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Honestly I think the only way they could really make specialist classes work is if they more tightly curated the class spell lists. One of the biggest things that has always differentiated the Wizard, the Cleric and the Druid from one another was the spells they gained access to. You wouldn't even necessarily need to make them fully mechanically specialized, you'd just need to make sure that all of the spells on their list fit around a particular theme. A pyromancer wouldn't have to only throw fire at people, but the spells they use are all themed around fire for how the achieve their effects: You could cleanse yourself of toxins by heating up your body so you sweat them out, you could gain access to something like heat metal to debuff your opponents, etc. As it stands now, wizards don't really have a sort of thematic constraint on their spell list beyond "Whatever magic poo poo a spellcaster could conceivably do" so they basically already cover almost any specialist variant.
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Mar 16, 2023 20:26
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KingKalamari posted:I feel like I might have lost the thread of the argument you're making? It's just not a problem in the first place. To immediately repeat myself, specialists vs. generalists was executed just fine in 4E, and insofar as it wasn't it's because being a specialist was too good. As you say, differentiating psionics from spellcasting could be done in a quick and likely-unsatisfying way ("okay you're a wizard but your spell components have slightly different rules") or an extremely labor-intensive way, but I don't think this bears on the oft-repeated claim that it should be impossible to be a wizard, and your choices should only be between being a necromancer or abjurer or w/e. PurpleXVI posted:Well, it obviously depends on how specialized you force specialists to be. But do you, in fact, force specialization? Can someone not pick a magic school? PF2 has a "universalist" option for wizards, and while I'm not that familiar with how it shakes out in practice I don't think I've seen people complain about those guys specifically being too strong or having too easy a time short-circuiting challenges. 4e, my go-to example, has a number of dials you can tweak in the direction of being a generalist rather than a specialist: 1) Class features that are generically useful rather than specifically-suited to some spell type or combat strategy (i.e. staff of defense vs. orb of imposition) 2) Feats which, if you don't spend them on enhancing your fire damage or your summoning spells or something, can be tuned to more broadly useful or varied ends 3) The wizard's boutique "I know more powers than I can prepare and cast in a single day" mechanic, which a number of build options allowed you to invest heavily in such that you could hot-swap per-encounters and dailies on a limited basis Now, in a game with really freeform magic, you need to come up with good reasons that someone would be a "fire mage" rather than a "mage" because then you're in a situation where one character just has more options than the other at no apparent cost. But D&D-style game with distinct, pre-picked powers that go in a limited number of slots don't have this problem.
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Mar 16, 2023 20:27
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A D&D where every class has its own curated ability list that emphasises its theme and function you say
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Mar 16, 2023 20:37
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Ferrinus posted:It's just not a problem in the first place. To immediately repeat myself, specialists vs. generalists was executed just fine in 4E, and insofar as it wasn't it's because being a specialist was too good. But the thing is that the implementation in 4e also involved fundamentally reworking the way the spell system operated to both unify its mechanics across classes while also more strongly curating the abilities that could be selected by each class. And this is a valid way to solve the psionics and other specialized class problem. But I'm talking about the problem the magic system and the wizard's relationship to it causes for implementing psionics in other editions that are still working off some version of the Vancian casting system. The wizard of 4e is itself something more of a specialist in the way I'm describing because the selection of spells they get over their career is more tightly curated than it was in previous editions and, most notably, no longer have access to the outright psychic-themed spells they did in earlier editions. I feel like we're having two different arguments while also agreeing with one another?
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Mar 16, 2023 20:40
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Spheres of Power is neat, I've heard.
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Mar 16, 2023 21:10
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KingKalamari posted:I'm talking about the problem the magic system and the wizard's relationship to it causes for implementing psionics in other editions that are still working off some version of the Vancian casting system. I don’t think their actual spell list really bears this out, and I’ve never seen any designer comments on it either way, but when I saw the original version of the Sorcerer in 3.0 I immediately saw it as an attempt to implement the “I have mysterious spell-like abilities that don’t use the standard Vancian system” aspect of the psionicist without either devising a completely unique subsystem or having to deal with the genre-busting ‘70s sci-fi baggage. (And then they brought psionics back later anyway, Because It’s Tradition) Much like I always thought of 4e’s Warlord as implementing a version of the Bard-style support class that didn’t have the aesthetic baggage the Bard had accumulated (like, there’s two guys swinging swords, one casting a spell, and then another one jamming out on a lute?).
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Mar 16, 2023 21:26
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It would be better if schools of magic were less "I throw fireballs" vs "I... alter things" and more "I injected magic tree sap into my blood and now I am slowly becoming a tree with tree powers" vs "I'm a little freak with a gun"
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Mar 16, 2023 21:45
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KingKalamari posted:But the thing is that the implementation in 4e also involved fundamentally reworking the way the spell system operated to both unify its mechanics across classes while also more strongly curating the abilities that could be selected by each class. And this is a valid way to solve the psionics and other specialized class problem. But I'm talking about the problem the magic system and the wizard's relationship to it causes for implementing psionics in other editions that are still working off some version of the Vancian casting system. Well, for instance, you could have given the 4E wizard the entire 3E wizard spell list (with, hypothetically, the same kind of balance pass/facelift all the existing spells got, e.g. Finger of Death deals a crapload of necrotic and more if it bloodies you and then kills you if you have 20hp left after all else is resolved, instead of just being a straightforward save-or-die). You could even let them poach every classic D&D spell that became a sorcerer, warlock, druid, or cleric power but that used to be on the wizard spell list, with the relevant ability score changed to Int as needed. But that wouldn't get around the fact that on any given day your wizard is only going to be using two at-wills, one to four per-encounters, one to four dailies, and, I forget, I think utilities topped out at six? And then, even if they're an Essentials wizard, they're only going to have a bonus magic missile plus one extra power from each of those non at-will categories in reserve. That is to say, you can restrict how much stuff a wizard can have ready at once instead of restricting what stuff they're allowed to pick from, and you'll have solved your balance problems. Now, you might want to have pyromancers and beguilers and warpers instead of wizards for reasons of setting lore or business model or whatever, but that's never been the actual problem with D&D; the problem is who gets spell slots and who doesn't.
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Mar 16, 2023 22:00
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Serf posted:It would be better if schools of magic were less "I throw fireballs" vs "I... alter things" and more "I injected magic tree sap into my blood and now I am slowly becoming a tree with tree powers" vs "I'm a little freak with a gun" isn't that literally REIGN and Unknown Armies
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Mar 16, 2023 22:02
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Ferrinus posted:That is to say, you can restrict how much stuff a wizard can have ready at once instead of restricting what stuff they're allowed to pick from, and you'll have solved your balance problems. Now, you might want to have pyromancers and beguilers and warpers instead of wizards for reasons of setting lore or business model or whatever, but that's never been the actual problem with D&D; the problem is who gets spell slots and who doesn't. But then we just loop back to the issue that your wizard blows his wad and then he needs to take a nap or all he can do is one low-grade trick over and over, if even that.
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Mar 16, 2023 22:03
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PurpleXVI posted:But then we just loop back to the issue that your wizard blows his wad and then he needs to take a nap or all he can do is one low-grade trick over and over, if even that. This is a separate question of whether and what kind of cooldowns are appropriate to keep adventuring fun. Insofar as you can only ready a limited amount of stuff at once, it could be balanced perfectly fine even if there's enormous variety in what you can put in there. Like, if we don't like "per-encounter" or "per day" system at all and instead everyone has regenerating motes of essence like in Exalted, or an escalating-by-the-turn count of renewable mana sources like in MtG or Hearthstone, a wizard whose three attacks are "force blast", "cause fear", and "summon specter" isn't particularly stronger or weaker than a wizard with "force blast", "force cage", and "force armor" - especially if the fighter has her own three cool tricks that are similarly calibrated in terms of power and spammability.
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Mar 16, 2023 22:07
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I'm still fond of Magic of Incarnum
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Mar 16, 2023 22:08
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ZearothK posted:isn't that literally REIGN and Unknown Armies Not gonna lie, if I had a lot of time on my hands, an Unknown Armies fantasy hack based on looking at a standard D&D setting and figuring out plausible Clergy archetypes and adept paths for that world would be an extremely fun project
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Mar 16, 2023 22:38
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ZearothK posted:isn't that literally REIGN and Unknown Armies I backed REIGN 2e but haven't read it yet because it took way longer than expected to come out and I think I've seen some F&F posts about Unknown Armies, another book I own but haven't read.
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Mar 16, 2023 22:40
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Antivehicular posted:Not gonna lie, if I had a lot of time on my hands, an Unknown Armies fantasy hack based on looking at a standard D&D setting and figuring out plausible Clergy archetypes and adept paths for that world would be an extremely fun project
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Mar 16, 2023 23:27
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Thank you for the recs, I'll take a look at some of these.
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Mar 17, 2023 00:09
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mellonbread posted:They did this for 2e, it was called Ascension of the Magdalene. It was kind of bad because they tried to make it a dual-stat 3.5 module, instead of thinking more seriously about how to adapt the dungeon crawl formula to Unknown Armies. Yeah, I have that module, and I agree that it's not very good. I was thinking more of a full conversion sort of thing, where you take a stock D&D setting with stock D&D baggage, but redesign it assuming a basis of the Invisible Clergy and postmodern magick. (D&D-oid magic probably still exists in some form, or existed, at least -- "lovely wizard empire broke magic again, possibly in the last incarnation of the universe, and this time it really loving stuck" comes to mind.)
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Mar 17, 2023 00:19
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Ferrinus posted:an escalating-by-the-turn count of renewable mana sources like in MtG or Hearthstone Are there RPGs that do this, it sounds fun. The closest thing that comes to mind is the escalation die in 13th Age
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Mar 17, 2023 04:57
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Tarnop posted:Are there RPGs that do this, it sounds fun. The closest thing that comes to mind is the escalation die in 13th Age None that I know of, which feels like a missed opportunity. I think there's a way to build systems like that into a variety of RPGs, but for a lot of games you have to then be able to answer questions like "why doesn't everyone just play one land (or equivalent action) turn after turn at the start of every scene they're in just in case a fight breaks out". Obviously this isn't an impossible problem and turns really heavily on how the game structure itself but it's the first thing that occurs to me when I start thinking of it as, say, a Mage houserule.
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Mar 17, 2023 05:02
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Tarnop posted:Are there RPGs that do this, it sounds fun. The closest thing that comes to mind is the escalation die in 13th Age What I liked in hearthstone is that because your resources ramped up every turn you were less likely to get hit with mana drought and you can focus on putting cool cards in your deck instead of plain old planes. It puts a timer on certain things, and makes the strategy better. Not sure how to translate that resource management into a game a human might want to play instead of a ccg. This could be a cool design challenge if those are coming back in style!
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Mar 17, 2023 05:34
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One model that's not identical but is at least similar is the Sentinel Comics RPG. There's a sort of escalation mechanic that moves the table and the players individually through Green, Yellow, and Red Zones either as their individual health is knocked down or just as the environment of the fight becomes increasingly chaotic and unstable. Fights start at green and you have green abilities you can use, but when you get to yellow for any reason it changes one of the dice in your regular die pools and unlocks your yellow abilities, then the same for red. The abilities tend to get a little bigger in yellow and way bigger in red to account for how everyone's pulling out all the stops now.
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Mar 17, 2023 05:40
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I know its only tangentially related, but I'd love a game that almost played like a hybrid of a CCG and a TTRPG, where you're summoning creatures from your deck like an out of hand game of Yu-Gi-Oh.
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Mar 17, 2023 05:42
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theironjef posted:One model that's not identical but is at least similar is the Sentinel Comics RPG. There's a sort of escalation mechanic that moves the table and the players individually through Green, Yellow, and Red Zones either as their individual health is knocked down or just as the environment of the fight becomes increasingly chaotic and unstable. Fights start at green and you have green abilities you can use, but when you get to yellow for any reason it changes one of the dice in your regular die pools and unlocks your yellow abilities, then the same for red. The abilities tend to get a little bigger in yellow and way bigger in red to account for how everyone's pulling out all the stops now. That game gets so much right in terms of game feel for its genre in combat and flops everything else  ... and it's so close to be THE super game for me.
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Mar 17, 2023 05:45
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The Bee posted:I know its only tangentially related, but I'd love a game that almost played like a hybrid of a CCG and a TTRPG, where you're summoning creatures from your deck like an out of hand game of Yu-Gi-Oh.
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Mar 17, 2023 05:49
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Ominous Jazz posted:That game gets so much right in terms of game feel for its genre in combat and flops everything else I don't even know what everything else would even entail here. It doesn't have a noncombat model, so it can't have a bad one. Everything is a combat or at least an action scene. I suppose if you're really dying to roll Investigate a bunch of times or something it might not be great, but I find the lack of that stuff bracing. I can just RP those scenes. I did eventually house rule for a friend that just couldn't get his head around "This game doesn't do scenes that aren't action" by saying he could assemble a pool with any two qualities and his status if he needed to make some sort of deduction or persuasion or whatever during noncombat, and the rest of the players just RPd on through, which to me seems to be the intent.
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Mar 17, 2023 05:54
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Ferrinus posted:None that I know of, which feels like a missed opportunity. I think there's a way to build systems like that into a variety of RPGs, but for a lot of games you have to then be able to answer questions like "why doesn't everyone just play one land (or equivalent action) turn after turn at the start of every scene they're in just in case a fight breaks out".
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Mar 17, 2023 08:55
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Question: I'm looking for playtesters for a fantasy 30-Years-War GMT-style Hex-CDG for 2 players. Where can I find these elusive and strange beings that would be willing to brave the rules as written or the VASSAL module attached to it? Or am I just perfect right here, right now?
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Mar 17, 2023 10:17
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My Lovely Horse posted:If you start building up mana, you eventually have to cast a spell. Bring back mana burn.
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Mar 17, 2023 11:26
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Mr.Misfit posted:Question: I'm looking for playtesters for a fantasy 30-Years-War GMT-style Hex-CDG for 2 players. Where can I find these elusive and strange beings that would be willing to brave the rules as written or the VASSAL module attached to it? Or am I just perfect right here, right now? Try the wargames thread: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3564278
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Mar 17, 2023 13:14
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The Bee posted:I know its only tangentially related, but I'd love a game that almost played like a hybrid of a CCG and a TTRPG, where you're summoning creatures from your deck like an out of hand game of Yu-Gi-Oh.   
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Mar 17, 2023 20:33
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Abandon all classes forever.
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Mar 17, 2023 21:50
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Agreed, it's cooler to call them "jobs" like in a jrpg instead
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Mar 18, 2023 15:09
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Countblanc posted:Agreed, it's cooler to call them "jobs" like in a jrpg instead Genuinely more accurate too.
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Mar 18, 2023 15:52
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Countblanc posted:Agreed, it's cooler to call them "jobs" like in a jrpg instead
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Mar 18, 2023 16:21
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Final Fantasy 14 is the only Marxist MMO because it's about replacing Classes with Jobs.
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Mar 18, 2023 18:32
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With the talk of hybrid RPGs, is there any RPG (existing or in development) that uses online tools to allow simultaneous turns?
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Mar 18, 2023 20:21
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Countblanc posted:Agreed, it's cooler to call them "jobs" like in a jrpg instead But if being a Sorcerer is your Job, who's your boss and do you have a union?
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Mar 18, 2023 20:43
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PurpleXVI posted:But if being a Sorcerer is your Job, who's your boss and do you have a union? I just get a GPS location of something to fireball on the Srcrr app and no healthcare
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Mar 18, 2023 20:45
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PurpleXVI posted:But if being a Sorcerer is your Job, who's your boss and do you have a union? Sorry, can't dispel your polymorph, that's the abjuration guild's job.
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Mar 18, 2023 21:12
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PurpleXVI posted:But if being a Sorcerer is your Job, who's your boss and do you have a union? I loosely remember an interpretation of the mage's guild of an Elder Scrolls game being pretty much a union. Unseen University also comes to mind as explicitly said to exist mostly to keep wizards fed, comfortable, and finding other things to occupy their time with than throwing fireballs at everything in sight.
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Mar 19, 2023 07:14
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