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armpit_enjoyer posted:The problem with a minimum wage is that no matter how high you raise it, they're going to raise the prices of everything to match; who cares if you're earning $5000 a month if your cost of living is $4999? As opposed to now, when the cost of living is surging without wages rising to match?
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Mar 12, 2023 21:09
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armpit_enjoyer posted:The problem with a minimum wage is that no matter how high you raise it, they're going to raise the prices of everything to match; who cares if you're earning $5000 a month if your cost of living is $4999? That's why I say we should lower the minimum wage so the prices go down. That's how it works.
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Mar 12, 2023 21:13
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ben shapino posted:That's why I say we should lower the minimum wage so the prices go down. That's how it works. u/p combo delight
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Mar 12, 2023 21:13
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If we lower the minimum wage to zero then the prices of everything goes to zero. Boom, communist utopia.
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Mar 13, 2023 15:04
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armpit_enjoyer posted:The problem with a minimum wage is that no matter how high you raise it, they're going to raise the prices of everything to match; who cares if you're earning $5000 a month if your cost of living is $4999? Do you actually believe this?
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Mar 13, 2023 16:18
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I didn’t read that as “higher minimum wage necessarily causes prices to rise” but “if capital discovers that people have more money, they will increase prices to take advantage of it”. I find the latter plausible, but it’s not a reason to keep an inhumane minimum wage in place.
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Mar 13, 2023 16:22
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Eat all billionaires let their flesh trickle down to the masses
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Mar 13, 2023 16:25
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Subjunctive posted:I didn’t read that as “higher minimum wage necessarily causes prices to rise” but “if capital discovers that people have more money, they will increase prices to take advantage of it”. I find the latter plausible, but it’s not a reason to keep an inhumane minimum wage in place. If they increase the prices too quickly, middle class people might stop buying things, so that's bad.
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Mar 13, 2023 16:31
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How is he even arguing he "needs" any money at this point. He lost his civil suit, he should have every cent garnished from any earnings he makes until it's paid off. Maybe a portion of it can go to any under 18 kids and wife for welfare, but for himself he should be on the streets or living with whatever friends will take him. This is a problem he created, not the governments.
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Mar 13, 2023 16:35
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Philthy posted:How is he even arguing he "needs" any money at this point. He lost his civil suit, he should have every cent garnished from any earnings he makes until it's paid off. Maybe a portion of it can go to any under 18 kids and wife for welfare, but for himself he should be on the streets or living with whatever friends will take him. This is a problem he created, not the governments. Have you not seen the insane amount of deference that rich people receive vs poor people whenever the law gets involved?
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Mar 13, 2023 16:43
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When you lose a civil judgment the goal isn't to make you a pauper and there's often a max limit to how much your wages and such can be garnished. Like, it works the opposite way too, if you're being sued for a consumer debt and you make like $25k a year, many jurisdictions won't take more than 10% of your gross wages. For someone that poor, that's pretty devastating because every single dollar counts, but in principle these actions are not out to break people. Jones should be allotted only enough take home money to fund a used Honda Civic for his commute and a one-bedroom apartment, but the court isn't going to throw him on the street.
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Mar 13, 2023 16:50
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For those not paying attention to the what's going on in Alex's legal world, he's encountering the same kind of problems in bankruptcy court that he did in civil court; he's not turning over discovery. Filing for bankruptcy involves, among other things, giving the court and the creditors an accurate assessment of the assets in question. Shocking no one, when the bankruptcy court has asked basic questions like "you own this company, how much is it worth", they get answers like "I don't know". The latest showdown was a few days ago, documented by Morgan Stringer https://twitter.com/MoString/status/1633546704220815362 tl;dr it's not looking good. His next court date is on the 30th. After that, assuming he hasn't turn over accurate information about his finances (I think this is a safe assumption) then things like "dismissing the bankruptcy and charging Alex with fraud" are on the table
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Mar 13, 2023 17:13
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There are a lot of complicating factors here. There's usually a cap on how much your wages can be garnished for bankruptcy or civil suits, and at least in Canada that amount is typically something like 50% above a certain "untouchable" amount (varies based on factors like marital status and number of dependents), but there are a lot of variables at play that I think can potentially raise this percentage, including the egregiousness of his actions that got him sued in the first place (there are different "degrees" of civil suits in this respect, like two civil suits for the same amount can be handled differently depending on if one of them was at least plausibly the result of an honest mistake that the sued party appears to be showing some degree of contrition and corrective action for, and one where it's because the sued party was acting maliciously and told the court to go gently caress itself). I also think there's the rub that the thing that can hurt Alex Jones isn't so much his wages being garnished, but his ability to earn wages at all, since the courts know he's got a whole shell game with Free Speech Systems LLC and other entities and those can effectively be shut down. Alex and his lawyers are pretty much throwing poo poo at the wall so Alex can squirrel away some amount of money to continue living large and not have to shut his show down. The courts are largely wise to these sorts of shenanigans, but there are likely some "absolute" laws at play that guarantees a certain amount of Alex's earnings are untouchable and that amount might be more than people would consider fair. Depending on the laws at play, it's not impossible for a situation where Alex goes from earning $1 million a year to $500k a year, for example, and for that to be effectively unincreasable due to legal protections to debtors. But I think a bigger situation is the fact that the earnings of Free Speech Systems LLC itself can be hamstrung harder (companies that go bankrupt can usually be hit harder) and that would cause Alex's earnings to drop much more sharply. And, of course, if he tries to pull some illegal asset-hiding poo poo he could wind up in prison, so there's that. As alluded to above, a company not knowing what it's worth is a pretty massive red flag and not one that passes muster in a bankruptcy court. univbee fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 17:18
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univbee posted:And, of course, if he tries to pull some illegal asset-hiding poo poo he could wind up in prison, so there's that. That's what I'm betting on. He's going to be caught red-handed in some idiot scheme to hide his money and end up in prison that way.
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Mar 13, 2023 18:29
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kw0134 posted:When you lose a civil judgment the goal isn't to make you a pauper and there's often a max limit to how much your wages and such can be garnished. Is intent not part of the process? Like, if it's a medical bill and the hospital wants it's money, that wasn't something the person could have any control over. So, the garnish would allow leeway for the person to still be able to live while some of his wages are taken to pay it off, and likely, never to be paid off before they die. With people like Alex, they maliciously went after these peoples dead children, spewed lies knowingly, and racked up many improper motions within the court case itself. Maliciousness should be able to force him to live off the streets broke as poo poo and living out of a cardboard box.
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Mar 13, 2023 19:09
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Only insofar as certain debts can't be discharged. If this was a normal bankruptcy with things like CC debt, he'd get a discharge and be free and clear. Intentional torts are not dischargable (11 USC §523(a)(6)) so the fact he intentionally caused the harm means he's still on the hook for it even if he goes through the entire bankruptcy process. Beyond that, you want to basically treat the civil procedure as a criminal proceeding and that's not how that works.
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Mar 13, 2023 19:16
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armpit_enjoyer posted:The problem with a minimum wage is that no matter how high you raise it, they're going to raise the prices of everything to match; who cares if you're earning $5000 a month if your cost of living is $4999? shut up
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Mar 13, 2023 19:17
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The screwy part of it being a % of income is that the lies about sandy hook were being told because he was making money off of it. So if slandering someone increases your income at time of the court decision by more than double, you still made a net profit after the court garnished half your wages? That doesn’t sound like how it should work, but it’s not like there’s a lack of corporate bad actors netting massive profits for violations then coming out ahead after paying a slap on the wrist fine for it either.
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Mar 13, 2023 19:26
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yook posted:The screwy part of it being a % of income is that the lies about sandy hook were being told because he was making money off of it. No, because slandering someone is probably not doubling your base salary, and because creditors can seize your assets in addition to cash, and because the plaintiff can raise evidence that you slandered them to make money and have those profits factored into the size of the verdict, and because it's not a flat percentage of income, and because the court isn't going to increase his salary back to $500k (the amount he was paying himself before the bankruptcy) Seriously, folks. The court isn't going to literally render Jones homeless, but he's not going to live a life of luxury now that he owes roughly a billion dollars and has pissed off the bankruptcy judge.
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Mar 13, 2023 19:35
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Main Paineframe posted:No, because slandering someone is probably not doubling your base salary, and because creditors can seize your assets in addition to cash, and because the plaintiff can raise evidence that you slandered them to make money and have those profits factored into the size of the verdict, and because it's not a flat percentage of income, and because the court isn't going to increase his salary back to $500k (the amount he was paying himself before the bankruptcy) To be fair it's not an entirely irrational approach to have that as the default outcome expectation in this country. It is the default outcome for the wealthy in this country. Jones is just such a god awfully stupid belligerent rear end in a top hat he's not letting himself have the normal protections afforded to that class.
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Mar 13, 2023 19:39
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bird food bathtub posted:To be fair it's not an entirely irrational approach to have that as the default outcome expectation in this country. It is the default outcome for the wealthy in this country. Jones is just such a god awfully stupid belligerent rear end in a top hat he's not letting himself have the normal protections afforded to that class. Yeah, there are a lot of ways that Alex could have made things easier and gotten a relative slap on the wrist, but he just kept insisting on making things worse, either because he thought he knew better, because he thought he deserved better, or because he thought he was untouchable. Edit: and I mean relative when compared to what actually happened. mojo1701a fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Mar 13, 2023 |
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Mar 13, 2023 19:42
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No, because you're still on the hook for the whole sum. There's no realistic chance of him paying off the full billion and half (or so) (so far) so the general goal would be to seize everything the court can that isn't protected by statute and work out a payment plan for the rest. Note too that judgments also carry interest if you can't pay the whole thing up front, so the interest alone will bankrupt him multiple times. The real questions are what is a protected asset under bankruptcy, and how much the court gets to take away from him in the future. Without bankruptcy it'd be reduced to simply the max levy allowable by law that a court can order be seized in satisfaction of the judgment, and often that's enough to not leaving him living in a cardboard box eating the cat food someone left out for the feral colony down the street. There's a floor but it's often pretty low.
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Mar 13, 2023 19:46
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Alex Jones should be required to move into Lowtax's last rental house and live off a stipend that's only good enough to let him keep his pantry stocked from Dollar General, until such a point that he personally earns & pays off the verdict money.
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Mar 13, 2023 20:15
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5er posted:Alex Jones should be required to move into Lowtax's last rental house and live off a stipend that's only good enough to let him keep his pantry stocked from Dollar General, until such a point that he personally earns & pays off the verdict money. Think of how much chili he could buy!
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Mar 13, 2023 22:10
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Blue Moonlight posted:Think of how much chili he could buy! Such good chili, he'd forget he ever lost money!
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Mar 13, 2023 22:24
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mojo1701a posted:Such good chili, he'd forget he ever lost money! “And that’s how I ended up destitute in a back alley, can of dollar store chili in hand, realizing I’d hit rock bottom your honor…. …anyway it’s a shame the government pretended to kill all those kids”
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Mar 14, 2023 01:57
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Philthy posted:Is intent not part of the process? Like, if it's a medical bill and the hospital wants it's money, that wasn't something the person could have any control over. So, the garnish would allow leeway for the person to still be able to live while some of his wages are taken to pay it off, and likely, never to be paid off before they die. With people like Alex, they maliciously went after these peoples dead children, spewed lies knowingly, and racked up many improper motions within the court case itself. Maliciousness should be able to force him to live off the streets broke as poo poo and living out of a cardboard box. Unlike the criminal justice system the point isn't to ruin them. The point of a bankruptcy is to make the creditors as whole as possible while allowing the bankrupt person to continue to exist in society and eventually start over. If you take home 0% of your wages there is no incentive to keep going to work, and then the plaintiffs get nothing. If your wages are so low that you can't afford a place to live and work clothes and whatnot you will become unemployable and then the plaintiffs get nothing.
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Mar 14, 2023 02:18
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ben shapino posted:That's why I say we should lower the minimum wage so the prices go down. That's how it works. Lol
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Mar 14, 2023 02:45
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Is there anything new in the recent article over the last couple days about Jones trying to squirrel money away?
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Mar 20, 2023 13:39
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This was news to me:quote:Earlier this month, Mr. Jones offered to pay the families and his other creditors a total of $43 million over five years as part of a bankruptcy plan, which lawyers for the families immediately dismissed as laughable and riddled with financial holes. The judge ordered Mr. Jones to fill in the gaps in his financial disclosures by the end of the month. And this is just funny: quote:Last month, Mr. Jones’s lawyers submitted a statement of his personal financial affairs prefaced by five pages of disclaimers saying that Mr. Jones did not fully remember where he holds bank accounts, how many trusts he had set up over the past decade and the whereabouts of his 2022 W-2 form documenting his wages. He has not filed a federal income tax return since 2020. If you’re already familiar with his corporate obfuscations and weird financial stuff then the rest of the article is retreading things you may already know.
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Mar 20, 2023 13:49
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Of course he hasn't paid his taxes. But will there be anything left after this for the irs to go after him for?
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Mar 20, 2023 13:52
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Probably not a huge amount, but it's another point for the "this man cannot be trusted to properly look after a single penny of his money" camp.
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Mar 20, 2023 13:55
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loving around with the IRS means even more liens, and unlike other civil judgments or judgment-like attachments the Fed gov't doesn't gently caress around when it wants its money.
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Mar 20, 2023 14:32
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Pirate Radar posted:Last month, Mr. Jones’s lawyers submitted a statement of his personal financial affairs prefaced by five pages of disclaimers saying that Mr. Jones did not fully remember where he holds bank accounts, how many trusts he had set up over the past decade and the whereabouts of his 2022 W-2 form documenting his wages. He has not filed a federal income tax return since 2020. lol yeah he's turbofucked if the IRS gets involved, none of this comes remotely close to being a valid excuse and the only way it becomes their problem to untangle is in a way where Alex is behind bars.
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Mar 20, 2023 14:36
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Ate a big bowl of chili and forgot, uh, where all the money I owe you is
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Mar 20, 2023 14:45
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Pirate Radar posted:Ate a big bowl of chili and forgot, uh, where all the money I owe you is Good news! We have a secure, guarded room to help you chili detox, and where you can spend as much time as you need remembering. Also here's an orange outfit, the colors help you remember too.
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Mar 20, 2023 16:03
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kw0134 posted:loving around with the IRS means even more liens, and unlike other civil judgments or judgment-like attachments the Fed gov't doesn't gently caress around when it wants its money. If he ends up in an orange jumpsuit because the IRS to audited him because of this bankruptcy , I might become the first person to laugh themselves to death.
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Mar 20, 2023 22:13
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I would like to live in a universe where Alex Jones is actually sent to jail, just like any of us would be if we acted that way in court.
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Mar 20, 2023 23:27
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In a civil case it's very, very rare to go to jail for stuff like perjury, and criminal contempt is rarely invoked in general. Most of us wouldn't immediately lose the case while we're actively litigating it because we're that much of an rear end in a top hat, but Jones managed to do it twice.
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Mar 21, 2023 00:52
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kw0134 posted:In a civil case it's very, very rare to go to jail for stuff like perjury, and criminal contempt is rarely invoked in general. Most of us wouldn't immediately lose the case while we're actively litigating it because we're that much of an rear end in a top hat, but Jones managed to do it twice. Just out of curiosity, what's the minimum someone could do during a civil case that would get them tossed in the hoosegow? They obviously would arrest you if you did something that's a no-poo poo dangerous crime in the courthouse, but there must be something besides that. No reason, I'm just vaguely curious.
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Mar 21, 2023 03:06
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