crepeface posted:

there are probably at least a few good faith lurkers who would appreciate a rebuttal

GSV gently caress Your God posted:

The war is being conducted in part with the purpose to extinguish the Ukrainian national identity and all five of these criteria of genocide have been committed towards that end:

*Killing members of the group;
*Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
*Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
*Imposing measures intended to prevent births withing the group;
*Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

crepeface posted:

there are probably at least a few good faith lurkers who would appreciate a rebuttal

Endman posted:

these people don't exist

e:

GSV gently caress Your God posted:

Okay, so you love genocide and are a moral monster. Understood.

Dreylad posted:

Not on that subject, no, but he did research to support Bloodlands. My example was to demonstrate that even he has his limits about what kind of claims he'll support.

Raskolnikov38 posted:

you left out an important part
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

otherwise you end up in stupid logic traps like: the allied campaign nazi germany was a genocide

crepeface posted:

there are probably at least a few good faith lurkers who would appreciate a rebuttal

Cuttlefush posted:

they do

Cao Ni Ma posted:

I want to know why its this particular war that awakens this EVE goonlord from his political slumber when every armed conflict ticks every box in his genocide list.

When say for example significantly more civilians died in Afghanistan, pretty sure that even at the very end we had soldiers kidnap kids from their parents as they up and left. And america is still starving afghanistan to this day.

Endman posted:

please show me the lurkers, mr cuttlefush

GSV gently caress Your God posted:

I did not leave that out, I summarized it in a single line. A discussion of the "mental element: the 'intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"; and' is contained within the video I posted above.

GSV gently caress Your God posted:

They were not done with the intent to erase a national, ethnic, religious, etc. identity.

GSV gently caress Your God posted:

They were not done with the intent to erase a national, ethnic, religious, etc. identity.

Ardennes posted:

I am just looking through the endnotes now, and it is worse than I thought. It really has very very little in Russian and almost nothing from the Soviet archives. Also, a lot of it is literature. I don't think it is real research to be honest considering the subject, there should be a standard for a monograph that is making significant claims.

Cthulu Carl posted:

I dunno what's goin' on with the "So you love genocide and want to marry it" dude, but I'd still like to know the thread stance on pierogi and possibly even borshch.

And probably learn other things too.

CODChimera posted:

someone ask in SAD if we can get a new ik for the thread

lobster shirt posted:

pierogi are good, pelmeni with smetana is one of my favorite foods, borshch is ok, shchi is good soup. is that what you want. are you happy to read this post.

GSV gently caress Your God posted:

oh no, people don't like genocide

Neurolimal posted:

Most of the GBS thread hatereads this one, so its worth briefly touching on why Snyder is a grotesque hack, who is only tolerated because his 'research' was beneficial to EEuropean nationalists post-USSR. First I'd recommend Israeli historian Omer Bartov's review, of which you can read a sample of here, for a critique from someone who is stern on the USSR (but not rabidly aggressive) and boasts a respectable pedigree. If you do desire a more aggressively anti-communist critique, you could look into British historian Richard J. Evans' review of the book, who manages to quote fascist enabler Anne Applebaum's work while still calling out Snyder's ham-handed attempt to equivocate the Holocaust & Holodomor as equal racial purges. Esteemed American philosopher Thomas Kuhn's Great Men and Large Numbers: Undertheorising a History of Mass Killing not only equates Snyder's """"work"""" to the earliest iterations of Double Genocide Theory, but also critiques the pulp as lacking the local nuance that was vital to the execution of the Holocaust & the incompetence of the Holodomor. Israeli-German historian Dan Diner's Topography of Interpretation: Reviewing Timothy Snyder's Bloodlands derides the book as presenting it as a polono-centric reimagining of the war & its associated events.

Evans has a particularly scathing comment on Snyder's intent:

Richard J. Evans posted:

The prose style in which he conveys his facts doesn't help: the endless succession of short sentences hits us like a series of blows from a cudgel until eventually brain death sets in. The same phrases and formulations are repeated over and over again in an almost incantatory fashion. as if Snyder doesn't want us to think critically about what he is telling us, just to feel the pain of what he is describing.

These are just a few of the critiques levied towards Snyder's story. Jacques Sémelin has organized several more. He lightly touches on each critique, while playing dumb about why Snyder chooses to omit several events and regions (perhaps to appear less biased) which dismantle the equivocation. And these are just the criticisms from politically moderate (even, in some ways, conservative) and accredited historians & philosophers. Younger historians, less prone to the revisionism inflicted upon Eastern Europe, are significantly more scathing.

Snyder's work is trash. Useful trash, if your goal is to kickstart a new nationalist legacy after the collapse of the USSR, but trash nonetheless. It belongs at the bottom of a toilet. You should be skeptical of anyone who has read it and left with a positive impression. The good news is that the odds of anyone in the GBS thread having read it is very low, and that it's likely only recommended because it's That Soviet Genocide Book.

Cthulu Carl posted:

I'm never truly happy, but this will do, thank you.

F Stop Fitzgerald posted:

GSV gently caress Your God posted:

I did not leave that out, I summarized it in a single line. A discussion of the "mental element: the 'intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"; and' is contained within the video I posted above.

quote:

18:52
by the way genocide is met if any of the following crimes have been committed okay so the first one is killing members
18:58
of the group this has obviously happened the war itself the bombing from the sky the missiles
19:06
and the drones directed at civilians in mariupole alone it looks like more than 100 000 civilians were killed in
19:14
one city alone the executions everywhere that Russia occupied territory the death pits which
19:20
are found again and again in small and medium-sized places that the Russians occupied
19:26
the targeted killings of people regarded as being active in Ukrainian Civil Society
19:32
the filtration camps in which people regarded as politically active or simply men of a certain age are taken out and
19:39
killed all of these things amount to killing members of a group

quote:

21:24
the third Criterion of genocide is a crime
21:30
is deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical
21:36
destruction in whole or in part again this is obviously the case the
21:43
deliberate destruction of whole cities The Campaign which is unfolding right
21:48
now to deny ukrainians access to water and electricity over the winter those
21:54
are the conditions of life and again Russian propagandists Russian
22:00
politicians make no secret about this they boast that this is what they are
22:05
doing they say it openly

GSV gently caress Your God posted:

They were not done with the intent to erase a national, ethnic, religious, etc. identity.

Horseshoe theory posted:

A modest proposal: destroy GBS other than the Simpsons memes thread.

lobster shirt posted:

i have those exact same glasses

Raskolnikov38 posted:

alright i didn't watch the video and i'm just skimming the transcript function from youtube but this bit i think highlights the disconnect between the two sides on this issue

now if the section about filtration camps and murder are true then yeah he and you have a point. the problem is i have not seen evidence of russians comitting mass killings at the filtration camps, i cannot find news articles about mass killings, and what i can find about the camps points to them sucking rear end to be in but they're not auschwitz or katyn.

skimming through the next couple of minutes he offers no proof or evidence of his killings claim and then he says this

if this counts as "bringing about the destruction of the group in whole or in part" then every bombing campaign by the allies in ww2 was a genocide, the bombing of haiphong during vietnam was a genocide, and the second battle of fallujah was a genocide

mlmp08 posted:

but the crab thread

mlmp08 posted:

but the crab thread

Cthulu Carl posted:

I dunno what's goin' on with the "So you love genocide and want to marry it" dude, but I'd still like to know the thread stance on pierogi and possibly even borshch.

And probably learn other things too.

Neurolimal posted:

Someone asked for a post stressing how much Tim Snyder sucks, in the absence of a better one heres mine from last thread:

Some Guy TT posted:

https://twitter.com/The_Real_Fly/status/1629333904011194368

z man laying down sick burns against tankies everywhere