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I will point out that Picard had two confrontations with the Borg after best of both worlds, both after he came to terms over what he did at Wolf 359. One of those times he had the opportunity to genocide the whole race and was willing to risk his ship and everyone on board to protect Hugh. The other time he was held while a crew member and friend was tortured and another was being held hostage/manipulated. Neither time did he devolve to the point he did in First Contact. Had they gone a different route with him feeling remorse for not following through with the plan in "I, Borg" knowing that he might have been about to stop all of this before it every happened, that would have been something. As it stands though, the writing in First Contact basically just ignores "I, Borg" and "Descent" completely. It even does it in the dialog. quote:They believe that a man who was once captured and assimilated by the Borg should not be put in a situation where he would face them again. To do so would introduce an unstable element to a critical situation The dude already faced Borg twice since that incident and was successful both times. It would have just taken small tweaks to the script to tighten up Picard's motivations. "There are those in Starfleet that believe my hesitation in wiping out the Borg in our encounter with Hugh indicates latent sympathy and therefore makes me a liability in the defense of Earth." That could have planted the nugget of doubt in him that leads him to overreact in the opposite way once they get tossed back in time and the Borg are infiltrating the ship. He feels he needs to prove himself and feels guilty about letting this happen.
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Mar 8, 2023 16:26
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bull3964 posted:
Yes but what about people who had never seen TNG, they would become baffled and disoriented by this line, would stand up and wander the aisles in puzzlement
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Mar 8, 2023 16:40
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zoux posted:Yes but what about people who had never seen TNG, they would become baffled and disoriented by this line, would stand up and wander the aisles in puzzlement I'm sure the 5 of them that went to see the movie would cope.
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Mar 8, 2023 16:41
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Not to argue with you, but it raises the question in my mind: probably way more people have seen the movies than have seen, say, 10 episodes of any ST episode. Yes or no?
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Mar 8, 2023 16:43
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bull3964 posted:I will point out that Picard had two confrontations with the Borg after best of both worlds, both after he came to terms over what he did at Wolf 359. One of those times he had the opportunity to genocide the whole race and was willing to risk his ship and everyone on board to protect Hugh. The other time he was held while a crew member and friend was tortured and another was being held hostage/manipulated. True, but getting over trauma is never a smooth process. You can be doing well and then devolve, especially when confronted with the Borg trying to take your ship and your history.
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Mar 8, 2023 16:43
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:True, but getting over trauma is never a smooth process. You can be doing well and then devolve, especially when confronted with the Borg trying to take your ship and your history. Yeah there's a difference between dealing with a single Borg drone separated from the collective, or a group of renegade drones commanded by Data's brother, as opposed to literally trying to save the entire history of the Federation while stuck 300 years in the past, and the only way of getting back to the present for Picard and the crew after all that is slowly being taken over by the Borg. BattleMaster posted:I never understood why the Borg never considered people boarding their ships to be a threat. There are essentially no positive reasons to let someone have free run of your ship and lots of negatives. I can't imagine why an entire race of beings that think everything that isn't themselves is "irrelevant" would suffer the pitfalls of being smug, prideful dicks with a superiority complex, complete with things like not learning from mistakes and thinking that they only lost because the other side got lucky or whatever. The Borg, for all their claims that emotions are irrelevant, have a massive issue with pride.
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Mar 8, 2023 16:50
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Angry_Ed posted:Yeah there's a difference between dealing with a single Borg drone separated from the collective, or a group of renegade drones commanded by Data's brother, as opposed to literally trying to save the entire history of the Federation while stuck 300 years in the past, and the only way of getting back to the present for Picard and the crew after all that is slowly being taken over by the Borg. "I, Borg" was more than a single Borg. Most of the story was one drone but a cube shows up at the end and Picard was FULLY prepared to put his ship and everyone on the line if Hugh wanted to stay.
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Mar 8, 2023 16:53
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MrL_JaKiri posted:The little comedy vignette at the start where the new ensign SPILLS COFFEE ON PICARD!! Fun fact, she makes an appearance in Lower Decks as the captain of a California-class ship.
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Mar 8, 2023 17:02
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BattleMaster posted:I never understood why the Borg never considered people boarding their ships to be a threat. There are essentially no positive reasons to let someone have free run of your ship and lots of negatives. I get the impression that, as originally conceived, the Borg didn't recognize other sentient life at all. People beamed over to their ship, and until they took hostile action, didn't register as a threat. The Borg were only interested in rge technology of the Enterprise.
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Mar 8, 2023 17:08
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mllaneza posted:Fun fact, she makes an appearance in Lower Decks as the captain of a California-class ship. She was also meant to appear in more episodes of TNG but then she got her hair cut and was made persona non grata by Berman
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Mar 8, 2023 17:08
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mllaneza posted:Fun fact, she makes an appearance in Lower Decks as the captain of a California-class ship. Even better than that, she's on an Obena-class ship (Excelsior inspired with some hints of Soveirgn) initiating a first contact. So higher stature than merely California class!
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Mar 8, 2023 17:12
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mllaneza posted:Fun fact, she makes an appearance in Lower Decks as the captain of a California-class ship. she's also the three-boobed lady from total recall lol
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Mar 8, 2023 17:15
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Angry_Ed posted:
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Mar 8, 2023 17:56
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FISHMANPET posted:Even better than that, she's on an Obena-class ship (Excelsior inspired with some hints of Soveirgn) initiating a first contact. So higher stature than merely California class! Yeah Lower Decks introduced a late 24th century update of the Excelsior Class, the Obena Class!  Unfortunately nobody told Picard and they immediately after introduced a late 24th update to the Excelsior Class, the Excelsior II class! (Because they gotta max out nostalgia and also they think the audience is stupid)  Sadly, Picard ranks higher than Lower Decks in bullshit Star Trek production politics so I'm guessing we're never going to see an Obena again and the Excelsior II is the Excelsior successor to be used from now on.
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Mar 8, 2023 18:13
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More Excelsior imo
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Mar 8, 2023 18:15
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Is this the time in the thread that I make you hear Sisko yelling BLOW UP THE drat SHIP in my better version of First Contact?
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Mar 8, 2023 18:18
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Nessus posted:More Excelsior imo yeah. if california and texas get a class i like to think it's a reference to the new york state motto 
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Mar 8, 2023 18:21
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Nessus posted:Friendly reminder that on the future internet people will absolutely post about the Borg with unshakable certainty in their inevitable triumph over any and all plausible obstacles, with any setbacks being immediately rationalized. Lol. Lmao. Assimilate the dip!
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Mar 8, 2023 18:21
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Beeftweeter posted:yeah. if california and texas get a class i like to think it's a reference to the new york state motto
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Mar 8, 2023 18:23
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Scrapped for metal in 1975
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Mar 8, 2023 18:24
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Sash! posted:Is this the time in the thread that I make you hear Sisko yelling BLOW UP THE drat SHIP in my better version of First Contact? It might be, yes.
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Mar 8, 2023 18:34
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:True, but getting over trauma is never a smooth process. You can be doing well and then devolve, especially when confronted with the Borg trying to take your ship and your history. Ultimately it's not my biggest issue with the movie -- he can be angry without becoming an action hero -- but I agree that it could've been handled a lot better. On paper there is no reason he couldn't snap back to feeling the need for revenge. But it's just a tough sell when previous stories handled it way better, and are then basically ignored on top of that.
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Mar 8, 2023 18:37
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First Contact almost entirely recreates the traumatic event that scarred Picard to begin with And on top of that, he’s losing his ship, his history, and before the battle Starfleet Command was trying to keep him out of it entirely because of his history with the Borg I think those are all fully justifiable reasons as to why he’s losing it
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Mar 8, 2023 18:45
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i don't really have a problem with picard's characterization in first contact. you can see him go from being the by-the-books starfleet officer to taking things very personally, because, well — it's incredibly personal for him. the borg were supposedly defeated, now they came back, and there wasn't really anything he could do about it beyond following them into the past, now they're assimilating his ship in order to assimilate humanity in that past; it's a great way to establish personal stakes for him, considering there is no backup the problem is that they didn't mash the reset button afterwards. they keep him in this state and that's just not who he is, jean-luc seemingly doesn't learn from this experience, and the films and series that occur afterwards use it as a pivotal moment which it might be, and that's fine, but it's losing sight of the character he used to be also Beeftweeter fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Mar 8, 2023 |
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Mar 8, 2023 18:53
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MikeJF posted:Yeah Lower Decks introduced a late 24th century update of the Excelsior Class, the Obena Class! I'm gonna be That Guy and say that I actually like the Excelsior II better than the Obena-class. The Obena looks like an ugly kitbash. An Excelsior desperately trying to be a Sovereign. The Excelsior II actually looks like a modernized take on the ship profile.
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Mar 8, 2023 19:04
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Quoting the quote from the last page. Q's line from "Q Who" is such a banger:quote:Q : If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid. It's also one of the few times that Kirk would have ruled on TNG. You know he would have gone after Q with both barrels loaded after hearing this reply. I'm not exactly sure what he would have said, but it would have combined the indomitable human spirit, talked about how we cherish life in a way that Q's stunted heart can cherish nothing save his narcissistic displays of power, and how his actions reveal that the morals of a so-called 'higher race' amount to nothing more than a bored child with a magnifying glass searching for ants. And Shatner could have sold it.
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Mar 8, 2023 19:09
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nine-gear crow posted:I'm gonna be That Guy and say that I actually like the Excelsior II better than the Obena-class. The Obena looks like an ugly kitbash. An Excelsior desperately trying to be a Sovereign. The Excelsior II actually looks like a modernized take on the ship profile. they're both fine imo. the obena looks like a heavily revised version that, well, is probably pretty similar to a kitbash: it looks upgraded with poo poo they had laying around, which makes sense if you consider that following the dominion war they probably had a bunch of half-useful parts literally floating around the excelsior ii looks like it's something completely different so the name is probably inappropriate, but it's not a bad design
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Mar 8, 2023 19:13
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the excelsior ii's neck is ridiculous lol. you can't sovereignize *everything*'s saucer ...
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Mar 8, 2023 19:20
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Excelsior 2 looks like if you threw Excelsior 1 on the torture rack for a few hours
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Mar 8, 2023 19:23
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:the excelsior ii's neck is ridiculous lol. lol yeah it looks like a frog the saucer is fine though i think, if that's the direction starfleet design went in general then  i guess it makes sense
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Mar 8, 2023 19:31
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Watching the TOS season 3 episode Elaan of Troyius. The plot's goofy and the Elasians are dressed like pizza slices, but I really love Elaan. I think it's really rare when an actress in TOS gets to have a role with some meat on it, and she knocks it out of the park, drat.
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Mar 8, 2023 19:53
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Sir Lemming posted:Ultimately it's not my biggest issue with the movie -- he can be angry without becoming an action hero -- but I agree that it could've been handled a lot better. On paper there is no reason he couldn't snap back to feeling the need for revenge. But it's just a tough sell when previous stories handled it way better, and are then basically ignored on top of that. That's why I think the scene with Lily in the Ready Room is so great. Everyone jokes about the "NO! NOOOOO!" scene but it really gets to the heart of the film: Picard probably knows he's being irrational, but he can't help it because "the Borg hurt [him], so [he] has to hurt them back". It's probably one of the best scenes in the movie (aside from Data's "Greetings!" scene that introduces Lily).
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Mar 8, 2023 19:58
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davidspackage posted:Watching the TOS season 3 episode Elaan of Troyius. The plot's goofy and the Elasians are dressed like pizza slices, but I really love Elaan. I think it's really rare when an actress in TOS gets to have a role with some meat on it, and she knocks it out of the park, drat. the pizza pirates are pretty funny elaan has the same problem that a lot of female characters do on TOS imo: her characterization is very patriarchal. she's not a strong character on her own, she needs kirk to literally yell at her and tell her what to do, and she falls in love with him almost immediately and yeah all of that makes sense considering the production time period, but it's still pretty distasteful i think
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Mar 8, 2023 19:59
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TOS spent two/two and a half years building this (mostly well earned) reputation for bring a progressive show.....only to utterly ruin it in season three with patronizing, sexist stereotypes and opinions about hippies that probably sounded like it came straight from the late 1960s establishment. It's jarring how conservative a lot of third season stuff ends up after being pretty progressive - for its time - up to that point. Ninja e: Credit where it's due, though - Spock understanding the Way To Eden hippies better than most of the rest of the crew kinda makes a weird bit of sense to me.
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Mar 8, 2023 20:05
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Beeftweeter posted:the pizza pirates are pretty funny Yeah, the whole "your highness needs a spanking" is very gross, I kinda wish the episode could've gone to a place where Kirk and Elaan would've found equal footing. It reminds me of the TNG episode with Famke Janssen, which was also kinda grody. Still, French N(g)uyen is very charismatic in the role.
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Mar 8, 2023 20:29
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:TOS spent two/two and a half years building this (mostly well earned) reputation for bring a progressive show.....only to utterly ruin it in season three with patronizing, sexist stereotypes and opinions about hippies that probably sounded like it came straight from the late 1960s establishment. It's jarring how conservative a lot of third season stuff ends up after being pretty progressive - for its time - up to that point. yeah, there's a couple of episodes in season 1 and 2 that handle female characters pretty well. off the top of my head "court martial" is a good example: kirk nearly gets his rear end handed to him by a prosecutor that happens to be a woman, but her gender doesn't define her role at all — yeah, we do see them flirt a bit, but imo that was more to make it seem like a personal betrayal to kirk. contrast that with "space seed" wrt mcgivers, there's basically the same problems as elaan there while season 2 definitely has some problematic portrayals too ("who mourns for adonais?" sticks out here imo) i think it's generally better about it. t'pring and t'paal are both strong characters, and even if t'pring's motivation might seem like it's somewhat misogynistic i don't really feel like it is upon examination but yeah, season 3 throws all of that out the window. scotty in particular is pretty gross to women in any season, really, but somehow manages to outdo himself lol
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Mar 8, 2023 20:47
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lol vulcan isn't real
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Mar 8, 2023 21:06
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zoux posted:Excelsior 2 looks like if you threw Excelsior 1 on the torture rack for a few hours Excelsior 2 is like if someone took a snapshot of a regular Excelsior just as it was going to warp and said "build that", it's the stretched, lowered, peeling-out fanart of an Excelsior and all it's missing is a giant green rat with a lolling tongue sticking out of the bridge
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Mar 8, 2023 21:12
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Nah, Excelsior 2 is a great upgrade to easily the worst-looking design to come out of the original movies. gently caress the og Excelsior.
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Mar 8, 2023 21:25
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MikeJF posted:Yeah Lower Decks introduced a late 24th century update of the Excelsior Class, the Obena Class! What's kind of funny to me is how the Obena bridge really looks more like a TNG era bridge than anything like Voyager or the Enterprise-E. Very beige, similar console shapes for the con, etc etc.
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Mar 8, 2023 21:32
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