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Zopotantor posted:Was that Nah, that dude was some lawyer who was convinced that the ancients were morally and intellectually superior and when it was pointed out that slaves and the lower class didn't live such hot-shot lives he claimed he would definitely have been born a noble back then. Definitely. New Jersey dude was convinced that all human evil flowed from Rome, so polar opposites in some ways really. He was also a dumbass who took it seriously when someone joked that if he wanted to submit his findings as a research paper (which he was talking about doing) he should slip a $20 bill in with his submission and decried yet more corruption in the world.
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Feb 27, 2023 21:39
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A_Bluenoser posted:Ah, I thought it was more class-based than ethnicity-based but I must confess that I could never actually be arsed to pay much attention to the details of his drivel. his first post in this thread was about how the dorians are the best greeks, and he gets extremely mad at the notion that a boetian might have ever done anything impressive
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Feb 27, 2023 22:15
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Cyrano4747 posted:I'd just ask there, chances are that there's someone who will not only have a solid answer, but probably a pithy citation where some ancient roman shakes his fist at those hillbillies in Hispania talking all wrong. Quite a lot of introductory background and material here: https://antigonejournal.com/2022/05/latin-accent/ And for the actual scholarly equivalent: https://www.amazon.com/Regional-Diversification-Latin-200-BC/dp/1107684587
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Feb 28, 2023 01:52
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Thanks, that first one in particular is an interesting read.
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Feb 28, 2023 02:38
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How is Bing's advice in this thread? https://twitter.com/emollick/status/1629867432872386561?s=20
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Feb 28, 2023 02:46
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Well it did a poo poo load better than ChatGPT https://acoup.blog/2023/02/17/collections-on-chatgpt/
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Feb 28, 2023 02:58
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Kevin DuBrow posted:I'm not familiar with him specifically but Giordano studied under Jusepe de Ribera. Much like Giordano's Chilon, Ribera did many paintings of "wise men" such as philosophers and saints, and his models for these were normal peasants and old men. He was known for not shying away from ugliness—wrinkles, fat, and dirt were depicted in a raw style. Sure Chiron looks ugly, but that reinforces the idea that he's a man who's lived a long life, experienced much and isn't concerned with his own beauty. Thank you, I wasn't actually expecting an answer!
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Feb 28, 2023 04:54
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Ras Het posted:There's Oscan graffiti in Pompeii, so first century AD This may be the latest definitive thing, yeah. We also know Etruscan culture still existed as its own distinct thing into the 400s AD but we don't know if anyone was still speaking the language past the first century.
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Feb 28, 2023 14:56
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Grand Fromage posted:This may be the latest definitive thing, yeah. We also know Etruscan culture still existed as its own distinct thing into the 400s AD but we don't know if anyone was still speaking the language past the first century. Wait was Etruscan Italic? I thought it was kinda a mystery like Basque.
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Mar 1, 2023 12:03
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galagazombie posted:Wait was Etruscan Italic? I thought it was kinda a mystery like Basque. It seems to be a language isolate. It's in Italy so it's Italic.  But yes I missed that part. Etruscan is not Indo-European, probably predates their arrival. Or an ancestor of it anyway. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 14:13 on Mar 1, 2023 |
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Mar 1, 2023 14:06
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galagazombie posted:What’s the latest we know of an Italic language still existing that wasn’t a Romance language?
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Mar 1, 2023 14:08
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cowboy
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I love reading academic history books for the bits when the author starts absolutely savaging someone else's scholarship and basically accuses them of failing to do the most basic of research. Reading a history of Parthia, Reign of Arrows right now and the author routinely just starts savaging this one author for uncritically considering ancient historian's biases against Eastern peoples, it's great.
Whorelord fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Mar 2, 2023 |
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Mar 2, 2023 19:02
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Whorelord posted:I love reading academic history books for the bits when the author starts absolutely savaging someone else's scholarship and basically accuses them of failing to do the most basic of research. Reading a history of Parthia, Reign of Arrows right now and the author routinely just starts savaging this one author for uncritically considering ancient historian's biases against Eastern peoples, it's great. There's about a dozen cartoons of archaeological conferences where its just a knife fight or an outright brawl, they don't keep it just to their books. Main reason why I left academia
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Mar 2, 2023 19:20
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Whorelord posted:I love reading academic history books for the bits when the author starts absolutely savaging someone else's scholarship and basically accuses them of failing to do the most basic of research. Reading a history of Parthia, Reign of Arrows right now and the author routinely just starts savaging this one author for uncritically considering ancient historian's biases against Eastern peoples, it's great. Not ancient history, but if you like this pick up a copy of Christopher Browning's Ordinary Men. There is an entire afterword that is basically a very well researched and constructed take down of why Daniel Godhagen is a bad historian, a hack, and either completely lacking in the linguistic skills to conduct research into the holocaust (ie. bad at German) or willfully and dishonestly misrepresented his sources to support his bullshit claims. It's loving savage.
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Mar 2, 2023 19:39
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Cyrano4747 posted:Not ancient history, but if you like this pick up a copy of Christopher Browning's Ordinary Men. There is an entire afterword that is basically a very well researched and constructed take down of why Daniel Godhagen is a bad historian, a hack, and either completely lacking in the linguistic skills to conduct research into the holocaust (ie. bad at German) or willfully and dishonestly misrepresented his sources to support his bullshit claims. also, "Shattered Sword" is both a very good book about Midway, and also a very good book about how hilariously bad American scholarship on the battle of Midway was because it relied for decades on a book by a Japanese author that had been translated into english...except the Japanese had figured out he was full of poo poo decades ago but nobody got around to translating that into english there is a very funny aside when they themselves start to realize the guy is full of poo poo and are very politely asking their japanese contacts about some factual details that sound off, concerned they will offend them because they assume he's still as well-regarded in Japan as he was in America, and get the response of "yeah, everyone's known that guy is full of poo poo for decades, why do you ask???"
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Mar 2, 2023 19:41
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Whorelord posted:I love reading academic history books for the bits when the author starts absolutely savaging someone else's scholarship and basically accuses them of failing to do the most basic of research. Reading a history of Parthia, Reign of Arrows right now and the author routinely just starts savaging this one author for uncritically considering ancient historian's biases against Eastern peoples, it's great.
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Mar 2, 2023 19:43
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Whorelord posted:I love reading academic history books for the bits when the author starts absolutely savaging someone else's scholarship and basically accuses them of failing to do the most basic of research. Reading a history of Parthia, Reign of Arrows right now and the author routinely just starts savaging this one author for uncritically considering ancient historian's biases against Eastern peoples, it's great. https://twitter.com/ClementsAustinJ/status/1631353029495758848
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Mar 3, 2023 19:51
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Lol I came here to post that
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Mar 4, 2023 08:14
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Whorelord posted:I love reading academic history books for the bits when the author starts absolutely savaging someone else's scholarship and basically accuses them of failing to do the most basic of research. Reading a history of Parthia, Reign of Arrows right now and the author routinely just starts savaging this one author for uncritically considering ancient historian's biases against Eastern peoples, it's great. I read Polybius once and the parts that really stuck with me were when he absolutely ripped into other historians for not actually crossing the Alps or describing a siege early in the First Punic War in a way that didn't make sense
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Mar 5, 2023 03:50
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evilweasel posted:also, "Shattered Sword" is both a very good book about Midway, and also a very good book about how hilariously bad American scholarship on the battle of Midway was because it relied for decades on a book by a Japanese author that had been translated into english...except the Japanese had figured out he was full of poo poo decades ago but nobody got around to translating that into english I'm reading it right now and it's really striking how he is just swinging hammer blow after hammer blow to previous claims.
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Mar 6, 2023 01:06
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Lawman 0 posted:I'm reading it right now and it's really striking how he is just swinging hammer blow after hammer blow to previous claims. Yeah, it's "everything we know about this battle is wrong" writ large. I like that they have the documentary evidence to prove there weren't strike aircraft spotted on deck, because when the Japanese abandoned the carriers, they took the air group records, so they have the deck activity logs for three or four carriers. There have been several actually good books on Midway written since it came out. I like Midway Inquest for its different approach to analyzing events. About the only account from before it that's any use is The First Team, and that's just literally every combat sortie flown by USN fighter squadrons in one big narrative.
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Mar 6, 2023 01:34
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So what’s the tldr on the changes to the western understanding of midway? I know the general narrative about “Should he have launched torpedo or bomb flights” and such. What’s changed?
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Mar 6, 2023 02:32
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galagazombie posted:So what’s the tldr on the changes to the western understanding of midway? I know the general narrative about “Should he have launched torpedo or bomb flights” and such. What’s changed? the "five minutes" story - that the american bombers arrived five minutes before the japanese launched a strike that probably would have devastated the american fleet and caught that strike on deck and destroyed it, luckily saving the day - is utter horseshit. the japanese were not prepared to launch an attack at that time. that said, the american attacks were a comedy of errors and its more "the americans should have had any loving idea how to launch a carrier strike" than fine details like changing the mix around a little
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Mar 6, 2023 02:37
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Jon Parshall also gives lots of talks about it on YouTube that are easy to find if you want to hear him tell the story himself.
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Mar 6, 2023 03:59
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evilweasel posted:the "five minutes" story - that the american bombers arrived five minutes before the japanese launched a strike that probably would have devastated the american fleet and caught that strike on deck and destroyed it, luckily saving the day - is utter horseshit. the japanese were not prepared to launch an attack at that time. it turns out that instead of building up forces for a decisive strike with a 3-to-1 advantage you can do perfectly fine just trickling in attackers one at a time, firing off ineffectual volleys, tire the defenders out and burn out their fuel tanks and prevent them from reconfiguring from fleet defense to long-range strike
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Mar 8, 2023 03:00
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galagazombie posted:So what’s the tldr on the changes to the western understanding of midway? I know the general narrative about “Should he have launched torpedo or bomb flights” and such. What’s changed? that the US forces were greatly outnumbered/outmatched and the victory was a miracle against all odds the actual balance of power at Midway was actually fairly even. In the main it was 4 IJN fleet carrier vs 3 USN fleet carriers. The US had a slight numerical advantage in number of planes once you take into account land-based planes on Midway, the Japanese had a big -qualitative- edge in their air groups (both more modern planes and much better crews) and 1 extra fleet carrier. The US no doubt got very lucky during the battle, but it's like if you had to bet on the battle beforehand the odds prob look like 3:2 or something and not 10:1 in favor of the Japanese. Also that the Japanese loss being Nagumo's fault, in reality if you had blame someone it's Yamamoto Typo fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Mar 8, 2023 |
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Mar 8, 2023 22:00
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Elden Lord Godfrey posted:it turns out that instead of building up forces for a decisive strike with a 3-to-1 advantage you can do perfectly fine just trickling in attackers one at a time, firing off ineffectual volleys, tire the defenders out and burn out their fuel tanks and prevent them from reconfiguring from fleet defense to long-range strike tbf it only worked because the US got extremely lucky Hornet's torpedo squadron -happen- to arrive at the right time to draw Japanese fighters onto the "wrong" quadrant of their fleet The Enterprise dive bomber squadrons -happened- to get lucky when they couldn't find their target and found a Japanese destroyer to follow back to the Kido Butai's carriers the dive bomber airgroups from the enterprise and the Yorktown -happened- to arrive at the same time in 2 different directions to execute a hammer and anvil attack Midway was the -only- carrier battle in 1942 where the US had this type of luck, if you look at other battles what would actually happen is most of the US airgroups would just get lost and unable to find their target and had to return home. It should also be noted even after losing something like 80% of their strength a fairly small number of Japanese bombers (also launched piecemeal) were able to cripple the Yorktown enough that a sub sank it later. If the US got a bit less lucky and 2-3 Japanese carriers survived the morning the US probably would have lost 2/3 of their carriers at least. Typo fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Mar 8, 2023 |
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Mar 8, 2023 22:04
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One thing that Shattered Sword does very, very well is emphasizing the role that doctrine played in how the battle transpired - eg the KB's search pattern.
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Mar 8, 2023 22:58
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Parshall also makes the point on the regular that while you can talk about Midway as a turning point, it was not in any sense decisive. The US had things really go their way at Midway, but even if it hadn't gone so well for them then, the rage of Pearl Harbour and the industrial might that had already been activated before the war meant that it would have gone that well for them eventually.
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Mar 9, 2023 01:28
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I hear the Japanese only lost because Yamamato drowned the augur's chickens in a rage after they predicted bad omens.
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Mar 9, 2023 15:09
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PittTheElder posted:Parshall also makes the point on the regular that while you can talk about Midway as a turning point, it was not in any sense decisive. The US had things really go their way at Midway, but even if it hadn't gone so well for them then, the rage of Pearl Harbour and the industrial might that had already been activated before the war meant that it would have gone that well for them eventually. Shattered Sword also points out the Japanese probably wouldn't even have being able to take the island itself even if they wiped out the US carrier fleets: because the landing forces they sent was completely insufficient and would have being slaughtered storming the island And even -if- they took the island it wouldn't actually do much for the Japanese: they likely wouldn't be able to supply/maintain a large air force on it anyway as per their plan. Eventually they probably had to abandon it anyway. This is why the battle is ultimately Yamamoto's fault: the entire plan was flawed from the get-go. Yamamoto by all accounts was depressed after Pearl Habor because he realized Japan cannot win a war against American industrial might, it just seem like by Midway he became fatalist and his heart wasn't really in it anymore. It feels like he was just going through the motions in a war he knew he was going to lose. Typo fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Mar 9, 2023 |
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Mar 9, 2023 16:38
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Could they have won against the UK alone? Or was the UK/US bro ship too strong and they would have just been bombed from the Philippines ?
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Mar 9, 2023 16:41
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Typo posted:This is why the battle is ultimately Yamamoto's fault: the entire plan was flawed from the get-go.
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Mar 9, 2023 17:00
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Nessus posted:Could they have won against the UK alone? Or was the UK/US bro ship too strong and they would have just been bombed from the Philippines ? Depends a lot on whether we're assuming they're at war with the pre-Roman Celtic British isles, or Roman England which presumably has the support of the rest of the Empire. Assuming a bunch of triremes could even make it to the Pacific, that is.
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Mar 9, 2023 17:02
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Cyrano4747 posted:Depends a lot on whether we're assuming they're at war with the pre-Roman Celtic British isles, or Roman England which presumably has the support of the rest of the Empire. Assuming a bunch of triremes could even make it to the Pacific, that is. 
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Mar 9, 2023 17:08
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:If I remember correctly, Yamamoto knew before Pearl Harbor was even planned that Japan could not beat the US but was essentially honor bound to do his best because Japanese leadership felt he was the best man for the job. he was part of the pro-treaty (washington naval treaty) faction of the Japanese military and thought going to war with the US was just dumb kinda ironic at one point in the 1930s he was at serious risk of being assassinated by hawks from within the military for being too dovish
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Mar 9, 2023 17:09
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:If I remember correctly, Yamamoto knew before Pearl Harbor was even planned that Japan could not beat the US but was essentially honor bound to do his best because Japanese leadership felt he was the best man for the job. He told them before that they had no chance of victory, but if he must fight, he will fight like a violent dog til the end. And he did til we assassinated him.
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Mar 9, 2023 17:20
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Another thing pointed out about Midway in Shattered Sword is that the Japanese committed the cardinal error of planning for their enemy's supposed intent rather than their actual capabilities. They basically assumed that the Americans were afraid of a fight and would need to be coaxed out whereas in fact Nimitz was rather spoiling for a fight and was quite happy to come out for one. Therefore for example in one of the Japanese pre-operation exercises when the opfor commander did something rather like what the Americans actually did at Midway and jeprodized the whole operation the response was basically "yes, but the Americans won't do that" rather than "oh yes, we need to explore this more deeply". One of the (many) lessons is that you need to plan for what the enemy actually can do, not what you think the enemy will do.
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Mar 9, 2023 17:49
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Cyrano4747 posted:Depends a lot on whether we're assuming they're at war with the pre-Roman Celtic British isles, or Roman England which presumably has the support of the rest of the Empire. Assuming a bunch of triremes could even make it to the Pacific, that is. Could triremes even sail the Channel? I know they were created for the calmer waters of the Mediterranean.
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Mar 9, 2023 20:07
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Elyv posted:Could triremes even sail the Channel? I know they were created for the calmer waters of the Mediterranean. Sure. The Romans needed to use some kind of ships for dealing with England, and they had a little fleet up there for dealing with stuff. Although the references I can find talk about them using bireme liburna ships instead of the bigger triremes. I think that's more just because later Rome stopped using larger warships due to lack of external threats, not because of an inability to field bigger ships in the north. Their most notable event was when Carausius went from using Roman forces to pacify local pirates to forging his own little pirate state, declaring himself as "Emperor of the North". When Diocletian had s bright idea for splitting the title of Emperor with Maximian, Carausius depicted himself as just another mutual emperor.
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Mar 9, 2023 20:55
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