|
mobby_6kl posted:I don't think it makes much sense to compare direct costs, even adjusted to inflation. Some things are more expensive, there's assigning dollar value to depreciated things that were pulled from the scrap heap, etc. Look at volumes. China provided 30 modernish fighter jets in a year. Soviets certainly delivered newer Mig-21s though they're not in this report. For the later sixties during the more intense conflict, scale up the Soviet tanks by 8 (675/85m) and it's 120 for a war that wasn't very tank-battle heavy, IIRC, ~350 artillery, ~70 helicopters, 3000 trucks, etc. Also note how this is fairly recent gear and not WW1 surplus. I agree with you that I wish that NATO and friends were doing more, but I question the assertion that the response has been all that half-assed or insufficient. Comparing absolute numbers misses the mark. Mid-cold war military gear was produced and available in huge numbers. Post-cold war drawdowns and the sheer cost of modern systems means there just aren't that many weapons systems available, and producing them is much more difficult. PRC contributed roughly 0.7% of total J-6 production in 1974. That would equate to 25 Leo 2s - the EU has already exceeded that mark. The assertion that China and the Soviet Union in the Vietnam War are examples of good/effective support in contrast to current NATO support for Ukraine isn't accurate. NATO is doing almost exactly what the Soviet Union did in the Vietnam War - delivery of a small number of relatively high end systems, extensive training and advisory support on those systems, plus ammunition and logistics sustainment, to enable their ally to fight and win a protracted war against an enemy with a theoretically overwhelming quantitative and qualitative advantage. I'm not convinced it's going to work, exactly, but "NATO is loving this up, they should do [what they are already doing]" is a weird argument.
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 13:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 13:38 |
|
|
An alleged terrorist with a Russian passport was killed in Hrodna, Belarus. As Belarusian officials claim, he was plotting bombings of train stations and political assassinations. Here's the official story https://eng.belta.by/president/view/lukashenko-shares-details-of-operation-to-eliminate-terrorist-in-grodno-157459-2023/ quote:“The special services did a great job. An arsenal of weapons and explosives was seized. These weapons were intended for high-profile terrorist attacks against individuals and government officials,” the head of state said. “What I want to praise them specifically for is that in such a difficult situation when the shootout was taking place within a limited space and when the terrorists used grenades and firearms (automatic), not a single member of Group A involved in detaining this person was killed. Thus, they learned the lessons from the tragedy that happened in Minsk. It was a good operation, good job. As I often say, people who risk their lives should always be acknowledged and supported,” the president said. What's interesting is that yesterday KGB's press release mentioned that the terrorist was a foreigner, and many pro-Lukashenko experts commented on the news with the assumption that he was from Poland. Then it turns out he had a Russian passport, but KGB say that the passport is fake, which is weird that it took them so long to verify. Coincidentally, the person allegedly responsible for the A50 attack in Machulishchy also had a Russian passport.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 14:20
|
|
|
What’s the Minsk tragedy they’re referring to here?
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 14:27
|
|
|
Mokotow posted:What’s the Minsk tragedy they’re referring to here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Minsk_apartment_shooting ?
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 14:37
|
|
|
Mokotow posted:What’s the Minsk tragedy they’re referring to here? Back in September of 2021, there was a raid on a flat of a Minsk IT specialist suspected in 'extremist activities' (i.e., participated in peaceful protests) who happened to own a hunting rifle. The police didn't follow the protocol, they were in plain clothes and never produced any identification, so the flat owner reasoned he was in his right to shoot whomever was breaking into his flat with weapons. One person from the raid team died, and the man was also killed on the spot. https://www.voiceofbelarus.org/belarus-news/during-a-raid-in-an-apartment-block-kgb-officers-shot-dead-a-minsk-resident/ E: Didn't expect there to be a Wikipedia article about it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 14:38
|
|
|
https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/21/politics/us-abram-tanks-accelerate-ukraine/index.html M1-A2s are going to take too long, so the US is going to send M1-A1s instead. That way they can get them there by this fall. 31 in total, enough for a Ukrainian tank battalion.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 16:01
|
|
|
Paladinus posted:An alleged terrorist with a Russian passport was killed in Hrodna, Belarus. As Belarusian officials claim, he was plotting bombings of train stations and political assassinations. What are the chances we'll find that passport in the list of
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 16:05
|
|
|
Deteriorata posted:https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/21/politics/us-abram-tanks-accelerate-ukraine/index.html This fall? It's already technically spring, this is gonna take another 6 months?
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 16:13
|
|
|
cr0y posted:This fall? It's already technically spring, this is gonna take another 6 months? They weren't expected until the end of the year, so this is an improvement to the situation with Abrams tanks specifially.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 16:18
|
|
|
Deteriorata posted:https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/21/politics/us-abram-tanks-accelerate-ukraine/index.html At least you can fire the .50 cal from closed hatch. I'll be honest: I never liked having the "John Wayne" the .50. It was fun, but it was more fun to hit the target in the first 3 rounds. Closed hatch or at least elevated hatch should probably be the default for armored vehicles within a few km of the forward line of troops, given the ongoing threat of small drones dropping anti-armor grenades.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 16:24
|
|
|
Ynglaur posted:Closed hatch or at least elevated hatch should probably be the default for armored vehicles within a few km of the forward line of troops, given the ongoing threat of small drones dropping anti-armor grenades. Nothing that installing a cope cage wouldn't fix. They were just ahead of time!
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 16:28
|
|
|
Fragrag posted:What are the chances we'll find that passport in the list of As in Russia planned to do something in Belarus without Lukashenko knowing? Unlikely. I guess he could have been a defector working for SBU. Or he was literally some random Russian guy. The name is known, but journalists so far didn't identify his social media or find his relatives, so can be anything.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 16:29
|
|
|
It's also probable that Ukrainian intelligence has a huge number of assets with Russian passports.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 16:36
|
|
|
Deteriorata posted:https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/21/politics/us-abram-tanks-accelerate-ukraine/index.html What kind of red tape did they cook up for themselves I wonder. There's no way I buy the training excuse, so it must be some top secret stuff that is too well integrated that they have to rip out for export.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 16:38
|
|
|
WarpedLichen posted:What kind of red tape did they cook up for themselves I wonder. There's no way I buy the training excuse, so it must be some top secret stuff that is too well integrated that they have to rip out for export. Yea, I’m guessing they’re downgrading some A2s to A1s rather than building A1s from scratch.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 16:40
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I agree with you that I wish that NATO and friends were doing more, but I question the assertion that the response has been all that half-assed or insufficient. Comparing absolute numbers misses the mark. Mid-cold war military gear was produced and available in huge numbers. Post-cold war drawdowns and the sheer cost of modern systems means there just aren't that many weapons systems available, and producing them is much more difficult. PRC contributed roughly 0.7% of total J-6 production in 1974. That would equate to 25 Leo 2s - the EU has already exceeded that mark.  I tried to clarify my actual concern before, basically it seems like a lack of motivation, will or coherent victory plan that causes things to take way too long for no reason and not go far enough. Specific example: For a year, Western tanks were a no-go. So instead of starting to work on procuring something, nothing happened until this January. Then suddenly it became possible, but since no procurement and training had been done, they now started to refurbish and train crews. And now Ukraine will have to field and maintain Leo1, Leo2, Challenger, and M1s (well next year probably)., in addition to several existing Soviet types. And since none of it arrived in numbers yet, it probably won't be available in time for any upcoming operations. So, what happened there? Wasn't it an obvious next step after dumping old Warsaw Pact stock? We now have the same situation with aircraft, where it's a "no-go", until later this year when I'm guessing suddenly it will become feasible, and from that point would take 1-2 years to actually get anything going. And same again long-range strike capability. Would be very helpful to take out that bridge just about now wouldn't it? E: lol here we go! I had this post open I didn't even see this: Deteriorata posted:https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/21/politics/us-abram-tanks-accelerate-ukraine/index.html mobby_6kl fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Mar 21, 2023 |
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 16:42
|
|
|
Icon Of Sin posted:Yea, I’m guessing they’re downgrading some A2s to A1s rather than building A1s from scratch. Unlikely, given that A1s haven't been manufactured in decades. I think it's more likely they're taking M1A1 hulls from storage and refurbishing the engines. I can't remember if you can swap A1 and A2 engines or what the major differences are. The latter has an auxiliary power unit, but if I remember it can be detached from the engine.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 16:49
|
|
|
At least for Ukrainian infantry, the small drones are practically disposable since they usually only last half a day of operations. So of course Australia gave them actual disposible drones made of waxed cardboard. https://twitter.com/clashreport/status/1638097090906578944
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 17:19
|
|
|
golden bubble posted:At least for Ukrainian infantry, the small drones are practically disposable since they usually only last half a day of operations. So of course Australia gave them actual disposible drones made of waxed cardboard. Nice, these are probably bio-degradable too!
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 17:22
|
|
|
mobby_6kl posted:The cold-war numbers would be more in line with russia's gear, wouldn't they? Unless a single Leo2 is really better than 10 T-62s or whatever they're fielding right now, it's going to be very tough. And "modern, high-end gear" would be F-22s or at least Super Hornets, as they're over 20 years old, no? I dunno. Soviets also had boots on the ground. I thought this does show a difference in commitment but it's not exactly a 1:1 situation so I'd rather not get bogged down in arguing about how many T-32s an M1A2 could take out The Leo 2 and the M1 are modern, high end gear. Brads and Strikers and CV90s are modern, high end gear. The radar systems, missiles, and artillery systems provided are modern, high end gear. The munitions are modern, high end gear. The Ukrainians are getting a hell of a lot of the good stuff, they're just not getting everything. There definitely isn't a coherent plan for NATO or whomever to win the war, because that's not up to NATO. It's up to the people fighting; that's the Ukranians. The best that NATO can do is try to provide the support that Ukraine needs to execute their plan to win the war. There's an internal calculus for everyone providing arms, since EU militaries are cut to the bone: how much does providing stuff to Ukraine degrade your own country's ability to defend itself? For old warpac gear that's an easy answer: you weren't using that poo poo anyway. But there's a lot more to the decision to get 50% of your modern MBTs chewed up in Donbas - what if the Russians win and you suddenly find yourself short? The USSR wasn't about to gut the TOE of 1st Guards Tank Army to supply the PAVN, but that's not far from what is being expected of EU militaries today. I think that's a big driver of slow decision making - plus the fact that you have multiple complex bureaucratic entities trying to expand complex production chains.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 17:29
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:The Leo 2 and the M1 are modern, high end gear. Brads and Strikers and CV90s are modern, high end gear. The radar systems, missiles, and artillery systems provided are modern, high end gear. The munitions are modern, high end gear. The Ukrainians are getting a hell of a lot of the good stuff, they're just not getting everything. What worries me here is that Russia is killing an entire generation of professionals and young people mobilized in Ukraine's armed forces while simultaneously destroying the country and rendering the energy resources Ukraine has that give it a competitive edge in a hypothetical EU Ukraine future useless. I'm not even sure the purpose of this war is to seize territory anymore so much as it is to kill/displace so many Ukrainians that as a nation it cannot hold its own militarily ever again while being economically useless to the west and thus an impoverished ruin of a state that nobody wants anything to do with anymore. That might be what Putin's ultimate goal is. Ukraine can't compete with Russia on a numerical basis so they need force multipliers to win. All of those force multipliers are being dripped in at insufficient quantities with questionable training because it takes years to gear up to a level where they can be a threat. I do wonder if Ukrainian leadership has a plan beyond "Hold out until Russia quits". Not to mention the entire west has built their force multipliers around air power and long range cruise missiles. None of these things are currently permitted for export to Ukraine in a way that wouldn't trigger fears of the *escalation* boogeyman. Also even if they did export it, where are they going to hold all the airfields and support facilities for stuff like F-16s? The Russians can spend less money blowing up Ukrainian infrastructure and airfields than Ukraine has money defending against it. Even if they had a ton of patriot batteries, the very missiles themselves are prohibitively expensive to use against the kinda stuff that is slipping through Ukraine's air defense network. It makes no sense to use these weapons this way. The west never had to worry about these things because they'd have used their other weapons to strike deep into Russian territory to take out the facilities during a conflict like this in the first place. For Ukraine that's not an option so they're fighting with their hands tied behind their backs. Even if its a foregone conclusion that Russia loses this conflict or gives up eventually, what we're forgetting is Ukraine is still losing because when all of this is over Russian cities, economic capacity, infrastructure and citizenry will still exist and be in some kind of position to do work to become economically powerful again at a distant time in the future. What is Ukraine supposed to do when their entire country is destroyed and the prime generation responsible for its future economic advantages in sectors like tech, manufacturing and energy is a physical or psychological casualty of this war? Ukraine's most valuable resource is its people, its oil and gas reserves and its competitive advantage in grain exports. All of that is being killed/destroyed or disabled by the Russians so they can't leverage it in future economic deals with Europe and North America. Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Mar 21, 2023 |
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 17:46
|
|
|
I think Russia is demonstrating that it absolutely wishes to annihilate the Ukrainian nation, and not merely capture its territory.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 17:52
|
|
|
mobby_6kl posted:As I wrote above, my immediate concern was about how the rhetoric translates into actual urgency of action, but this is probably the root cause of that. If the population that matters doesn't really care, neither will the governments. Inflation, costs of living, etc, will easily overshadow thousands dying and being displaced over there, let alone abstract concepts like sovereignty. The French are mad about the retirement reforms, not so much that Putin is doing ethnic cleansing. I know I'm the resident ridiculous EU critic in Dungeons and Debate, but I'm not sure this is how it would play out. I don't know how it goes in big countries like France who theoretically could wage a war of aggression, but it feels like the voting populace doesn't really factor foreign policy into their voting decisions that much. Unless it's for explicit protest vote type stuff, like the various neo-nazi parties all over Europe (whoo boy). But while the EU doesn't always have a unified view on foreign policy, all the technocrats in central Europe probably understand that Putin's Russia is a problem, and the Ukraine war support from the rest of Europe is kind of a foreign policy essential feature right now. So in my view, the chain of logic kind of goes in reverse of what you suggest; even if the voting populace becomes (or already is) apathetic to the war, all the political parties can still just focus on pension reform or whatever domestic stuff in their election propaganda, while the support for Ukraine can just kind of be left to the back-ground as a thing that will happen either way. I'm sure there will be populists who will say that it's awful that money is spent on "those people over there", but I'm skeptical that this'd transform into the EU / Europe changing course unless, as you say, the chuds get into power. I don't think most European election systems are as fragile as the US, where a single Trump can just (try to) make sweeping changes.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 17:56
|
|
|
mobby_6kl posted:Nice, these are probably bio-degradable too! Ah yes, finally we're sorting out the ESG stuff for the war!!
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 17:58
|
|
|
Paladinus posted:As in Russia planned to do something in Belarus without Lukashenko knowing? Unlikely. I guess he could have been a defector working for SBU. Or he was literally some random Russian guy. The name is known, but journalists so far didn't identify his social media or find his relatives, so can be anything. BYPOL now claim that the whole thing was staged. Based on the name and leaked Belarusian KGB documents, they say the only truth is that the passport is fake and it belongs to a KGB agent with a similar name and date of birth. Apparently, it's supposed to be a warning to the opposition ahead of the March 25 celebrations of Freedom Day. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 17:59
|
|
|
Ynglaur posted:I think Russia is demonstrating that it absolutely wishes to annihilate the Ukrainian nation, and not merely capture its territory. Right so we're all sitting here fat dumb and happy watching TVs and Maps and seeing Russia take massive losses taking inches of territory and breathing a sigh of relief thinking great, it means Russia is incompetent as a state and can no longer realistically seize all of Ukraine. Meanwhile every day, Ukraine is losing a manufacturing engineer in a trench somewhere, an oil and gas technician, a poet, an artist or a software developer who could've come up with some next gen app. Its losing its schools, its industrial equipment and even its children. This is the real tragedy we're all ignoring. We see stable front lines, but we also have casualty figures that are a Ukrainian government secret nobody except maybe Biden, Blinken, Lloyd Austin and some Pentagon officials know about. I'm not saying Ukraine is losing or Russia is winning. But if the goal is to demilitarize Ukraine, destroy its national identity and make it a toothless buffer state between Russia and Europe, they may well have already succeeded at this through attrition alone, especially since Russian factories out in the Urals somewhere can keep churning out weapons that can still do serious damage even if they aren't as fancy as a HIMARS or M1 Abrams.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 18:02
|
|
|
Kraftwerk posted:What worries me here is that Russia is killing an entire generation of professionals and young people mobilized in Ukraine's armed forces while simultaneously destroying the country and rendering the energy resources Ukraine has that give it a competitive edge in a hypothetical EU Ukraine future useless. I'm not even sure the purpose of this war is to seize territory anymore so much as it is to kill/displace so many Ukrainians that as a nation it cannot hold its own militarily ever again while being economically useless to the west and thus an impoverished ruin of a state that nobody wants anything to do with anymore. That might be what Putin's ultimate goal is. Wars are demographically devastating but we're still not at France/Germany in the 1920s or Soviet Union in the 1950s and none of those were rendered useless. Definitely not an optimal set of outcomes, though!
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 18:05
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Wars are demographically devastating but we're still not at France/Germany in the 1920s or Soviet Union in the 1950s and none of those were rendered useless. Definitely not an optimal set of outcomes, though! Median age and family size were very different then. Ukraine was already aging fast and this war is turning a lot of young people into refugees or corpses...
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 18:14
|
|
|
Kraftwerk posted:What worries me here is that Russia is killing an entire generation of professionals and young people mobilized in Ukraine's armed forces while simultaneously destroying the country and rendering the energy resources Ukraine has that give it a competitive edge in a hypothetical EU Ukraine future useless. I'm not even sure the purpose of this war is to seize territory anymore so much as it is to kill/displace so many Ukrainians that as a nation it cannot hold its own militarily ever again while being economically useless to the west and thus an impoverished ruin of a state that nobody wants anything to do with anymore. That might be what Putin's ultimate goal is. Kraftwerk posted:Right so we're all sitting here fat dumb and happy watching TVs and Maps and seeing Russia take massive losses taking inches of territory and breathing a sigh of relief thinking great, it means Russia is incompetent as a state and can no longer realistically seize all of Ukraine. I'm tired seeing you take your anxiety out on this thread by making GBS threads it up with rambling, borderline incoherent screeds of no practical value. I'll not be issuing any further warnings. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Mar 21, 2023 |
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 18:24
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:The Leo 2 and the M1 are modern, high end gear. Brads and Strikers and CV90s are modern, high end gear. The radar systems, missiles, and artillery systems provided are modern, high end gear. The munitions are modern, high end gear. The Ukrainians are getting a hell of a lot of the good stuff, they're just not getting everything.  Russia should really be getting the Desert Storm treatment, but isn't because nooookes. So Ukraine is doing the fighting, with EU & NATO help, without which it wouldn't be even sustainable. This has to be towards some goal though, which was presumably restoring internationally recognized borders. If we actually aren't willing or able to provide necessary support to achieve that, we should probably stop talking about territorial integrity and sovereignty and start negotiation with Putin for the least-bad outcome. I find it strange that the countries that a) Destroyed Iraq twice (once with Ukraine's help, no less) b) Stuck around Afghanistan for 20 years c) comprise like 2/3rs of the world military spending aren't willing or able to easily out-supply a corrupt kleptocracy with 1/10th the resources that's been sanctioned to hell. Fine, if it's too dangerous to hand over existing inventory (in case Switzerland invades), why not procure new stuff? The order could've been made last March, and the tank factory built almost 1000 tanks per year during the previous production runs. It took a year to put in the order order for 30 M1A2s, which just got downgraded as we saw. Rappaport posted:I know I'm the resident ridiculous EU critic in Dungeons and Debate, but I'm not sure this is how it would play out. I don't know how it goes in big countries like France who theoretically could wage a war of aggression, but it feels like the voting populace doesn't really factor foreign policy into their voting decisions that much. Unless it's for explicit protest vote type stuff, like the various neo-nazi parties all over Europe (whoo boy).
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 18:55
|
|
|
mobby_6kl posted:Still no ATACMS for some reason Oh, we did get the official reason a few months ago. The U.S. doesn't think that they've got enough of them for their own needs.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 19:05
|
|
|
The US has a somewhat legitimate reason to not dig so deep into their own military stockpiles to give to to Ukraine that it affects their own national security. There's a very real possibility the US and China will be going at it at some point in the future. But Europe? Their entire military basically exists to fend off Russia. I feel like they can get away with providing more arms to Ukraine since Europe's only real foe is too busy getting bogged down in Ukraine to be a threat to them.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 19:16
|
|
|
cinci zoo sniper posted:Oh, we did get the official reason a few months ago. The U.S. doesn't think that they've got enough of them for their own needs. Literally just saw some good news for a change though, Patriot coming in sooner than expected, probably within a few weeks: https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/21/politics/us-patriots-ukraine/index.html quote:US trainers at Fort Sill, where the 65 Ukrainians have been training since January 15, were able to significantly speed up the timeline of the course because of the Ukrainians’ baseline knowledge of air defense systems, the officials said.  Edit: Charliegrs posted:The US has a somewhat legitimate reason to not dig so deep into their own military stockpiles to give to to Ukraine that it affects their own national security. There's a very real possibility the US and China will be going at it at some point in the future. But Europe? Their entire military basically exists to fend off Russia. I feel like they can get away with providing more arms to Ukraine since Europe's only real foe is too busy getting bogged down in Ukraine to be a threat to them. mobby_6kl fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Mar 21, 2023 |
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 19:20
|
|
|
Charliegrs posted:The US has a somewhat legitimate reason to not dig so deep into their own military stockpiles to give to to Ukraine that it affects their own national security. There's a very real possibility the US and China will be going at it at some point in the future. But Europe? Their entire military basically exists to fend off Russia. I feel like they can get away with providing more arms to Ukraine since Europe's only real foe is too busy getting bogged down in Ukraine to be a threat to them. There's no such thing as "Europe's military" like you put it. There never was a monolithic European army, just several smaller ones. You say that Europe's militaries exist to fend of Russia, well, they used to, but the cold war ended. What is there is fragmented between countries and most of it is in complete shambles due to decades of military spending being slashed because the big bad enemy sort of vanished overnight. So you have a couple of countries that have specialized in certain things they can do well, but overall most of the hardware was sold off or in various states of disrepair. A great example of this is Spain's Leopard 2 stocks. Yes they have a couple 100 of them but they have been sitting in a warehouse rotting away and they haven't even been able to scrape together a couple dozen working ones. It's pretty dire.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 19:26
|
|
|
mobby_6kl posted:Interesting how quickly it's possible to get poo poo done in war time You're trying to argue for the political will to spend/supply more to a foreign power, that's really what it all boils down to. Could the US/NATO do more? Sure but they're weighing a bunch of factors many we aren't privy too when deciding what they want to send. Domestic politics plays a huge roll in this, with inflation and supply chain shortages from the pandemic a lot of leaders were probably weary of the optics of spending a ton of money on building stuff for another countries war.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 19:26
|
|
|
The "why weren't NATO countries placing orders on day 1" overlooks the fact that everyone expected Ukraine to collapse on day 1. It was about two months before NATO was convinced enough of Ukraines staying power to start sending artillery and it wasn't until mid-summer that the war really took its present shape. And yes govt procurement really is generally that slow that it takes 6-9 months for things to start rolling. That's why Emergency Powers exist and nobody is using those for another country's emergency.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 19:27
|
|
|
Popete posted:You're trying to argue for the political will to spend/supply more to a foreign power, that's really what it all boils down to. Could the US/NATO do more? Sure but they're weighing a bunch of factors many we aren't privy too when deciding what they want to send. Domestic politics plays a huge roll in this, with inflation and supply chain shortages from the pandemic a lot of leaders were probably weary of the optics of spending a ton of money on building stuff for another countries war. Obviously there are other concerns that are overshadowing this in some circles, which is kind of my point. This is the biggest potential foreign policy opportunity since WW2 to do something actually good, improve reputation, demonstrate soft and hard power, and it comes off somewhat  Random Integer posted:The "why weren't NATO countries placing orders on day 1" overlooks the fact that everyone expected Ukraine to collapse on day 1. It was about two months before NATO was convinced enough of Ukraines staying power to start sending artillery and it wasn't until mid-summer that the war really took its present shape.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 19:40
|
|
|
UK is apparently sending depleted uranium ammunition to Ukraine along with the Challenger 2 tanks https://mobile.twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1638197405110747138 Putin is upset by this https://mobile.twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1638215156600651776 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 19:42
|
|
|
mobby_6kl posted:Oh really? Before that I remember it was "Ukraine doesn't really need long-range strike capability" Yes. I'm not sure what's the point that you're trying to make with the cutesy smiley, though, but I'll remind you just in case that I'm not the U.S. President, contrary to any potential beliefs. cinci zoo sniper posted:U.S. are saying that a significant wrinkle in supplying ATACMS to Ukraine is that Americans don't think they've got enough of them for themselves. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/02/13/u-s-wont-send-long-range-missiles-ukraine-00082652
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 19:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 13:38 |
|
|
Szarrukin posted:Polish-Soviet war from 1918-21? That was a counter-attack. fez_machine posted:Given the location The Crimean War is a notable one you've missed. Russia also arguably started that one. In all honesty I might have included World War I too, and that the Russian Empire did lose, but its losses were reversed over the course of the next 25 years. My point stands that so-called Russian fears of having a weak and difficult to defend western frontier has a basis in historical reality that is just as weak and difficult to defend. Anyway, don't want to cause much of a derail here.
|
|
#
?
Mar 21, 2023 19:52
|
|
