus" drum, because it's one of those cases where having multiple weapons can actually be better. If you've got a 65% chance to hit CT on a 9 tac aimed shot pilot (numbers maybe higher in vanilla, I've been playing BEX so that's what's in my head) then you can pretty reasonably expect a more or less consistent output from a ML hunch. Called shots are huge, but you don't get a called shot with every mech every turn. Like, in any "what is best" dick-measuring contest where you include called shots, the best is to have a marauder headcapper that zots 1 mech per turn all by itself with a 95% success rate using your called shot, and the other 3 mechs that do normal fightin' stuff to regain morale. (IMO this is yet another boring as gently caress way to play the game, but it's very optimal.) OTOH even in the absence of called shots the small-packet stuff is 100% viable. You just have to care about position and flanking a lot. Like, a build style I always have is a jumpy flanker, which use SRMs and some MLs for spike damage. They don't jump in and unload unless they have flank or rear attacks, or can shoot something with a hole in it. Cyrano4747 posted:The AC20 hunch is going to on paper have the same average output, but the big spikes make it feel less consistent. Sometimes you'll slap the CT, sometimes you'll xcom it up and land on that other 45%. And sometimes you'll roll a headshot on a regular attack and cackle like a madman. I dunno, big swings are a two way street. I definitely wouldn't advocate for an all-AC20 (or even UAC20) lance, but they're a good weapon.
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Feb 22, 2023 18:16
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You're not getting a called shot with every mech every turn, but by mid game you should be consistently getting one of your mechs called shotting every turn, between morale bonuses and cockpit equipment. Most of the time I run one mech optimized for CT call shot core outs and the others all get sustainable DPS builds to tear down the enemy the old fashioned way. Done right you can consistently eliminate at least one enemy mech a turn, and done really well you can handle two. I'm ignoring the marauder headshot gimmick because it feels like every mod nerfs the poo poo out of headshots called shots in general, and frankly it's kinda needed. edit: If you really want to min-max killing mechs without called shot in HBSBT the key is to focus fire from the side. You might end up having to chew through an arm or a leg, but once you're into torso everything funnels into CT. Just cutting down the number of potential hit locations to 4 from 8 is pretty big if you're brute forcing it.
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Feb 22, 2023 19:02
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A cicada kicking everyone in the shins and shooting them in the back also works quite well.
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Feb 22, 2023 19:22
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personally I never called shot, as the annihlator has no need for it
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Feb 22, 2023 19:28
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Psycho Landlord posted:Excellent post/username combo Mmmm? I’m simply correct though. 230 for the UAC2s and ERMLs vs the 240 of the UAC20. Better range and binomial probability favors the multiple shots of the former grouping for coring out mechs. It’s objectively better.
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Feb 22, 2023 19:50
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Going off the provided numbers of: ERML 35d 20h 1t UAC2 50d 8h 7t UAC20 200d 48h 15t 2 ERML + UAC2 = 170 damage, 56h, 16t vs 1 UAC20's 200d, 48h, 15t I wouldn't say no to either, though
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Feb 22, 2023 19:59
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All I know is in my current MW5 campaign (with mods) I have a star league King Crab with two UAC/20s and it deals an insane amount of damage, better TTK than any of my other assaults. It just wants things to be within 600m. Thankfully the average engagement ranges in MW5 are crazy short.
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Feb 22, 2023 20:21
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Floppychop posted:All I know is in my current MW5 campaign (with mods) I have a star league King Crab with two UAC/20s and it deals an insane amount of damage, better TTK than any of my other assaults. It just wants things to be within 600m. Thankfully the average engagement ranges in MW5 are crazy short. In Mechwarrior 5 you absolutely want big damage single shot weapons because you are an elite mechwarrior and can click center mass and or heads Battletech is a bit different and there's merit to the argument of sandpapering vs maximizing single point damage, even if this thread's version of said argument is somewhat oblivious
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Feb 22, 2023 20:25
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Captain Oblivious posted:Mmmm? I’m simply correct though. 230 for the UAC2s and ERMLs vs the 240 of the UAC20. Better range and binomial probability favors the multiple shots of the former grouping for coring out mechs. It’s objectively better. lmao at this point between HBS BT, 3 different mega-mods, and MW5 we're all talking about different games
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Feb 22, 2023 20:40
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Klyith posted:lmao at this point between HBS BT, 3 different mega-mods, and MW5 we're all talking about different games Don't forget TT! 
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Feb 22, 2023 20:51
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gotta say everyone oohing and aahing over the hatchetman at the end of Joint Venture hits a bit different when it took one single punch, the only damage it received the entire fight, to the CT from a near limbless griffin and promptly blew the gently caress apart because of course someone put ammo there
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Feb 23, 2023 03:52
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Psycho Landlord posted:gotta say everyone oohing and aahing over the hatchetman at the end of Joint Venture hits a bit different when it took one single punch, the only damage it received the entire fight, to the CT from a near limbless griffin and promptly blew the gently caress apart because of course someone put ammo there I remember seeing it for the first time and thinking what an incredible piece of poo poo it was
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Feb 23, 2023 04:01
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I mean in universe it makes sense to give a poo poo about it because new designs were stupid rare and all but I do think it's hilarious that there's no change in dialogue even if it gets brutally owned
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Feb 23, 2023 04:04
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Psycho Landlord posted:I mean in universe it makes sense to give a poo poo about it because new designs were stupid rare and all but I do think it's hilarious that there's no change in dialogue even if it gets brutally owned 400 years and it didn't occur to anyone to put the ammo anywhere else
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Feb 23, 2023 04:08
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I mean at that tech level it didn't really matter where it was, an ammo explosion was an ammo explosion Real glad HBS battletech gave everything demi-CASE tbh
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Feb 23, 2023 04:09
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Psycho Landlord posted:gotta say everyone oohing and aahing over the hatchetman at the end of Joint Venture hits a bit different when it took one single punch, the only damage it received the entire fight, to the CT from a near limbless griffin and promptly blew the gently caress apart because of course someone put ammo there  Battletech.png.
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Feb 23, 2023 04:59
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Psycho Landlord posted:In Mechwarrior 5 you absolutely want big damage single shot weapons because you are an elite mechwarrior and can click center mass and or heads Yup. MW5 is a way different environment. Big ungainly bruisers like the Banshee 3S and the Battlemaster are excellent in MW5 due to shorter engagement ranges and the ability to, well, aim. Whereas BT heavily favors just Called Shotting from across the map into CT or head with larger quantities of mid damage weapons rather than fewer larger damage weapons for consistent coring and headcapping before anyone gets to do anything. Also Gauss and LBX are actually worth using in MW5, instead of basically joke weapons. Overall I would say I prefer MW5 but HBS Battletech is a fun filler activity. Biggest tragedy of MW5 is that the Annihilator is just too slow to be really useable. It’s hilarious but totally impractical. Captain Oblivious fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Feb 23, 2023 |
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Feb 23, 2023 05:34
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Didn't realise there was MW5 discussion happening here so forgive me if this sort of thing has been discussed a bunch recently but - Tried some Career co-op with a friend last night, started as Kurita, started making a little progress and then took an Assassination mission for our like, 5th contract where the difficulty seemed to skyrocket and all our mechs got absolutely wrecked in seconds by a ton of enemies just rolling in on us. Can someone give me some general pointers? I accept that it also might just be a skill issue and I'm super bad at Mechwarrior. What's the best faction to start with for a gentle on-ramp? Does the difficulty always spike so hard and fast? What should I be looking out for early on that might indicate I'm about to bite off more than I can chew? I've got the first 2 DLCs, do they add stuff that makes it harder/should I be turning them off?
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Feb 23, 2023 06:08
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Mode 7 posted:Didn't realise there was MW5 discussion happening here so forgive me if this sort of thing has been discussed a bunch recently but - So the general rule of thumb is that you most likely won’t get big difficulty spikes in MW5 unless you head into a conflict zone of a much higher rep level. As for easiest on ramp…the easiest start is to start Davion then as soon as humanly possible fly north into Kurita space to the Valentina system to get a free Wolverine, a medium mech. It’s an easter egg and helps grease the wheels a bit. The Davion start is VERY close to Valentina. The dlcs don’t DIRECTLY make the game harder no, you should definitely not turn them off. What you should be aware of though is that they added new mission types which ARE a bit harder but can be avoided if you are still Babby mode. Scorched Earth is a harder version of Demolition, Warzone is Battlefield but harder, Garrison Duty is Defense+, and Targeted Kill is Assassinate+. They all tend to have higher tempos and tougher fights than their lesser versions. Beachhead missions are also frequently a bit rough in the early stages. But for the most part I don’t think anything unusual happened in your case. Just sounds like inexperience. It can be an unforgiving game early on.
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Feb 23, 2023 06:13
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Speaking of suddenly difficult missions, I ran into one where I got hit by a swarm of helicopters and tanks, I've never seen anything like it. They chewed through my rocket boat instantly, killing the maxed out elite pilot and causing 8 million worth of damage to the mech. Everyone else finished the mission with minimal damage somehow.
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Feb 23, 2023 06:25
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Psycho Landlord posted:gotta say everyone oohing and aahing over the hatchetman at the end of Joint Venture hits a bit different when it took one single punch, the only damage it received the entire fight, to the CT from a near limbless griffin and promptly blew the gently caress apart because of course someone put ammo there That pilot always being named “Matchstick” has to be intentional.
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Feb 23, 2023 06:26
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Captain Oblivious posted:Biggest tragedy of MW5 is that the Annihilator is just too slow to be really useable. It’s hilarious but totally impractical. Just install yaml and load up with MASC and TSM, enjoy your 100kph annihilator
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Feb 23, 2023 06:35
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Ensign Expendable posted:Speaking of suddenly difficult missions, I ran into one where I got hit by a swarm of helicopters and tanks, I've never seen anything like it. They chewed through my rocket boat instantly, killing the maxed out elite pilot and causing 8 million worth of damage to the mech. Everyone else finished the mission with minimal damage somehow. Assuming this is MW5… So early on, you kind of learn to treat tanks and helicopters as inconsequential gnats. This is a mistake. You need to learn the high priority targets. The bigger tanks and vtols are basically glass cannons. They are: SRM Carriers. An SRM60 can gently caress your whole day if disregarded Manticore/Pattons/Demolishers: These are your heavy tanks. Some of them are gonna be loaded with poo poo like AC20s, perhaps multiple even (Demolishers do this). I’m 99% sure there’s a fourth heavy tank that I’m totally blanking on the name for. Igors: Igors are the heavy tanks of the sky. Kill them immediately. Psycho Landlord posted:Just install yaml and load up with MASC and TSM, enjoy your 100kph annihilator Naw. YAML is butts.
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Feb 23, 2023 06:36
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Yes, that was MW5, and also YAML rules.
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Feb 23, 2023 06:41
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BTA 3062 Update: Thanks to a Clash of the Titans mission, I blew past the 'breaking into Heavies' goal. I am now the proud owner of an Atlas. 
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Feb 23, 2023 07:13
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Psycho Landlord posted:gotta say everyone oohing and aahing over the hatchetman at the end of Joint Venture hits a bit different when it took one single punch, the only damage it received the entire fight, to the CT from a near limbless griffin and promptly blew the gently caress apart because of course someone put ammo there Hatchetman is best mech because it could be so easy to make a rocketman cover for it
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Feb 23, 2023 09:13
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Psycho Landlord posted:gotta say everyone oohing and aahing over the hatchetman at the end of Joint Venture hits a bit different when it took one single punch, the only damage it received the entire fight, to the CT from a near limbless griffin and promptly blew the gently caress apart because of course someone put ammo there I wish the Hatchetman was good in either game lmao. It’s probably more fitting that it not be, I suppose.
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Feb 23, 2023 09:25
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Hatchetman is p nice in tt for being the bv-cheapest lbx10 carrier you can find but it still isn’t great
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Feb 23, 2023 13:44
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It's even funnier when you remember its introduction in the novels as a Davion wonder weapon and the first of many marvels to come from NAIS, shining the light of
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Feb 23, 2023 18:19
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Is it feasible, in vanilla campaign, to just stick a bunch of AC-whatevers on a mech? I dunno, I have an AC-20 on one and it being able to alpha strike light mechs and sheer off armor of everything else just makes me laugh - it's super satisfying. Another question: what function do LRM boats serve as? I've tried building out a centurion as one (standard parts, no +'s) and I've been pretty disappointed in it. Am I missing something? Yeah it's cool they can stay behind cover and all that but regular and stability damage seems to be negligible and that mech would be better served with some other weapons on it. I'm wrapping my head around everything slowly but surely and further specializing mechs for alpha damage for precision strikes and ones that are missile boats that serve to knock enemies down. Then I the AC monstrosities as a wild card: sometimes they annihilate the enemy and sometimes they annihilate the hill behind the enemy!
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Feb 23, 2023 18:36
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