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I don't think I saw the first Terminator until after T2, but at no point have I ever thought Arnold was the bad guy. The T-1000 oozes menace and the T-800 gets into a fight with some bikers and then Bad to the Bone plays. Sure we aren't shown the T-1000 for sure killed a cop but the worst the T-800 does is mildly wound some people. I'm aware that Cameron is on record for saying it's supposed to be a surprise and that marketing ruined it, but if you don't have the context of Arnold being a bad guy in the first Terminator it does not come across that way at all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HuPANafBQ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPtVZ69lomk
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Mar 7, 2023 00:33
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Len posted:but if you don't have the context of Arnold being a bad guy in the first Terminator it does not come across that way at all
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Mar 7, 2023 00:42
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bitterandtwisted posted:In highschool we were given mercury to play with in chemistry class. It felt so weird. It was a liquid but it just rolled around in your hands and when you poured it back in the flask your hands were completely dry. Mercury is pretty safe in metallic form. The vapour if you're heating it, on the other hand, is not so great.
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Mar 7, 2023 00:43
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Yeah it might be surprising that Arnold is a good guy in T2 but it's never a secret that T1000 is a bad guy.
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Mar 7, 2023 00:48
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Pilchenstein posted:Ok but I feel like he was making the film expecting people to have that context. Though you could say similar things about the start of From Dusk Til Dawn, I suppose - putting a cast like that together in the mid 90s just screamed "crime thriller", especially with Tarantino's involvement. To an extent he expected people to have that context but there were also seven years of Arnold being a huge star in increasingly ridiculous heroic roles between the two movies. Terminator was a sleeper hit and T2 was the biggest movie of all time, so many people probably went in with little knowledge of the first. It's a tough line to toe.
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Mar 7, 2023 00:57
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Another theatrical version holdover of the "T-1000 is glitching" subplot that is more or less cut: is that after he is reassembled, when you see a full frame shot of him walking, he has the shirt of the beat cop uniform, but the boots of the bike cop uniform. I never noticed it until it got pointed out to me a few months ago
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Mar 7, 2023 01:12
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Hockles posted:Another theatrical version holdover of the "T-1000 is glitching" subplot that is more or less cut: is that after he is reassembled, when you see a full frame shot of him walking, he has the shirt of the beat cop uniform, but the boots of the bike cop uniform. I never noticed it until it got pointed out to me a few months ago I would never in my life have caught that
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Mar 7, 2023 02:02
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Len posted:I don't think I saw the first Terminator until after T2, but at no point have I ever thought Arnold was the bad guy. The T-1000 oozes menace and the T-800 gets into a fight with some bikers and then Bad to the Bone plays. Sure we aren't shown the T-1000 for sure killed a cop but the worst the T-800 does is mildly wound some people. I'm aware that Cameron is on record for saying it's supposed to be a surprise and that marketing ruined it, but if you don't have the context of Arnold being a bad guy in the first Terminator it does not come across that way at all. I think Arnie not killing anyone in the bar and the other shifts in tone were passed off as studio mandated changes for a more family friendly action sequel. The rest of the early sequence parallels fairly closely: Arnie arrives first, his adversary is waylaid by a cop whose gun he steals, and so on.
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Mar 7, 2023 02:36
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T2 is fantastic in every way. My personal favorite little thing is the way Arnold cocks the shotgun on the motor cycle but what’s truly astounding is that T2 is one of the best action movies of all time but it’s still only his second best action flick
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Mar 7, 2023 02:59
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I can confirm that it feels super badass to successfully pull off that shotgun lever twirl move and also that you will get in real big trouble if your dad sees you doing it even though it wasn't even loaded
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Mar 7, 2023 03:08
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Turns out the t1000 actually had 4 arms during the chopper sequence.
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Mar 7, 2023 03:50
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Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:Turns out the t1000 actually had 4 arms during the chopper sequence. Quoting myself because it's the easiest way to find the associated clip. Cat Hatter posted:Combining the recent conversations about aviation and Terminators, have you ever noticed the detail in Terminator 2 during the helicopter chase where the T-1000 has a third arm piloting the helicopter so he can use two hands to reload his gun? Yes? Well you are an unobservant moron who doesn't know how helicopters work.
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Mar 7, 2023 05:42
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Maybe Cameron did mean for it to be a surprise but just wasn't very good at conveying it.
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Mar 7, 2023 08:16
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Phy posted:Another one of those great retroactive recognition series, although now I'm wondering if I think that only on the strength of like five episodes: Not in front of the camera, but X-Files was also Vince Gilligan's first TV writing job and is also where he would meet Bryan Cranston.
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Mar 7, 2023 09:39
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Henchman of Santa posted:To an extent he expected people to have that context but there were also seven years of Arnold being a huge star in increasingly ridiculous heroic roles between the two movies. Terminator was a sleeper hit and T2 was the biggest movie of all time, so many people probably went in with little knowledge of the first. It's a tough line to toe. If all you know about the terminator is that it has an evil killer robot, that is probably enough for people to think the robot with red digital vision is the bad guy in T2.
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Mar 7, 2023 09:45
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Another cameo I didn't catch until the credits is Dave Grohl in the Tenacious D movie
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Mar 7, 2023 12:20
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oldpainless posted:T2 is fantastic in every way. My personal favorite little thing is the way Arnold cocks the shotgun on the motor cycle but what’s truly astounding is that T2 is one of the best action movies of all time but it’s still only his second best action flick IIRC Cameron borrowed the cool shotgun-cocking thing from something John Wayne does in John Ford's Stagecoach (1939).
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Mar 7, 2023 12:59
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If "Bad to the Bone" and the sunglasses bit didn't happen, I could see the case for it trying to be ambiguous. I'm sure that's what Cameron wanted but if he was in charge of those editing decisions, he hosed it up himself. The T800, after killing everyone he did in T1 and terrorizing Sarah, is not supposed to be 'goofy', but those two things make him that way before we get definite proof.
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Mar 7, 2023 13:13
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Imagining the T800 on Rise of the Machines also being a villain but still given the Macho Man sequence.
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Mar 7, 2023 16:11
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The movie ends abruptly as the T-800 drives into a tree?
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Mar 7, 2023 16:18
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Henchman of Santa posted:Imagining the T800 on Rise of the Machines also being a villain but still given the Macho Man sequence. I totally forgot the existence of terminator 3 and all that was coming to mind for “macho man sequence” was the bonesaw fight in spider-man. The t-800 in the bonesaw fight would have been… different.
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Mar 7, 2023 16:19
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:If "Bad to the Bone" and the sunglasses bit didn't happen, I could see the case for it trying to be ambiguous. I'm sure that's what Cameron wanted but if he was in charge of those editing decisions, he hosed it up himself. Watching T2 before Terminator meant it took a few years to realise the impact of Sarah seeing the T-800 round a corner for the first time. As a kid I thought "Well yeah, she's scared", but watching them both as an adult with fresh eyes really drove home the "Oh poo poo, yeah, she is a broken woman, and the very literal source of all her nightmares - the thing that ruined her life in unimaginable ways - has just turned up". I recently saw a Terminator/RoboCop double bill at the cinema on 35mm film, which was rad as hell, but my god did it ever hammer home my want for more Terminator in the style of Terminator. T2 was amazing, and redefined action movies for at least two decades, but Terminator was horror. It was a slasher! An extended chase sequence! That's since been pushed to one side in favour of bombast and spectacle (though the first half hour of Dark Fate nudged towards that). What I really want is a short film anthology with a focus on the horror. An Animatrix, but Terminator. A T800 being sent too far back and being treated by medieval peasants as a demon talked about in hushed tones. Skynet miscalculating and dropping one in the ocean in the 1700s, and accidentally inventing a sea monster, all metal skeleton caked with barnacles and coral, dragging itself up anchor chains to board unsuspecting boats. Hell, flip it, and have a T800 with a head injury sufficient to render it arguably human, trying to blend in and live a life amongst the survivors in the future war, desperately afraid of being found out.
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Mar 7, 2023 16:42
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There are two versions of the Our Father found in the Bible: in the Gospel of Matthew (the formulation commonly used in Christian liturgies) and another one in Luke's Gospel (a shorter variant, rarely heard aloud). In Paul, Apostle of Christ (2018), we see a group of early Christians pray the Our Father using the Matthean wording. This group is led by Saint Luke himself. The implication that even Luke didn't like Luke's version is pretty funny.
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Mar 7, 2023 17:18
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Flint_Paper posted:Watching T2 before Terminator meant it took a few years to realise the impact of Sarah seeing the T-800 round a corner for the first time. As a kid I thought "Well yeah, she's scared", but watching them both as an adult with fresh eyes really drove home the "Oh poo poo, yeah, she is a broken woman, and the very literal source of all her nightmares - the thing that ruined her life in unimaginable ways - has just turned up". T-800 being the reason the Titanic sank. It'll be James Cameron's magnum opus. Again.
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Mar 7, 2023 17:53
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I don't think that a music choice really removes all possible ambiguity on someone's status of "bad guy". Especially since the music playing when the T800 is at the mall and saves John is very much "bad guy" music.
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Mar 7, 2023 17:57
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Arnold pulling the shotgun from the box of roses is such a cool moment
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Mar 7, 2023 18:03
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Cameron on why the T-1000 is a cop:quote:The Terminator films are not really about the human race getting killed of by future machines. They're about us losing touch with our own humanity and becoming machines, which allows us to kill and brutalize each other," he says. "Cops think all non-cops as less than they are, stupid, weak, and evil. They dehumanize the people they are sworn to protect and desensitize themselves in order to do that job.
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Mar 7, 2023 18:05
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Movie reaction videos are a big thing these days(I know I know), and you can go watch a whole range of people reacting to Terminator and then Terminator 2. When you do that, the ambiguity in the first act of T2 is undeniable. People who watch Terminator are often surprised by how brutal it is and how scary Arnold is in that movie. So you're primed to feel that way about the Terminator going into T2, and so typically people aren't on alert for a swerve.
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Mar 7, 2023 18:06
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Carthag Tuek posted:Cameron on why the T-1000 is a cop: Yo he's on team ACAB
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Mar 7, 2023 18:06
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Flint_Paper posted:Watching T2 before Terminator meant it took a few years to realise the impact of Sarah seeing the T-800 round a corner for the first time. As a kid I thought "Well yeah, she's scared", but watching them both as an adult with fresh eyes really drove home the "Oh poo poo, yeah, she is a broken woman, and the very literal source of all her nightmares - the thing that ruined her life in unimaginable ways - has just turned up". In a college comics writing class I tried pitching a story where Skynet learns that Kyle Reese is the father & sends a Terminator to go after one of his ancestors… in 1940's Germany. John Connor sends a savior but the story's dilemma revolved around their deep Jewish faith in conflict with saving SS officer Wilhelm Reese. My writing professor thought it had promise but "since it's a licensed property I doubt (then-rights holder) Dark Horse Comics would option it."
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Mar 7, 2023 18:11
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CainFortea posted:I don't think that a music choice really removes all possible ambiguity on someone's status of "bad guy". Especially since the music playing when the T800 is at the mall and saves John is very much "bad guy" music. But essentially, you're going from Arnold being absolutely terrifying and a non-stop killing machine to him merely beating up some bikers (could be argued it's because he didn't yet have a gun at that point) all set to the kinda goofy sounding Bad to the Bone, and then deciding he needed sunglasses for.... reasons, building up that moment as if he's going to hurt that guy, when he doesn't. Music can make a huge difference but the sunglasses thing could be considered silly on its own.
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Mar 7, 2023 20:15
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He needed sunglasses because he had sunglasses to cover his robot eye in the first movie. There is the reason.
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Mar 7, 2023 20:18
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:But essentially, you're going from Arnold being absolutely terrifying and a non-stop killing machine to him merely beating up some bikers (could be argued it's because he didn't yet have a gun at that point) all set to the kinda goofy sounding Bad to the Bone, and then deciding he needed sunglasses for.... reasons, building up that moment as if he's going to hurt that guy, when he doesn't. What Cameron was counting on, and he was correct, is that the impression left by Arnold from the first movie would carry over at least for a few scenes. In retrospect sure, you can see that the Terminator isn't acting quite the same way he would've in the first movie, but most people just don't notice that. And if they do, they tend to just assume it's because Cameron decided to make a movie that's a bit lighter in tone, not because Arnold is actually playing the good guy. Like I said before, you can now watch many different people going through the experience and the proof is right there, the ambiguity does actually fool people.
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Mar 7, 2023 20:23
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Eh, he only kills one person to get the clothing at the start of The Terminator and the sunglasses could be argued to be part of the "Infiltrator" part of the programming. I mean, to hear people talk about them, it sounds like the T-800 just murders every human it comes across in The Terminator while giving lollipops and headpats in T2. He still fucks people up getting the clothing in T2, he just doesn't murder someone while doing so. The music was a bit silly but you're also talking early-90's where movies (and sequels especially) tended to bit a bit more light-hearted in tone. Randalor has a new favorite as of 20:54 on Mar 7, 2023 |
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Mar 7, 2023 20:25
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CainFortea posted:He needed sunglasses because he had sunglasses to cover his robot eye in the first movie. Ah, fair enough. Basebf555 posted:What Cameron was counting on, and he was correct, is that the impression left by Arnold from the first movie would carry over at least for a few scenes. In retrospect sure, you can see that the Terminator isn't acting quite the same way he would've in the first movie, but most people just don't notice that. And if they do, they tend to just assume it's because Cameron decided to make a movie that's a bit lighter in tone, not because Arnold is actually playing the good guy. I don't doubt it, I was mostly speaking to the point that a music choice doesn't change the mood of a scene, because it absolutely does. Maybe in this case, it affects me more so than usual, but then again, I never had the opportunity to be fooled by the ambiguity of the beginning of T2.
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Mar 7, 2023 20:26
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My point wasn't that music doesn't change a scene. My point is that music alone is not going to destroy any ambiguity on the good/bad guy status. Also because a later music choice would support the idea that the T800 in T2 is a bad guy. Having both types of music supports ambiguity, it doesn't end it.
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Mar 7, 2023 20:32
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I’m a bad guy 😎
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Mar 7, 2023 20:37
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:I don't doubt it, I was mostly speaking to the point that a music choice doesn't change the mood of a scene, because it absolutely does. Maybe in this case, it affects me more so than usual, but then again, I never had the opportunity to be fooled by the ambiguity of the beginning of T2. One thing to remember too is that T2 comes along 7 years after the first film. So at this point Arnold has blown up into a huge star, so has Cameron and people know that T2 is going to have a gigantic budget. So I think people were ready to accept that maybe T2 was going to have a lighter tone, and maybe it wouldn't feel so much like a low budget slasher movie. So I think those were more of the thoughts people were having when they saw the bar scene with Bad to the Bone, rather than being suspicious about Arnold's character. The movie was a gigantic smash hit though so yea I imagine the number of people who got to see it completely unspoiled at the time was fairly low. It's taken a generational turnover to refresh the audience so now you have 20 somethings going into T2 without much about it other than it's the sequel to Terminator.
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Mar 7, 2023 20:38
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Bad to the Bone didn't clue me in that he was a good guy, but it did clue me in that this movie has a much different tone than the last.
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Mar 7, 2023 20:39
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Pope Corky the IX posted:Sometimes I wonder if the T-1000 came out of James Cameron finding out that Linda Hamilton had an identical twin sister and working backwards from there. Otherwise it's one hell of a coincidence. If I'm not mistaken her twin sister also appeared toward the end as the T-1000 imitating her as well Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:Can't even lie, genesys is one of my favorite bad movies. It knows it sucks and it dives headfirst into "don't give a gently caress" and just unleashes crazy poo poo. I at least liked the T-1000 they had in it  Dark Fate isn't good, but I dug Venom-symbiote Terminator atop a black exoskeletion and watching CG Eddie Furlong get taken out without getting one last shrill "MOOOOOM" out. The common thread through all of the terrible sequels is that there's at least one thing I enjoy. Anyway oh boy, another excuse to post the dumb video I made for an Inappropriate Soundtracks thread on SA around 2005 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtjLp51OqBo
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Mar 7, 2023 21:04
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