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The surgeon seemed sure enough about the cure situation to be willing to try to fight a gun-wielding psychopath who just murdered his way through an entire hospital. I assumed that the medical team has done their experimental homework and are at the point where amputating someone's brain is the only path forward. withak fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 15:56
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withak posted:The surgeon seemed sure enough about the cure situation to be willing to try to fight a gun-wielding psychopath who just murdered his way through an entire hospital. The surgeon was probably equally sure about what Marlene would do to him if he just let Joel take Ellie uncontested, too. To wit, being "the doctor who saved humanity" would also set him up pretty well in ~the new world order~. Given the artistic license they took, if they'd taken a tack where they'd be biopsying the Cordyceps in Ellie's brain, that would be something that's still extremely risky, since they'd probably want the growth in her brain stem and medulla, it still wouldn't mean her assured death. I know I'm reading into it a bit here, but "this little girl died so all of you can live" is a pretty powerful narrative for the Fireflies to peddle along with the cure. Ellie was more valuable to them as a martyr. BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 15:59
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I didn't get the feeling the Fireflies wanted to be FEDRA at all. They kept talking about bringing things back to the way they were before.
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Mar 13, 2023 16:00
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Ellie had no automity in this decision for that person making that argument. We can assume that she likely would have gone along with the treatment, but she's not given a choice. And she sure as hell wouldn't have done it without speaking to Joel first. Do you think if Ellie said "give me some time to think about it" that they would have let her go? They absolutely wouldn't have. They were going to kill her with or without her consent.
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Mar 13, 2023 16:04
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Marx Headroom posted:I didn't get the feeling the Fireflies wanted to be FEDRA at all. They kept talking about bringing things back to the way they were before. They attacked FEDRA in ways that hazarded civilians to make said civilians know FEDRA couldn't protect them, and the leadership clearly saw their personnel as disposable. There is no "bringing things back to the way they were before" from as far gone poo poo had gotten, that's just another narrative "freedom fighters" use to recruit and forgive their atrocities. They ultimately wanted to be in charge and they were willing to do whatever it took to accomplish that.
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Mar 13, 2023 16:08
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Anybody saying anything about the doctor is talking from either the game or from their imagination, because the show gave us absolutely nothing about him. The idea that he is a brilliant surgeon or a bumbling idiot. A genius vaccine expert or a grad student pretending to be one. An arrogant tosser who doesn't care about Ellie or Davids brother with the same urges. Nobody knows because nothing was shown about him on screen.
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Mar 13, 2023 16:09
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bucketybuck posted:Anybody saying anything about the doctor is talking from either the game or from their imagination, because the show gave us absolutely nothing about him. We know he didn't hesitate to throw down with the psychopath who just murdered the entire rest of the hospital.
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Mar 13, 2023 16:21
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A lot of you, and I mean this earnestly, should consider a media literacy course at like a community college. "The fact that he turned into a cockroach, is on it's face, ridiculous". Second verse same as the first.
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Mar 13, 2023 16:21
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The doctor was dumb enough to grab a scalpel and try to threaten a guy with a gun
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Mar 13, 2023 16:21
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Yeah all that picking up the scalpel says to me is that the doctor is terrified and desperate, not that he was sure of his theory. And speaking of the ending being a teaser, well it is obviously going to hit different when people know that there is a second game already AND a second season is the works.
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Mar 13, 2023 16:34
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Frionnel posted:Yeah all that picking up the scalpel says to me is that the doctor is terrified and desperate, not that he was sure of his theory. Both are acceptable and understandable terms. And likely both are true. But even if they were incompetent and desperate (like the entire world currently is) it doesn't mean they don't feel their actions are justified. Frionnel posted:And speaking of the ending being a teaser, well it is obviously going to hit different when people know that there is a second game already AND a second season is the works. Does the ending of Godfather 1 feel worse watching it now because we all know godfather part 2 exists? Like sure, as an audience you know meta information outside of the media, but does that really make the written story worse? Who even knows what season 2 is going to be about. Is this a direct sequel? An anthology? A whole new direction? This feels on a similar level to reading spoilers and then complaining that nothing surprised you in the show.
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Mar 13, 2023 16:40
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i remember being bored of Godfather and not finishing it or getting distracted but I read the wikipedia for it just now and it sounds alright but I'm not getting suckered into another cinematic universe and a bunch of mystery boxes
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Mar 13, 2023 16:47
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BIG HEADLINE posted:That all aside, I know there's a plot armor aspect, but no way Joel takes on that many heavily armed men in an environment they know instinctively and gets out without getting hit. No way he takes on that many competent armed men, but these are Fireflies.
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Mar 13, 2023 16:52
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Megasabin posted:The reading that Fireflys are completely incompetent and unable to make a vaccine has always been a shallow framework to discuss the moral implications of the story. It undermines what the story is going for and makes it a very boring "Joel was right" end of story line of reasoning. This is so clearly not what the writers are going for. if the writers were going for something else they should have done it better then, cause from the information presented Joel is 100% right and the fireflies are idiots
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Mar 13, 2023 16:53
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WoodrowSkillson posted:if the writers were going for something else they should have done it better then, cause from the information presented Joel is 100% right and the fireflies are idiots Directly under what you quoted I wrote, "I do think it is legit criticism to say that if the story made you feel that way, then it didn't do a good enough job at communicating the objective facts required for it's thematic underpinnings to work. But if you want to engage with the story's moral dilemma you need to accept the Firefly's were likely going to be able to do something with the results of the surgery. If you can't do that, then just take a pass, say the show/game is bad, and move on, because it's not an interesting conversation if you assume otherwise."
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Mar 13, 2023 16:55
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Kwolok posted:A lot of you, and I mean this earnestly, should consider a media literacy course at like a community college. You keep making these passive aggressive insulting posts, are you really so threatened by people having criticisms of the show?
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Mar 13, 2023 16:58
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Megasabin posted:Directly under what you quoted I wrote, yeah and i disagree with that because you are inserting your own interpretation of what the writers intended on to the material. there is no reason for me to think i should be giving weight to theory the fireflies present as it is a ludicrous idea surrounded by them also acting like complete morons. The writers chose to have marlene look like an incompetent idiot, the doctor look like a quack, and they then have them rationalize killing a person without their consent. before even doing some kind of biopsy or other preliminary work. if they can't get a small sample of the cordyceps from Ellie, there is no reason to think they are capable of loving growing cell cultures and mass producing a treatment. its nonsensical.
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Mar 13, 2023 17:01
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withak posted:We know he didn't hesitate to throw down with the psychopath who just murdered the entire rest of the hospital. We know he didn't stop proceeding with the very complicated and potentially world changing surgery despite the entire hospital getting murdered in the background. What, its been 20 years since the world ended but they couldn't hang on for a few hours more to let things settle down?
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Mar 13, 2023 17:03
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Kwolok posted:Does the ending of Godfather 1 feel worse watching it now because we all know godfather part 2 exists? Like sure, as an audience you know meta information outside of the media, but does that really make the written story worse? Who even knows what season 2 is going to be about. Is this a direct sequel? An anthology? A whole new direction? This feels on a similar level to reading spoilers and then complaining that nothing surprised you in the show. I don't think at all that the ending is worse (and for full disclosure, my entire experience with this franchise is playing the first game from the middle point to the end at my cousin's house). But it's in a different context now and i'm not surprised people think it's teasery.
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Mar 13, 2023 17:05
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If I didn’t know this was the last episode, I would have thought that next week they’d go into the town and find it invaded/overrun/something. I think that’s what people mean when they say it felt teasery, and for me felt like a dissatisfying ending (especially when the episode was so rushed-through - I literally thought it had 20 more minutes or something). It’s surprising to hear people with knowledge of the second game say that they go there and live an idyllic life there or something? Or maybe they’re just saying that’s what you should assume based on the ending of this one - I certainly didn’t, however.
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Mar 13, 2023 17:18
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WoodrowSkillson posted:yeah and i disagree with that because you are inserting your own interpretation of what the writers intended on to the material. Yeah if I went on a ski trip and the bus took a left turn I wouldn't be thrilled at the bus driver telling me to gear up and slalom that there Iowa corn field.
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Mar 13, 2023 17:20
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for me, if assuming perpetuation of humanity is a goal and that the current state of things does not qualify*, I'd trolly one person to save the rest of humanity. We kill people for much less and also no reason, the value of life is completely arbitrary, and is probably at its highest in purely theoretical abstract scenarios like in trolley problems. In real life we'd let the trains double-track-drift to hit all people on tracks and then derail and poison the water supply and regional community. If the game and show are wanting to ask "would u kill 1 to save all?" Well, a) hasn't the game/show already answered this question since you'll kill many to protect 2 and b) yeah, sure, since this question implies the sacrifice equals salvation. The game/show never present this to us, however, and is instead appearing to ask "would you kill 1, for a really sketchy and absurd all-or-nothing gamble on maybe a potential medicine that might work even though absolutely no information presented would indicate it possibly could?" and answering that can still be yes, but then you're basically the origin story of a supervillain running an orphan fungus bite factory trying to crack a cruel cure no matter the cost. *Humanity seems to be doing well enough, could absolutely be much worse. This isn't the first time humanity has lived in a world overwhelmingly hostile to them, full of beasts that can kill them and wipe out their communities. Hard to think of times in history when at least some human civs weren't living under some fascist boot or other. Seems they lucked out and all the powerplants and things out there haven't exploded poisoning everything, really, without a cure there's no reason humanity can't just keep on keeping on. Humans covering the whole planet and acting as the ultimate destructive invasive species literally everywhere we go now isn't necessarily something to preserve, it's our own real-life apocalypse event ongoing.
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Mar 13, 2023 17:24
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Megasabin posted:The reading that Fireflys are completely incompetent and unable to make a vaccine has always been a shallow framework to discuss the moral implications of the story. It undermines what the story is going for and makes it a very boring "Joel was right" end of story line of reasoning. This is so clearly not what the writers are going for. Yes, exactly. The show's (inherited from the game's) inability to setup a plausible argument that the Fireflies are competent undercuts all further discussion of the moral dilemma they told us they want to have. Ultimately, and perhaps unsurprisingly, the best moments of the show were those furthest divorced from the game. It's a bit disappointing that the show peaked in episode 3. It's not even that the Fireflies generally are incompetent. Marlene never shows up on screen without somebody on her side dying. Marlene, as presented in the show, is a screw up.
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Mar 13, 2023 17:24
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bucketybuck posted:We know he didn't stop proceeding with the very complicated and potentially world changing surgery despite the entire hospital getting murdered in the background. I'm wondering whether that doctor should really have a license to practice medicine.
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Mar 13, 2023 17:28
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he got into medicine after the apocalypse, like the preacher did with religion
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Mar 13, 2023 17:29
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LLSix posted:Yes, exactly. The show's (inherited from the game's) inability to setup a plausible argument that the Fireflies are competent undercuts all further discussion of the moral dilemma they told us they want to have.
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Mar 13, 2023 17:30
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WoodrowSkillson posted:yeah and i disagree with that because you are inserting your own interpretation of what the writers intended on to the material. there is no reason for me to think i should be giving weight to theory the fireflies present as it is a ludicrous idea surrounded by them also acting like complete morons. The writers chose to have marlene look like an incompetent idiot, the doctor look like a quack, and they then have them rationalize killing a person without their consent. before even doing some kind of biopsy or other preliminary work. if they can't get a small sample of the cordyceps from Ellie, there is no reason to think they are capable of loving growing cell cultures and mass producing a treatment. its nonsensical. There's two ways to interpret the story. Your way requires the show/game to delve into the the actual medical science (dull & unnecessary, especially in such a lean narrative) and makes the themes ethically one dimensionally, removing anything of interest from the story. The other way requires an element of suspension of belief in terms of keeping the exact science ambiguous, but leads to a much richer thematic analysis. Sounds like you need a lot of tactical realism in your fiction. That's fine and then this story isn't going to work for you, but your loss imo. Also, I think it's a pretty easy case to say my interpretation is the same as the writers because of explicit changes the writers made between games 1 & 2 and for this adaptation to increase the credibility of the fireflies to avoid this exact interpertation.They clearly didn't make enough changes for it work for everyone, including you, and that is a legit criticism of the narrative.
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Mar 13, 2023 17:31
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Context posted:It’s surprising to hear people with knowledge of the second game say that they go there and live an idyllic life there or something? Or maybe they’re just saying that’s what you should assume based on the ending of this one - I certainly didn’t, however. Well you saw how Jackson was when they visited it. Pretty idyllic as far as it gets in this world
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Mar 13, 2023 17:35
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Megasabin posted:explicit changes the writers made between games 1 & 2 and for this adaptation to increase the credibility of the fireflies to avoid this exact interpertation. So out of curiosity what are the changes they made for this adaptation? Assuming it won't be spoilers.
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Mar 13, 2023 17:37
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Is the original TLOU game thread archived still on these forums? It would be fun to go back through them a decade later and see the exact same arguments/debates being repeated from then and now. It's actually really entertaining to me. Frionnel posted:So out of curiosity what are the changes they made for this adaptation? Assuming it won't be spoilers. The entire dialogue from Marlene about the messenger stuff explaining why Ellie's immune wasn't in the game. They definitely added more medical mumbo-jumbo to try and persuade the audience that creating a cure would have probably been successful. And the whole flashback with Ellie's mom wasn't in the game to explain why she specifically was special and why they probably weren't going to find someone else who was immune, or immune in a way that could create a cure other than her. qbert fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 17:38
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Jetrauben posted:I don't know, I think that's always been very deliberately intentional. The interpretation I've always been fond of is TLOU is about dealing with grief. The big finale isn't so much directly about a cure as it is about what that cure represents - a desperate flight back into memories of better days, or an acceptance of tragedy and moving forward anyways. Joel talking about how you need to find a new way forward and discussing his suicide attempt feels like a rather unsubtle statement of this thesis. That's an interesting way of looking at it. I rather like that framing.
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Mar 13, 2023 17:39
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bucketybuck posted:You keep making these passive aggressive insulting posts, are you really so threatened by people having criticisms of the show? Look, people are going to interact with media how they interact with media. But there is a staggering difference between saying "I didn't like" or "I would have preferred" and "This writing is bad" but most people cannot seem to make that connection. If you have valid criticism, levy it, but most people are either intentionally misreading, not remembering key facts, or inserting their own head canon into the show. Saying "I didn't like the ending because it was abrupt" is totally valid. But its meant to be abrupt. Its meant to just stop and say "They both know the lie, they both are living in the lie, this is how these broken characters have come together, there is no happy ending, there is no ever-after, this is the ugliness of love and clawing connection." Now if you don't like that, that is totally fine, if you need that epilogue, sure I guess. But its very clear the lingering, the abruptness, the feeling of being left wanting is incredibly intentional. If you want to elucidate on why that is bad writing outside of you wanting more that would be cool.
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Mar 13, 2023 17:40
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Megasabin posted:Your way requires the show/game to delve into the the actual medical science (dull & unnecessary, especially in such a lean narrative) It really doesn't need much. Even tech magical nonsense Star Trek would throw out a suggested fix, show them trying it, and the failed attempt informing next steps. That abandoned hospital where Joel got bunted could've been the setup. Show monkeys in cages with half of them infected. Maybe they find a dissected clicker on an operating table. I don't know, just show us the Fireflies have been trying but nothing else works instead of taking it on faith from Marlene. This is basic stuff. I'm not saying the show is bad or anything but show your audience a little respect! We're not all idiots and when something doesn't add up our brains get distracted from the ~themes~
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Mar 13, 2023 17:44
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From memory they did make Fireflies more ruthless than the original game. There was more talk about acceptable civilian casualties. In the game there wasn't a planned bombing campaign to draw attention away from city hall and the fireflies that were supposed to take Ellie were caught by Fedra. ^^^^ They might not have done that because they wanted to bring in more of what's been learned about Cordyceps since the game came out. Like we know that cross species experimentation is useless because Cordyceps are so highly specialized that different types of insects are infected by different strains. For example, a strain that takes carpenter ants is harmless to fire ants. Macdeo Lurjtux fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 17:45
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Marx Headroom posted:It really doesn't need much. Even tech magical nonsense Star Trek would throw out a suggested fix, show them trying it, and the failed attempt informing next steps. Is all you need like "Joel, we ran so many tests on her back in Boston, we've done all we can do without cracking her open"?
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Mar 13, 2023 17:47
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Megasabin posted:There's two ways to interpret the story. I'm not looking for tactical realism. I don't want lengthy explanations of how a clicker is created or some nonsense like that. I've never even critiqued the show much in this thread as I've enjoyed it the whole time. But "the fungus is in her head therefore we have to kill her RIGHT NOW" before even attempting anything else (thus destroying the only living specimen of immunity known) is wildly insane, coupled with Marlene's genius idea to tell Joel before it happens and not after, and then also sending him to be executed shows they were all idiots and were not going to be saving anyone even if by some absurd miracle the quack doctors idea worked.
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Mar 13, 2023 17:47
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WoodrowSkillson posted:I'm not looking for tactical realism. I don't want lengthy explanations of how a clicker is created or some nonsense like that. I've never even critiqued the show much in this thread as I've enjoyed it the whole time. But "the fungus is in her head therefore we have to kill her RIGHT NOW" before even attempting anything else (thus destroying the only living specimen of immunity known) is wildly insane, coupled with Marlene's genius idea to tell Joel before it happens and not after, and then also sending him to be executed shows they were all idiots and were not going to be saving anyone even if by some absurd miracle the quack doctors idea worked. They didn't send him to be executed. Marlene tried to show him compassion by letting him go, but did threaten him by saying if he tried anything they would shoot him. But they were originally going to walk him to the highway, give him his bag and send him on his way. But they understood the stakes so she added "if he tries anything, shoot him"
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Mar 13, 2023 17:50
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Marx Headroom posted:It really doesn't need much. Even tech magical nonsense Star Trek would throw out a suggested fix, show them trying it, and the failed attempt informing next steps. This is interesting to me, because I think showing respect to the audience is actually not walking them through the medical science. They probably thought it would be enough to lean on implicit cues like Marlene's emotions & connection to Ellie/her mother to convey she believes she is making a very real sacrifice for a good cause. There's also the implicit evidence of the fireflies taking time, resources, and effort away from their fight against Freda and channeling it into obtaining control over a hospital with working facilities and finding a brain surgeon.
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Mar 13, 2023 17:51
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Kwolok posted:They didn't send him to be executed. Marlene tried to show him compassion by letting him go, but did threaten him by saying if he tried anything they would shoot him. But they were originally going to walk him to the highway, give him his bag and send him on his way. But they understood the stakes so she added "if he tries anything, shoot him" If they were actually going to let him go than it's even more evidence in the "absolute morons" pile since there is absolutely no way that ends well for them.
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Mar 13, 2023 17:53
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I think way too many folks ITT are unwilling / unwanting / unable to evaluate ONLY the TV show separate from the game, which causes most of the disagreements. Is it a good video game adaptation? Probably ... that seems to be the consensus, but I haven't played it. Is it a good standalone TV show? Absolutely not, in my opinion, for all of the reasons I've listed and many others have as well. I don't care about the science or seemingly irrational decision making by various parties. It just had no consistent flow/plotting, didn't seem to care about the threat OR the solution to the threat (except when it was convenient), and as a show-only person I had NO CLUE that this was the "end" of our current story, which maybe they should have made more effort in the meta to convey that since anyone watching is at least peripherally aware of a second game / second+ season. Maybe if it was on a different network I personally wouldn't have been bringing in prestige expectations, but I can't help wanting more than a fancy veneer when I see the ~StAtiC AnGeL~ Context posted:If I didn’t know this was the last episode, I would have thought that next week they’d go into the town and find it invaded/overrun/something. When they got to that scene overlooking the town I was squinting to try to see if it was currently on fire/being invaded/fighting broke out or something because that's how these narratives usually go too haha.
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