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You can read the diplomatic cables, they were still asking for the pre war status quo in their overtures to the USSR.
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Mar 10, 2023 20:45
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If yoy read the early drafts of Truman's speeches, he seems to have been under the impression he was nuking a 'purely military target', and then had to revise his speech upon learning it was a city instead.
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Mar 10, 2023 20:53
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The attempted coup was such a shitshow. A bunch of guys trying to forge letters, getting physically lost in a dark bureaucracy, a leader committing suicide and apologizing, then in the morning being told to gently caress off by the rest of the military. “I—with my death—humbly apologize to the Emperor for the great crime.”
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Mar 10, 2023 20:55
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Soylent Pudding posted:I'd honestly expect North Korea to have a better trained, equiped and motivated army these days. they'd need a better fed one too.
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Mar 10, 2023 20:56
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Tunicate posted:If yoy read the early drafts of Truman's speeches, he seems to have been under the impression he was nuking a 'purely military target', and then had to revise his speech upon learning it was a city instead. My brain parsed Truman as Trump and I was wondering how he snuck that one by me
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Mar 10, 2023 21:01
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Casimir Radon posted:The Japanese military still wanted to do a coup and keep fighting after the first bomb was dropped so I dunno. Gaius Marius posted:You can read the diplomatic cables, they were still asking for the pre war status quo in their overtures to the USSR. The current consensus of scholarship in the West is 'Japanese internal politics were really complicated and violent in ways that the US did not understand at the time and most historians still don't, and the atomic bomb was seen by most involved as merely an escalation of the existing bombing campaign rather than a revolutionary step.' The US was trying to bring the Japanese government to sue for peace, but had little idea what that would take, be it the atomic bombs, Operation Olympic, or the option on Roosevelt's and Truman's desk to deploy the entirety of the American chemical weapon arsenal on Japan. What applicability any of this has to Ukraine, I think comes down to the fact that wars end when one side chooses to stop fighting, and it can be *really* hard to get entrenched power structures deeply invested in continuing a war to choose to stop fighting, at least without massive sops to their original goals in going to war. Whether Putin and company are quite as obdurate and self-destructive as the Japanese Empire's leadership remains to be seen.
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Mar 10, 2023 21:24
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Gaius Marius posted:You can read the diplomatic cables, they were still asking for the pre war status quo in their overtures to the USSR. Not pre-war status quo, status quo ante 1941. They wanted to keep the SE Asia Empire they'd been building through the 30's.
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Mar 10, 2023 21:36
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https://twitter.com/AlexandruC4/status/1634296480101015553 Now should partisans generally be able to sneak onto the flight line, torch a SU-27 then escape? Or is there maybe some dysfunction in the Russian Military
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Mar 10, 2023 22:02
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psydude posted:Edward Snowden's a seasoned veteran as well. A veteran sharepoint admin lol
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Mar 10, 2023 22:02
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I haven't done research into it, but I think a lot of more modern discourse around the bombings is impacted by the nuclear fears (not the right word, but cant thing of a better one) that developed in the following decades.
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Mar 10, 2023 22:03
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Borscht posted:https://twitter.com/AlexandruC4/status/1634296480101015553 The tweet DOES say this happened in Vladivostok. Given that the majority of Russian troops have been shipped off to Ukraine there's a decent chance that there's not that many guards left to spare for guarding the rear end end of Russia and those that remain are perhaps not exactly the cream of the crop. Cythereal posted:The current consensus of scholarship in the West is 'Japanese internal politics were really complicated and violent in ways that the US did not understand at the time and most historians still don't, and the atomic bomb was seen by most involved as merely an escalation of the existing bombing campaign rather than a revolutionary step.' The obvious next question is, what's the consensus of scholarship in Japan on the subject?
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Mar 10, 2023 22:15
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Vladivostok? That, uh, sounds like some pretty major unrest. I think maybe things are not going so well for poots
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Mar 10, 2023 22:16
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Tomn posted:The obvious next question is, what's the consensus of scholarship in Japan on the subject? I do not read or speak Japanese, so I don't know. What works I've read that have discussed the state of scholarship in Japan on the subject have only noted that it remains controversial over there as well, particularly concerning Emperor Hirohito's involvement in in the war and how it ended.
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Mar 10, 2023 22:20
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Vladivostok? That, uh, sounds like some pretty major unrest. I think maybe things are not going so well for poots It is a big thing if it is true. So far we know someone torched a A) museum exhibit, or B) abandoned parts donor in a scrap yard or C) the real thing.
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Mar 10, 2023 22:25
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Borscht posted:https://twitter.com/AlexandruC4/status/1634296480101015553 while definitely now very outdated, the bits in Politkovskaya's Putin's Russia are always worth a fun read
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Mar 10, 2023 22:43
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spankmeister posted:A veteran sharepoint admin lol Well someone's gonna have to maintain the intranet page for all of Segal's judo pics.
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Mar 10, 2023 23:09
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Cythereal posted:I do not read or speak Japanese, so I don't know. Japan and Japanese society have a very interesting way of looking back at their involvement in World War II.
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Mar 10, 2023 23:10
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Borscht posted:https://twitter.com/AlexandruC4/status/1634296480101015553 Fire sale at Big Suka Sukhoi
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Mar 10, 2023 23:57
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HonorableTB posted:Japan and Japanese society have a very interesting way of looking back at their involvement in World War II. They can't top Austria denying any and all responsibility, claiming they actually were the victim, and then pretending that their post-war neutrality was an altruistic decision on their part.
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Mar 10, 2023 23:58
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That Works posted:Fire sale at Big Suka Sukhoi Guess the Security Forces guy watching the flightline was asleep.
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Mar 10, 2023 23:58
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Or, hell, there’s not even geolocation in that video to Russia. Could be video of any busted non-flying Flanker on Earth.
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Mar 10, 2023 23:59
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I tend to regard the discourse around "Actually Japan surrendered because of Russia" as a solid bit of revisionism. The Russians did not have the means to conduct an opposed beach landing in the Pacific ocean, and didn't have the logistics to sustain an army even if they did. Japan's proposed terms didn't indicate that they were seriously looking for an end to hostilities with the Soviet Union, either. What territory the Russians did take was essentially an unopposed land grab after de facto hostilities had ended. Unless you think that the military that had completely annihilated Japan's Navy, Air Forces, and that was already occupying Japanese home territory wasn't a factor in the decision to surrender, I don't see much logic that supports that Stalin was the cause of Japanese surrender.
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Mar 11, 2023 00:05
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sharknado slashfic posted:My brain parsed Truman as Trump and I was wondering how he snuck that one by me It was the same day as a Masked Singer reveal. Borscht posted:https://twitter.com/AlexandruC4/status/1634296480101015553 There was no escape, but uh... (fatal crash event is just after 9:50) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgC2BWWqdOc Godholio fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Mar 11, 2023 |
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Mar 11, 2023 00:08
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Japan cabling Stalin and going "Hey we're willing to end hostilities but we don't give up anything we took in the last 20 years okay?" is exactly the same energy as Russia claiming that they're totally willing to stop invading Ukraine as soon as Ukraine gives up any and all claims to the bits they've already taken. It's not a real serious offer and is meaningless.
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Mar 11, 2023 00:09
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A.o.D. posted:I tend to regard the discourse around "Actually Japan surrendered because of Russia" as a solid bit of revisionism. The Russians did not have the means to conduct an opposed beach landing in the Pacific ocean, and didn't have the logistics to sustain an army even if they did. Japan's proposed terms didn't indicate that they were seriously looking for an end to hostilities with the Soviet Union, either. What territory the Russians did take was essentially an unopposed land grab after de facto hostilities had ended. Unless you think that the military that had completely annihilated Japan's Navy, Air Forces, and that was already occupying Japanese home territory wasn't a factor in the decision to surrender, I don't see much logic that supports that Stalin was the cause of Japanese surrender. Yeah, while the sudden invasion of Manchuria certainly helped close the door that Japanese hoped for a negotiated settlement, the nuclear strikes likely had a large part to do with the Emperors decision to end the war. Russia just closed the door.
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Mar 11, 2023 00:10
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Godholio posted:Toby Keith is the posterchild for cosplaytriots. I don't remember who exposed me to that term, but thank you so much. hey lets be fair a decade before that he was the poster child for family annihilators https://youtu.be/OIjsSu_I4So
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Mar 11, 2023 01:56
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https://twitter.com/TheStudyofWar/status/1634355665677287425?t=Vl-pHan_KrDn31tm-TnRrw&s=19
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Mar 11, 2023 01:57
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A.o.D. posted:I tend to regard the discourse around "Actually Japan surrendered because of Russia" as a solid bit of revisionism. The Russians did not have the means to conduct an opposed beach landing in the Pacific ocean, and didn't have the logistics to sustain an army even if they did. Japan's proposed terms didn't indicate that they were seriously looking for an end to hostilities with the Soviet Union, either. What territory the Russians did take was essentially an unopposed land grab after de facto hostilities had ended. Unless you think that the military that had completely annihilated Japan's Navy, Air Forces, and that was already occupying Japanese home territory wasn't a factor in the decision to surrender, I don't see much logic that supports that Stalin was the cause of Japanese surrender. Wasn't part of it trying to end the war before Stalin linked up with Mao and the Soviet Union would pull China into its political orbit? I'm not sure how much the "Okay after this, we're at war with the commies, plan around that." was on the western allies' mind in '45.
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Mar 11, 2023 02:21
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Ronwayne posted:Wasn't part of it trying to end the war before Stalin linked up with Mao and the Soviet Union would pull China into its political orbit? I'm not sure how much the "Okay after this, we're at war with the commies, plan around that." was on the western allies' mind in '45. Hard to say how much the post war was considered by the US, maybe not that much since they gave the Soviets the stuff needed for the few amphibious landings they did on Japanese territory Project Hula And in 1945 it seems the US still thought the Nationalist side would prevail in China. Kallikaa fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Mar 11, 2023 |
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Mar 11, 2023 03:32
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https://twitter.com/TheStudyofWar/status/1634382326439329792?t=A7rYqGSD_eioithsj2FO4Q&s=19 https://twitter.com/TheStudyofWar/status/1634382329538854914?t=ueTQrk8Q0enCMQtJCPHzYw&s=19 https://twitter.com/TheStudyofWar/status/1634382332743254021?t=PithRDWo2dPsxeoJE7-_6g&s=19
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Mar 11, 2023 03:48
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OctaMurk posted:Steven seagal is still in reserve Steel Reserve
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Mar 11, 2023 03:52
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Tunicate posted:If yoy read the early drafts of Truman's speeches, he seems to have been under the impression he was nuking a 'purely military target', and then had to revise his speech upon learning it was a city instead. A.o.D. posted:I tend to regard the discourse around "Actually Japan surrendered because of Russia" as a solid bit of revisionism. The Russians did not have the means to conduct an opposed beach landing in the Pacific ocean, and didn't have the logistics to sustain an army even if they did. Japan's proposed terms didn't indicate that they were seriously looking for an end to hostilities with the Soviet Union, either. What territory the Russians did take was essentially an unopposed land grab after de facto hostilities had ended. Unless you think that the military that had completely annihilated Japan's Navy, Air Forces, and that was already occupying Japanese home territory wasn't a factor in the decision to surrender, I don't see much logic that supports that Stalin was the cause of Japanese surrender. Thank you for all the extra context and details! This is all really helpful information I never knew much about. I've just been seeing the bit about the intercepted cables and attempts to surrender prior to the bombs pop up in various places over the past few years, but everything recently discussed really helps make a lot more sense of it. I'm just really struggling to make sense of so many things anymore, so I genuinely appreciate all the perspective in this thread!
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Mar 11, 2023 04:04
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Borscht posted:https://twitter.com/AlexandruC4/status/1634296480101015553 If this is true, what are Vladivostok partisans goals? Are they seeking independence?
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Mar 11, 2023 04:28
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shame on an IGA posted:hey lets be fair a decade before that he was the poster child for family annihilators what the gently caress
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Mar 11, 2023 04:32
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Ronwayne posted:Wasn't part of it trying to end the war before Stalin linked up with Mao and the Soviet Union would pull China into its political orbit? I'm not sure how much the "Okay after this, we're at war with the commies, plan around that." was on the western allies' mind in '45. The Soviets were absolutely thinking about a post war order, and potentially a march to Paris if they thought they had to/could get away with it. The Americans? Someone was probably thinking about it, but the main goal at that point was to Bring The Boys Home. OSU_Matthew posted:Thank you for all the extra context and details! This is all really helpful information I never knew much about. I've just been seeing the bit about the intercepted cables and attempts to surrender prior to the bombs pop up in various places over the past few years, but everything recently discussed really helps make a lot more sense of it. Any discussion about the Surrender of Japan in WWII that can fit inside a single post is basically a lie, because like most major events in the war, it wasn't just any one cause, and there isn't just any one credible train of thought around those events. It also isn't helped by the fact that there were and are multiple agendas pushing and pulling the historical narrative attempting to make any given side look better or worse. It is a statement of fact that I am not an authority on the subject, and any opinion I can muster on it amounts to, at best, a barely adequately informed opinion.
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Mar 11, 2023 04:34
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Ronwayne posted:Wasn't part of it trying to end the war before Stalin linked up with Mao and the Soviet Union would pull China into its political orbit? I'm not sure how much the "Okay after this, we're at war with the commies, plan around that." was on the western allies' mind in '45. I doubt it. Even before the split the relations between Chinese Communists and Russia was testy at best. Stalin spent a lot of time playing the Nationalist and Communists off each other to give himself a freer hand in Asia.
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Mar 11, 2023 04:40
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I might be tinfoil hatting a bit, but Ukraine has been exceptional at using social media as a component in its overall operations. The whole "reinforcing Bakhmut, we will never give it up" narrative while watching the reported Russian territorial gains slowly start to encompass the city proper strikes me as a savvy part of their actual stated strategic goal of wearing down Russian forces in advance of the spring campaign season. They are probably not sending massive reinforcements into the city, just enough to continue to make the Russians pay an extremely high cost for acceptably lower casualties to gain an objective that only really matters to the Russians at this point, and even then only as a political objective as taking what is left of the city will not give the Russians any sort of logistical or tactical advantage over the Ukrainians. Attritional warfare is a brutal.
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Mar 11, 2023 04:44
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The X-man cometh posted:If this is true, what are Vladivostok partisans goals? Are they seeking independence? "Move us to a less lovely part of Asia"
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Mar 11, 2023 06:48
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OSU_Matthew posted:Thank you for all the extra context and details! This is all really helpful information I never knew much about. I've just been seeing the bit about the intercepted cables and attempts to surrender prior to the bombs pop up in various places over the past few years, but everything recently discussed really helps make a lot more sense of it. It’s worth noting that yes, American public history education, like public history education in many countries, can be pretty jingoistic. However, many people who grew up on that fall into the opposite trap where they learn that the US was sometimes pretty drat evil and then go on to assume that the US is a unique fountainhead of all that is bad in the world, incapable of doing anything positive and only ever possessing wholly malevolent motivations, because if you can’t trust the propaganda the complete opposite must be true, right? The thing is that what gets taught in schools is frequently not necessarily a lie, but rather a simplification of what actually happened, often with a narrative spin attached. There are more complex and nuanced examinations of the issues out there if you go looking, we don’t actually live in a truth void where nothing can truly be known for sure and while final consensus on the details is often not easily found there is usually a broad consensus on the general shape of events. It’s that broad consensus that curriculum designers draw on for their simplifications but just because it’s a simplification doesn’t mean there’s not solid scholarship behind it somewhere, even if said scholarship might look at the simplification and suck its teeth in and go “Well, I mean, sort of, but…” A general rule of thumb though is that if a given source is treating the decisions, morality and motivations of an entire country as a monolithic whole as opposed to a varied mass of similar but frequently differing and competing interests it’s probably a simplification of some kind. And even then sometimes it actually IS possible to make broad statements like that and have them be true, IE “Yes actually the Confederacy was fundamentally built on the preservation of slavery, end of story” or “No actually Nazi ideology was broken and evil in a highly pervasive and inescapable way, they weren’t just trying to defend German interests.” There is still nuance in explaining how and why those things are true but sometimes it actually is that simple.
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Mar 11, 2023 09:37
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There seems to be a resurgent revisionism that asserts Europe was liberated entirely by the USSR with little to no help from the allies, which has become more pronounced in online Tankie circles since Russia invaded Ukraine. It's always conveniently ignored the fact that the US and UK were fighting a second major war in the Indo-Pacific; this smells like an attempt to fix that narrative by conveniently overstating the degree to which the USSR was active in that theatre.
psydude fucked around with this message at 10:02 on Mar 11, 2023 |
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Mar 11, 2023 09:59
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