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SlothfulCobra posted:In practice, the writers hadn't thought much about the idea that the brain slug would have separate memories and persona from the host, so they never really do much to clarify anything about Jadzia as a person apart from the brain slug. Whenever the subject comes up, she just says something about how great brain slugs are. This was always least thought-out part of the Trill lore. It's repeatedly implied that the symbionts themselves are supposed to be sentient beings in their own right, but in practice we only ever see them function as squishy hard drives for storing humanoid memories, with no apparent thoughts or feelings or desires of their own.
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Mar 16, 2023 05:06
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Entropic posted:This was always least thought-out part of the Trill lore. It's repeatedly implied that the symbionts themselves are supposed to be sentient beings in their own right, but in practice we only ever see them function as squishy hard drives for storing humanoid memories, with no apparent thoughts or feelings or desires of their own. I definitely got the opposite vibes. The host basically dies as an ego and is taken over by the worm. Who might take on a few hobbies and quirks from the host but it's the worm driving the boat.
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Mar 16, 2023 05:35
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Trill are Goa'uld with better marketing.
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Mar 16, 2023 07:37
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CainFortea posted:I definitely got the opposite vibes. The host basically dies as an ego and is taken over by the worm. Who might take on a few hobbies and quirks from the host but it's the worm driving the boat. That's how it appears in the original TNG episode but we wouldn't be having this discussion about Jadzia and Ezri if that were true, in DS9 it seems like a fairly equal joining
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Mar 16, 2023 09:50
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Nessus posted:Melora wasn’t disabled, she was from a low G planet, wasn’t she? A farce of a metaphor. Like saying a Bolian is disabled because O’Brien fears the power of a Bolian dump They were trying to do a commentary on disabilities while also doing the little mermaid and it made both situations weird and makes everything fall apart if you try to think about it. The consequence of the treatment was to never be able to go back to her family and home and it was written like it was a foregone conclusion that she should want to. She wouldn't be adding capabilities, she would be trading one for another. Also, instead of being able to fly while also using a wheelchair to access other places, she would not be able to access the flying places at all in the walking scenario. She's worse off after being 'cured ' Oh, and her mobility is usually better than we see, it's just DS9 that's the problem. She very sincerely apologizes to Bashir at the end for not being able to do it? What The writers completely failed at understanding the character's point of view
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Mar 16, 2023 10:05
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Was Bashir ever in the right? Being very smart but wrong and stubborn about literally everything just seemed to just be his character.
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Mar 16, 2023 10:39
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dr_rat posted:Was Bashir ever in the right? Being very smart but wrong and stubborn about literally everything just seemed to just be his character. He does kind of cure the Quickening, and he takes the correct position in telling S31 to shove it. Very problematic when it comes to doctor/patient relationships though
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Mar 16, 2023 11:03
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Even with the quickening he has to have Dax slap him upside the head and say "dumbfuck, it's not impossible just because YOU can't solve it" Also he is shown to still be working on a treatment for those still infected throughout the series.
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Mar 16, 2023 12:13
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dr_rat posted:Was Bashir ever in the right? Being very smart but wrong and stubborn about literally everything just seemed to just be his character. When he sniffed out that Dukat was using Borlble or Trumble or whatever his name was to embarrass a political rival. All time Garak line in that one: "I was in the resistance at the time" "WELL MAYBE WE HAVE MET BEFORE"
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Mar 16, 2023 14:04
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IIRC Melora shows up in the Titan books running Astrometrics and absolutely just zooms around in zero G. Never took that treatment.
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Mar 16, 2023 14:13
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No Dignity posted:He does kind of cure the Quickening, and he takes the correct position in telling S31 to shove it. Very problematic when it comes to doctor/patient relationships though Dr Franklin in Babylon 5 had the same problem. Something about 90s scifi show writers completely failing to understand how much of a hard line ethical no-no it is.
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Mar 16, 2023 14:22
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No Dignity posted:That's how it appears in the original TNG episode but we wouldn't be having this discussion about Jadzia and Ezri if that were true, in DS9 it seems like a fairly equal joining What I said is in no way countered by ezri and jadzia acting differently though. The worm is going to be different in different hosts.
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Mar 16, 2023 14:26
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:IIRC Melora shows up in the Titan books running Astrometrics and absolutely just zooms around in zero G. Never took that treatment.
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Mar 16, 2023 14:31
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Nessus posted:Yeah I never got why giving her super muscles was gonna take that away. Logically Melora should have become a Saiyan elite and been able to flit around in both places, but I think Julian may also be kind of a quack. As I recall he once grew a clone by accident. He goes absolutely mental when exposed to zero G, bro you work in space.
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Mar 16, 2023 14:36
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CainFortea posted:What I said is in no way countered by ezri and jadzia acting differently though. The worm is going to be different in different hosts. I'm not sure what you're seeing then, they both retain their memories and strong elements elements of their prior personalities but also they're completely subsumed by the symbiont? What tells you this?
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Mar 16, 2023 14:42
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Dr Franklin in Babylon 5 had the same problem. Something about 90s scifi show writers completely failing to understand how much of a hard line ethical no-no it is. Probably something to do with the writers of them growing up in the 70's and 80's when stuff like work place sexual harassment just being a fine and fun thing. Teacher/student is a super hosed up thing I know is something that would pop up as something writer thinks every one should consider super hot, as well. As far as I can tell during that time and before ethics around sex was purely a vague theoretical thing, not really related to day to day life.
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Mar 16, 2023 14:48
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No Dignity posted:I'm not sure what you're seeing then, they both retain their memories and strong elements elements of their prior personalities but also they're completely subsumed by the symbiont? What tells you this? Watching the show. They both act as different people, and that one episode letting all of dax's previous iterations out to play also shows that they're all different people. But like, that person isn't the host. The person the host was, before union, is dead. They are never coming back. They can't change or learn. That person, in every way that matters, is dead. In their place is the symbiont who is, certainly effected by the process and is colored by the person the host was at the point of union. But importantly they can still access the memories of their prior unions and who they were back then.
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Mar 16, 2023 14:55
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Dr Franklin in Babylon 5 had the same problem. Something about 90s scifi show writers completely failing to understand how much of a hard line ethical no-no it is. Chrysalis is very much about how inappropriate Bashir is being and O'Brien says as much to his face, it's just an episode about not being a MeToo guy
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Mar 16, 2023 14:56
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I don't think I've gotten to the point in B5 where Dr Franklin is a problem (I'm six episodes in), but Garibaldi is a walking #MeToo incident.
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Mar 16, 2023 15:32
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CainFortea posted:Watching the show. The episode "Invasive Procedures" disagrees with this. The guy who steals the Dax symbiont becomes more confident, more strong-willed and gains access to all of the symbiont's host memories, but he's fundamentally still the same person he was before joining. He still wants to abscond with the symbiont, is still fine with Dax dying and still ultimately doesn't give a poo poo about Sisko despite having Curzon's personality remnant in him.
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Mar 16, 2023 15:41
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:I don't think I've gotten to the point in B5 where Dr Franklin is a problem (I'm six episodes in), but Garibaldi is a walking #MeToo incident. Hey, that's just art imitating life. (Uh, don't google Jerry Doyle until you're at least a couple more seasons in, unless you want to get spoiled about some plot and casting decisions.)
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Mar 16, 2023 15:41
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Man, B5 really just didn't have much luck with it cast.
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Mar 16, 2023 15:46
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BYRON
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Mar 16, 2023 15:48
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Dr. Gargunza posted:Hey, that's just art imitating life. (Uh, don't google Jerry Doyle until you're at least a couple more seasons in, unless you want to get spoiled about some plot and casting decisions.) Yeah, I've already been slightly spoiled about Sinclair and I think Tanya (the somewhat Elizabeth Dehner-like telepath).
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Mar 16, 2023 15:51
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McSpanky posted:The episode "Invasive Procedures" disagrees with this. The guy who steals the Dax symbiont becomes more confident, more strong-willed and gains access to all of the symbiont's host memories, but he's fundamentally still the same person he was before joining. He still wants to abscond with the symbiont, is still fine with Dax dying and still ultimately doesn't give a poo poo about Sisko despite having Curzon's personality remnant in him. If Tom Riker gets to exist because one example against the standard information, then so does the worm thief.
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Mar 16, 2023 16:07
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dr_rat posted:Man, B5 really just didn't have much luck with it cast. B5 didn't have a big budget, which meant they hired people who were good actors but had trouble finding work (Richard Biggs was deaf, Mira Furlan had trouble speaking English, Jerry Doyle was an alcoholic, Bill Mumy was a famous child actor who couldn't find much work as an adult, Michael O'Hare was schizophrenic, and so on.
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Mar 16, 2023 16:41
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Yeah that makes sense. At least Andreas Katsulas and Peter Jurasik didn't have any issues I'm aware of and were able to see their characters arcs through. Some amazing acting right there.
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Mar 16, 2023 16:49
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CainFortea posted:If Tom Riker gets to exist because one example against the standard information, then so does the worm thief. I think, crucially, he's the only example we have (in DS9) of someone who gets a symbiont and then loses it without dying, and when he loses it he just goes back to the way he was before he got it. There's no plethora of counter-examples to call it an outlier.
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Mar 16, 2023 16:51
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McSpanky posted:I think, crucially, he's the only example we have (in DS9) of someone who gets a symbiont and then loses it without dying, and when he loses it he just goes back to the way he was before he got it. There's no plethora of counter-examples to call it an outlier. At the end of the day Trek is really bad about having consistency with basically anything world building wise, so it's mostly all vibes based anyway. Like, in the other star trek thread i have explained why teleporters can't just clone people or why the theory that the federation can just replicate anything everywhere doesn't actually work for a lot of stuff and have to end every post with "Please ignore the times the shows ignore this info"
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Mar 16, 2023 17:08
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Like the point of a lot of sci fi rules aren't necessarily to be consistent rules but so you understand that when they are broken its important.
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Mar 16, 2023 17:17
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Nessus posted:Yeah I never got why giving her super muscles was gonna take that away. Logically Melora should have become a Saiyan elite and been able to flit around in both places, but I think Julian may also be kind of a quack. As I recall he once grew a clone by accident. Bashir strikes me as both the kind of dumbass who'd accidentally leave his Rolex watch behind in a patient's chest cavity as he's suturing them up AND the kind of shithead who carves his initials in someone's liver or kidneys with a scalpel like he's an artist signing a painting before he finishes surgery.
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Mar 16, 2023 17:21
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Yea, but you can't have the one without the other. If you don't set expectations properly, it's basically meaningless when you change them.
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Mar 16, 2023 17:22
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dr_rat posted:Yeah that makes sense. At least Andreas Katsulas and Peter Jurasik didn't have any issues I'm aware of and were able to see their characters arcs through. Some amazing acting right there. yeah, neither of them had any real issues like some of the rest of the cast, they were just both working TV actors who hadn't gotten a big break or major recurring role yet
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Mar 16, 2023 17:31
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dr_rat posted:Was Bashir ever in the right? Being very smart but wrong and stubborn about literally everything just seemed to just be his character. Don't dox me
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Mar 16, 2023 17:33
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McSpanky posted:The episode "Invasive Procedures" disagrees with this. The guy who steals the Dax symbiont becomes more confident, more strong-willed and gains access to all of the symbiont's host memories, but he's fundamentally still the same person he was before joining. He still wants to abscond with the symbiont, is still fine with Dax dying and still ultimately doesn't give a poo poo about Sisko despite having Curzon's personality remnant in him. I don't agree with this read on the episode, having just watched it. He's a completely different person and that's the fulcrum that Sisko uses to turn his gf against him. They are really inconsistent on exactly how the symbiont/host dynamic works, and it changes between episodes. I just watched Facets and Jadzia acts exactly the same after having each hosts memories removed from her and it just occurred to me right now: why wasn't Verad part of that episode 
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Mar 16, 2023 17:42
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nine-gear crow posted:Bashir strikes me as both the kind of dumbass who'd accidentally leave his Rolex watch behind in a patient's chest cavity as he's suturing them up AND the kind of shithead who carves his initials in someone's liver or kidneys with a scalpel like he's an artist signing a painting before he finishes surgery. Well now I want a scene of Bashir and Garak singing "Guy Love"
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Mar 16, 2023 17:48
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zoux posted:why wasn't Verad part of that episode There wasn't a full melding between Dax and Verad which is why Dax could be removed in the first place is my theory.
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Mar 16, 2023 17:52
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John Glover was so good in that episode. Season 2 has some insanely good guest stars, kicking off the season with the franchise's first three-parter featuring Louise Fletcher and Frank Langella is a huge flex. I'm definitely enjoying the Bajoran politics stuff a lot more this time around.
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Mar 16, 2023 17:59
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zoux posted:John Glover was so good in that episode. Season 2 has some insanely good guest stars, kicking off the season with the franchise's first three-parter featuring Louise Fletcher and Frank Langella is a huge flex. I'm definitely enjoying the Bajoran politics stuff a lot more this time around. Well, holy poo poo.
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Mar 16, 2023 18:24
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Tanya (the somewhat Elizabeth Dehner-like telepath). J Michael Stracynzki just got super mad and he doesn't know why lol
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Mar 16, 2023 18:41
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