|
Lemniscate Blue posted:Well, holy poo poo. Apparently he went uncredited for some reason, not that it isn't obvious just from looking at him. Something about "doing it for his kids"?
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2023 18:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 08:24 |
|
|
Oh also Moogie is played by Andrea Martin! I didn't know who she was when I watched it last. I can't remember exactly when I did my last DS9 rewatch, but it was on physical disks ordered through Netflix.
|
|
#
?
Mar 16, 2023 21:38
|
|
|
"didn't you ever play make believe as a kid" "I used to make believe that the Cardassians would stop killing Bajorans and go away" jesus christ nerys
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 00:36
|
|
|
CainFortea posted:At the end of the day Trek is really bad about having consistency with basically anything world building wise, so it's mostly all vibes based anyway. Yeah but there's not really anything (TNG pre-retcon-trill excepted) indicating that the host is killed off. You're arguing that this was a one-off counter-example to a standard that didn't exist.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 00:43
|
|
|
There are lots of times in DS9 when the fact that species are supposed to represent societal concepts results in some real bad racism. I'm just watching Ferengi Love Songs where Rom is learning all about Leeta's culture and Dax calls him "The least Ferengi Ferengi." Then when he looks sad she clarifies that it isn't a bad thing. Actually I think Dax does it a fair amount. She's definitely told Worf that he's not a good Klingon and that's okay. I wonder if some super anxious species dude has come up to Barclay at some point and been all "you've got your head on right, you're not great at being a human though" It's lovely wording because they are pretend aliens that are sometimes used as allegories for modern race relations but I wonder how it would land in the fictional universe. I was going to say that without the power imbalance between racial groups it's not quite as bad. If someone told me I was a bad white dude, that's at worse neutral and at best a compliment. There is a power balance issue though, because there's clearly a cultural hegemony thing going on with humans central.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 00:59
|
|
|
T.C. posted:Actually I think Dax does it a fair amount. She's definitely told Worf that he's not a good Klingon and that's okay. Ezri absolutely tells him that the Klingon Empire is old and rotting, that the obsession with honor and their traditions is stupid, and that he needs to stop fixating on being Klingon.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 01:06
|
|
|
Farmer Crack-rear end posted:J Michael Stracynzki just got super mad and he doesn't know why lol I've never actually seen any of Babylon 5, meanwhile my JMS hardluck case from the 90s (actually 80s, but it was the 90s when I saw it) is Captain Power and the Soldiers of the Future. That show deserved a second season because it went out with a loving BANG.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 01:08
|
|
|
A friend of mine back in elementary school had a super rich grandma and as a result he had literally the entire line of Captain Power toys and I was extremely jealous
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 01:45
|
|
|
T.C. posted:If someone told me I was a bad white dude, "Make sure to say we're bad dudes. I think that's something people said in these times." 
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 02:00
|
|
|
Timby posted:Ezri absolutely tells him that the Klingon Empire is old and rotting, that the obsession with honor and their traditions is stupid, and that he needs to stop fixating on being Klingon. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnVJP6C7Tj8&t=120s
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 02:06
|
|
|
T.C. posted:There are lots of times in DS9 when the fact that species are supposed to represent societal concepts results in some real bad racism. Personally, I've always seen Star Trek aliens as more allegorical of countries than of races -- to use the very clearest example, in the TOS/Movie era the Klingons are obviously playing the USSR to the Federation's USA -- but there are plenty of exceptions to that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 02:09
|
|
|
That's precisely the scene I was thinking of. I love the way Worf starts pouting when Ezri issues her opening salvo.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 02:19
|
|
|
Powered Descent posted:Personally, I've always seen Star Trek aliens as more allegorical of countries than of races -- to use the very clearest example, in the TOS/Movie era the Klingons are obviously playing the USSR to the Federation's USA -- but there are plenty of exceptions to that. they later on become allegories for political structures and cultural mores. i don't think you can easily find a parallel in modern society for TNG klingons, TNG+ romulans or DS9 cardassians, for example that's not to say that you can't find them at all, of course, but it sort of defies easy categorization i think. some of them are more explicit and can get kind of ugly though (and the writers/producers have said so, i.e. the kazon)
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 02:55
|
|
|
Timby posted:That's precisely the scene I was thinking of. I love the way Worf starts pouting when Ezri issues her opening salvo. It's also not really what you described, though. Ezri's point is more the hypocrisy of the Empire extolling honour and tradition while actually engaging in self-serving corruption. She doesn't really make a judgement on Klingon culture but on Klingon government
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 03:04
|
|
|
Gaz-L posted:It's also not really what you described, though. Ezri's point is more the hypocrisy of the Empire extolling honour and tradition while actually engaging in self-serving corruption. She doesn't really make a judgement on Klingon culture but on Klingon government The corruption is only part of it. She absolutely hits on this: quote:Ezri absolutely tells him that the Klingon Empire is old and rotting, that the obsession with honor and their traditions is stupid
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 03:25
|
|
|
I love Ezri so loving much. Holy poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 04:39
|
|
|
Ezri was worth it for that scene alone.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 05:39
|
|
|
MillennialVulcan posted:Ezri was worth it for that scene alone. "I'm the station's counsellor... and I just counselled my ex-husband into killing the leader of the Klingon Empire" is stone cold.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 12:29
|
|
|
That whole episode (Tacking Into The Wind) became my favorite on the latest rewatch. It also includes this all-time great scene, which echoes the same basic theme in other characters. The way everything comes to a head in this episode philosophically, before the literal battle, is pure gold and pays off so much of what they were doing for the whole series -- nay, franchise. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjd9RgRUQDY It's such a timely message, too. Perhaps alarmingly so.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 14:36
|
|
|
Biggs and Visitors' expressions are doing so much work in that scene, it's one of the best moments of the series. It's like Damar sees Kira for the first time, that immediate connection of what the Cardassians did to the Bajorans during the occupation, but that quick recognition that despite all of that, Kira is still here helping.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 15:43
|
|
|
Name a better three episode sequence than Way of the Warrior 1&2 into the visitor.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 16:09
|
|
|
T.C. posted:It's lovely wording because they are pretend aliens that are sometimes used as allegories for modern race relations but I wonder how it would land in the fictional universe. I was going to say that without the power imbalance between racial groups it's not quite as bad. If someone told me I was a bad white dude, that's at worse neutral and at best a compliment. There is a power balance issue though, because there's clearly a cultural hegemony thing going on with humans central. To be fair, the Ferengi and Klingons are powerful groups throughout the galaxy. It's not like anybody harps on a particular national stereotype for the much less powerful Bajorans. I think the way Star Trek treats cultures/races/species is a really mixed bag. I think for the most part, it's experimenting with the idea of different cultures with different ways that we just don't understand, but other times it's about different species having biological differences that mean that they physically can't maintain the same cultural practices (which I guess is plausible, but taking that perspective in the real world can go nasty fast). Klingons "naturally" have a lot more aggression and get big and strong and tough. The Founders don't respect beings that can't join the cuddle puddle. Cardassians supposedly very deeply have a need for authority (although by Picard's account, they changed radically within living memory and the turbo authoritarianism is a recent devlopment, so there's lots of room to question what cultural differences are actually from biology). Vulcans physically can't process emotions very well, except if they do figure out how to do it, they get Jesus powers. There's a lot of weird stuff. Which a lot of the intent of Star Trek is to explore weird stuff and weird ideas, but they have less time for that lately. The intent to reflect understanding multiple cultures is reflected in the cast of the original show, where Spock may be a bit of an outsider to the rest of the cast, but the human cast is very intentionally trying to demonstrate that all our modern day cultures have all managed to get along. I do think that more complex concepts about culture and race get much harder to deal with just because the franchise hasn't put in the footwork. The Federation is the only truly multicultural "state" in Star Trek, and you don't get the same kind of pragmatic multiculturalism of imperialism that you get in the real world from aggressively expanding empires (somehow conquest in Star Trek rarely leads to the question of subject peoples; you never see non-klingon klingon subjects). Patriotism and nationalism are synonymous. You don't really have issues of immigration be covered; there's some weird implication that immigrants all have some connection or loyalty to the place they originally came from.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 16:35
|
|
|
zoux posted:Name a better three episode sequence than Way of the Warrior 1&2 into the visitor. not a "WELL ACTUALLY" Best of Both Worlds 1 & 2, Family Behind the Lines, Favor the Bold, Sacrifice of Angels Personal appreciation: Treachery Faith and the Great River, Once More Unto the Breach, The Siege of AR-558
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 16:49
|
|
|
MillennialVulcan posted:Best of Both Worlds 1 & 2, Family I don't know about this. BOBW2 really, really doesn't stick the landing, outside of a few really good scenes.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 16:54
|
|
|
zoux posted:Name a better three episode sequence than Way of the Warrior 1&2 into the visitor. The Emissary, Peak Performance, Shades of Gray
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2023 17:23
|
|
|
I hate that my brain constantly tries to tell me that BOBW is awesome because it inevitably leads to disappointment every single time I hit the second part. I literally just typed this post and yet somehow I'm still thinking "I haven't watched BOBW in a while, I should watch it!"
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 02:13
|
|
|
Paradoxish posted:I hate that my brain constantly tries to tell me that BOBW is awesome because it inevitably leads to disappointment every single time I hit the second part. It really lets you know what you’re in for the second that Part 1 recap ends and then it’s just this interminably long buildup to nothing as their jury-rigged weapon just fizzles out.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 02:15
|
|
|
MillennialVulcan posted:Biggs and Visitors' expressions are doing so much work in that scene, it's one of the best moments of the series. It's like Damar sees Kira for the first time, that immediate connection of what the Cardassians did to the Bajorans during the occupation, but that quick recognition that despite all of that, Kira is still here helping. And on the flip side, Kira realising even as the words leave her mouth that it might gently caress up the whole deal, but she can't help but just drive the point home.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 02:21
|
|
|
Paradoxish posted:I hate that my brain constantly tries to tell me that BOBW is awesome because it inevitably leads to disappointment every single time I hit the second part. Big Mean Jerk posted:It really lets you know what you’re in for the second that Part 1 recap ends and then it’s just this interminably long buildup to nothing as their jury-rigged weapon just fizzles out. Hey now, BoBW Part 2 had some drat good parts. In particular, Captain Riker's conversation with Guinan was great, and their horrified, too-late arrival at Wolf 359 was chilling. And hey, we actually get a creative tactical use of saucer separation. True, Part 2 isn't quite as good as Part 1, but let's not go overboard in criticizing it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 02:25
|
|
|
BOBW suffers from the fact that they had to reset to the status quo. And while Family is amazing and probably justifies bringing Picard back all by itself, it's still interesting to imagine a world where they made the decision to cut Stewart loose and make Frakes the lead.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 02:36
|
|
|
I got to see the non-cliffhanger cut of BOBW in a theater back when they were doing that to promote the blu rays and it was pretty drat good
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 02:41
|
|
|
Powered Descent posted:Hey now, BoBW Part 2 had some drat good parts. In particular, Captain Riker's conversation with Guinan was great, and their horrified, too-late arrival at Wolf 359 was chilling. And hey, we actually get a creative tactical use of saucer separation. It’s dull, op. They immediately toss out all the good snowballing tension earned in the last act of Part 1 and it never really recovers. Yes, there are individual scenes that are really good, but the episode as a whole never really congeals and it never reaches the same highs as Part 1. It’s a disappointing and almost rushed conclusion. Thankfully Family exists to soften that blow.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 03:11
|
|
|
Yeah, you can't treat a TV two-parter as two separate episodes. BOBW is a movie split in half, and the back half is just not good enough. You've gotta actually keep the momentum from the first half and provide a satisfying conclusion and it just... doesn't, really. It certainly doesn't help that they slam all that momentum directly into a brick wall at the split, either.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 04:31
|
|
|
Honestly the only two parter TNG truly slam dunks is Chain of Command.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 04:35
|
|
|
Paradoxish posted:Yeah, you can't treat a TV two-parter as two separate episodes. BOBW is a movie split in half, and the back half is just not good enough. You've gotta actually keep the momentum from the first half and provide a satisfying conclusion and it just... doesn't, really. It certainly doesn't help that they slam all that momentum directly into a brick wall at the split, either. I think it hurts this (and to be fair, a lot of other television two-parters) that it's a cliffhanger between two seasons, where you can write whatever the gently caress you want to raise the stakes for the first part and in the second you have to fit everything back in the toybox for the rest of the season, but you're also doing this after you took a break and got all detached from everything that had you excited while writing that first part. Like people pointed out, a lot of what makes BoBW part 1 spark is genuinely not knowing if Stewart would be back in the fall, but when the fall came, they had to return him to main cast status and suddenly that affects the entire plotline.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 04:37
|
|
|
HD DAD posted:Honestly the only two parter TNG truly slam dunks is Chain of Command. Even that is wildly different between the two parts though. It wasn't even supposed to be a two-parter until they had budget trouble and Michael Piller came up with the torture play to fill out a second episode. It's a happy accident, not a "designed to be two parts" episode. For those you're looking at Birthright and Gambit, and I think they were fine but Gambit was definitely better.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 04:39
|
|
|
Birthright is worse though, since aside from getting Worf to the Romulan camp (which could easily be combined into the second episode), there’s nothing linking the two episodes! They could just as easily be two separate episodes without being a 2-parter.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 04:51
|
|
|
"gambit" is pretty fun for what it is yes, the story is pretty dumb and yes, the guest stars are hammy as hell, but richard lynch crushes it. robin curtis less so, but she's mostly fine too given the material
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 05:02
|
|
|
I actually have a soft spot for Time’s Arrow, because it’s the first two-parter I remember watching live. My child-mind was blown with the cold open with Data’s head. I also didn’t get the concept of a two-parter at the time so I was very upset when the episode ended. Lol
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 05:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 08:24 |
|
|
HD DAD posted:I actually have a soft spot for Time’s Arrow, because it’s the first two-parter I remember watching live. My child-mind was blown with the cold open with Data’s head. I didn't get the concept of seasons when Best of Both Worlds 1 aired, I wanted to know what they'd do so badly.
|
|
#
?
Mar 19, 2023 05:19
|
|
