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What I'm learning from all this is that I can file for bankruptcy, abuse the system to no end, and not see any consequences.
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Mar 28, 2023 14:17
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You're not rich and famous enough. You'll just get reamed for legal bills and economically ruined for the rest of your life.
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Mar 28, 2023 14:20
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Killing me that Jones gets some dumbass 'now let's give the benefit of the doubt' guy for his shot while Lakeith Smith had the dumbest 'need to make you feel responsible for something you didn't even do' judge possible, who basically doubled down when questioned on it bc how dare you question me I'm a judge. Blughl America.
StrangersInTheNight fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Mar 28, 2023 |
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Mar 28, 2023 14:22
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kw0134 posted:Jones loving around with the bankruptcy court inevitably means that it'll work overtime to find where all the cash is and disbelieve all his various defenses, including his transparent "I owe money to this guy who might be my dad, who can say" fraudulent transfers. The funny thing is that usually the death penalty for bankruptcy court is dismissal of the petitioner's case, but the plaintiffs probably want him to stay right where he is so they can use the power of that court to shake down everyone he knows, might have known, could possibly have known, or passed in the night that one time for money. Normally you might go back to court to start compelling various people or entities for the cash Jones was trying to hide, but it's all here and they're all pissed at him. This is another point I hadn't brought up in my previous posts about the workings of bankruptcy. Usually bankruptcy and similar formal debt discharging (e.g. consumer proposals in countries where that's a thing), once formally engaged, are strictly "no debts are getting paid anymore". Every entity that's owed money is officially meant to be incommunicado with the debtor, and if they reach out the debtor (which is normal because the speed at which this information travels allows for lapses like this) has to say "actually I've formally entered bankruptcy proceedings" with maybe a contact/case number. There is no "I'm in debt to this person but they're my buddy and I want to do them a solid", the "buddy" has to deal with the bankruptcy court formally for whatever fraction of debts they can collect, and legally that's the end of it and they don't get any special favors. They obviously never have to work with the debtor again (although there may be exceptions to this for things like national banks), but the debt is a done deal and there's no legal avenues for them to get more money from the person from there. And you do get a formal record saying "you entered into bankruptcy on this date" and if some ancient forgotten debt comes knocking later on, too bad, they legally are owed nothing, it's a very real clean slate. So in other words, transferring money to "pay off debts" at this stage is probably not allowed, although I'm not 100% sure where exactly in the process the bankruptcy actually is so it might be.
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Mar 28, 2023 15:03
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We're well past that stage and all the itemized creditors should have gotten a notice that the debtor is in bankruptcy, do not send further bills, etc. But bankruptcy looks at all payments and has a lookback period of three years (not entirely sure) of the filing to see whether they're legitimate -- paying your electric bill up to the moment of filing is going to get an obvious pass, paying an invoice for 1000 widgets the week of to your brother's company less so. The US Trustees aren't stupid either, and they've seen every variant of whatever cockamamie scam you think you're gonna pull on them. StrangersInTheNight posted:Killing me that Jones gets some dumbass 'now let's give the benefit of the doubt' guy for his shot while Lakeith Smith had the dumbest 'need to make you feel responsible for something you didn't even do' judge possible, who basically doubled down when questioned on it bc how dare you question me I'm a judge. Blughl America.
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Mar 28, 2023 16:24
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kw0134 posted:Every time he wriggles and gets caught even harder, people go "ah! well nonetheless" and it's kind of maddening. Makes the thread unreadable tbh
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Mar 28, 2023 16:35
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Maddening, sure. Quite understandable though. The US is just not built to do things like hold the rich accountable. Jones had to go to unbelievable (literally, as in things beyond belief) lengths to piss off the court enough to actually force the end result of him being held accountable. It's just now how the system operates. I totally get why people still don't expect it to happen. Anybody else that wasn't constantly and endlessly a belligerent rear end in a top hat or that listened to their lawyers would have skated past all this and likely not even gotten a slap on the wrist.
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Mar 28, 2023 16:36
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It's extremely rare to have your case thrown out, and he did it twice. Every time he got caught in some shenanigans he made it harder and harder for himself, all those self-inflicted paper cuts started adding up until he just plain lost. It's not even clear that he really delayed a reckoning because he's fast tracking himself into penury first by having the issue of liability settled right off the bat, then getting nailed for being a complete rear end in a top hat in front of a jury that became disposed to giving the plaintiffs all they wanted, then revealing his very obvious attempts at hiding his assets from the newly empowered plaintiffs. Jones was wealthy and he hosed it all up. Nothing he's doing has been to his benefit, at all. So far all that's happened it that the various courts have been feeding him more rope by which to hang himself. If I have a 1.4billion dollar judgement against him, I'd enjoy him twisting in the wind trying his bullshit and getting nowhere.
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Mar 28, 2023 16:52
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StrangersInTheNight posted:Killing me that Jones gets some dumbass 'now let's give the benefit of the doubt' guy for his shot while Lakeith Smith had the dumbest 'need to make you feel responsible for something you didn't even do' judge possible, who basically doubled down when questioned on it bc how dare you question me I'm a judge. Blughl America. You know why
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Mar 28, 2023 18:01
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Borscht posted:What I'm learning from all this is that I can file for bankruptcy, abuse the system to no end, and not see any consequences. Are you even actually paying attention? The bankruptcy case has been a huge disaster for him! Not only has he failed to get his assets sheltered by it, but it triggered an in-depth investigation of his finances, discovering a number of hidden income flows no one would have known about otherwise. It also considerably locked down his finances and prevented him from acting to further hide assets; FSS is literally under the control of a trustee appointed by the bankruptcy court right now.
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Mar 28, 2023 18:05
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Whatever happened with the one lawyer trying to get the Texas Supreme Court to look at the punitive damage cap and possibly get it thrown out? Is that still pending or did it already fizzle?
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Mar 28, 2023 18:18
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kw0134 posted:It's extremely rare to have your case thrown out, and he did it twice. Every time he got caught in some shenanigans he made it harder and harder for himself, all those self-inflicted paper cuts started adding up until he just plain lost. It's not even clear that he really delayed a reckoning because he's fast tracking himself into penury first by having the issue of liability settled right off the bat, then getting nailed for being a complete rear end in a top hat in front of a jury that became disposed to giving the plaintiffs all they wanted, then revealing his very obvious attempts at hiding his assets from the newly empowered plaintiffs.
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Mar 28, 2023 18:29
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Yeah, and? Unless you're suggesting that a tropical vacation is worth billions of dollars, that doesn't change his reality. Bankruptcy doesn't mean the court throws him into a Honda Civic and tells him to eat ramen. For the sums involved, these are all rounding errors. I'm sorry he's not immediately in rags, but that's not how it works for anyone in bankruptcy. IF that seems unfair, it's because Jones is in fact starting at a higher level. That just means he's got a lot farther to fall than most people.
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Mar 28, 2023 19:08
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His life doesn't seem to be worsened at all, yet, by the penalties he's been given. Yeah yeah he's angry and his reputation and business bullshit, but he wakes up in the same mansion, goes to the same job, takes the same vacations, eats the same food, lives the same life of luxury. I don't doubt he'll eventually start to suffer, but he ain't yet and that is rightfully infuriating. Everything north of 10mil is just made up numbers anyways for day-to-day impact on your quality of life.
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Mar 28, 2023 19:25
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Baron von Eevl posted:Whatever happened with the one lawyer trying to get the Texas Supreme Court to look at the punitive damage cap and possibly get it thrown out? Is that still pending or did it already fizzle? The judge in the lower court awarded beyond the cap. It’s now up to Jones team to successfully argue that the damages should be capped to a higher court.
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Mar 28, 2023 19:27
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Baron von Eevl posted:Whatever happened with the one lawyer trying to get the Texas Supreme Court to look at the punitive damage cap and possibly get it thrown out? Is that still pending or did it already fizzle? They're still dealing with all of the sanctions that came out of the Heslin/Lewis case, I think. Edit: OK then.
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Mar 28, 2023 19:31
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Slyphic posted:His life doesn't seem to be worsened at all, yet, by the penalties he's been given. Yeah yeah he's angry and his reputation and business bullshit, but he wakes up in the same mansion, goes to the same job, takes the same vacations, eats the same food, lives the same life of luxury.
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Mar 28, 2023 19:42
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kw0134 posted:Yeah, and? Unless you're suggesting that a tropical vacation is worth billions of dollars, that doesn't change his reality. Bankruptcy doesn't mean the court throws him into a Honda Civic and tells him to eat ramen. For the sums involved, these are all rounding errors. I'm sorry he's not immediately in rags, but that's not how it works for anyone in bankruptcy. IF that seems unfair, it's because Jones is in fact starting at a higher level. That just means he's got a lot farther to fall than most people. you are literally describing a person who has yet to face any actual material consequences and going "I just don't see why people are frustrated that he keeps getting away with it" if you or i or literally almost any other person pulled the same poo poo we would be hosed five times over. that's why people are frustrated, because homie here is living his best life, going on vacations, shilling his dogshit, and still being one of the most hateful people on his dogshit radio show. and that's after the rampant, obvious attempts at pulling poo poo with the courts. people are tired and waiting for something to actually loving matter to him, not just his estate or his finances or whatever. and until something actually loving does matter, people are right to be upset and frustrated.
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Mar 28, 2023 19:46
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kw0134 posted:instant karma It's been 3 months. There's no sign it won't be 3 years to me. I get that being inside the system this is all normalized to you, but from the outside it's hot steaming bullshit. If I acted the way he did on the stand, I'd be in jail. He should be in jail. Eating jail food and sleeping on a jail bed and staring at jail walls. Anything short of that is gross injustice and we are all rightfully perfectly justified about being angry about it. What's crazy is how blasé YOU are being about it. Probably also some judicial blueballs from that coward in NY that won't pull the trigger and light off ACW2.
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Mar 28, 2023 19:52
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Slyphic posted:It's been 3 months. There's no sign it won't be 3 years to me. "You, a person who knows this topic, say this is normal. But I, a person who doesn't, thinks this is too slow. Clearly you're just biased rather than I'm misinformed."
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Mar 28, 2023 19:54
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kw0134 posted:There's no such thing as instant karma in the legal system. I get it, but being mad that he didn't instantly turn into a pauper is not something that happens to anyone at all. I have no beef with you at all, and i have no stakes in this, but I feel like this kind of statement blatantly looks over the kind of working poor/lower class that get decimated a single ticket/pull over/court date/having to pay bail, that sets them back and/or forces them to take loans which cripples them instantly. Something like this but amidst my work shift I can't figure out the easy ways to find more of these stories. I imagine that keeping your head just above water to be hit with one of these IS instant 'karma', or as close as you can get. I'm tempted to ask whether you overlooked it on purpose or if you think they're just incomparable...but objectively, this kind of thing is sadly very common so even if you say what I quoted, it sure feels like people doing much lesser offenses get their lives turned upside down pretty much immediately while someone who caused decades long harassment and worse are still able to just ask for money, and get it. There's no easy way to process that or rationalize it, from my perspective.
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Mar 28, 2023 19:56
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Xiahou Dun posted:"You, a person who knows this topic, say this is normal. But I, a person who doesn't, thinks this is too slow. Clearly you're just biased rather than I'm misinformed." That person isn't saying "no, THIS is how things really work." They're saying that "this loving sucks that this is how things really work and I'm angry." So am I.
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Mar 28, 2023 19:56
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Pennywise the Frown posted:That person isn't saying "no, THIS is how things really work." They're saying that "this loving sucks that this is how things really work and I'm angry." Yes, it is bullshit. But yelling at the lawyer who is explaining how civil law works isn't helpful. Obviously there are some problems in the legal system, but someone explaining the current realities doesn't deserve this treatment at all.
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Mar 28, 2023 20:00
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Xiahou Dun posted:Yes, it is bullshit. True. I just sort of skimmed it so I wasn't too invested. Getting angry at someone else besides Jones or the system isn't quite helpful.
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Mar 28, 2023 20:01
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Zamujasa posted:you are literally describing a person who has yet to face any actual material consequences and going "I just don't see why people are frustrated that he keeps getting away with it" yet poo poo-tons of people get away with scams and financial crime for quite some time before it catches up with them. Like, that gofundme couple who collected six figures for the homeless guy and then kept it for themselves, ie utterly blatant scammers, still took a few years to get what was coming for them. Try it some time, I bet you'll get away with it for a while too! and alex jones, no matter how disgusting he is, isn't actually getting done for crime. it's a civil suit and civil bankruptcy. that's not the state catching up with a criminal, alex jones isn't going to jail (unless he does sufficiently illegal poo poo in the bankruptcy). in the case like that it's a good thing that the state is carefully and neutrally mediating. Short attention span culture explains a lot about alex jones, the republican party, crypto bros, and the whole massive wave of scammers and grifters that are everywhere now. The perpetrators get away with it for a while, and think they're invincible. So they escalate. And then everybody else thinks that nothing ever happens to them because it takes too long and they get bored.
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Mar 28, 2023 20:03
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kw0134 posted:but being mad that he didn't instantly turn into a pauper is not something that happens to anyone at all. Unless you're poor, black, trans, disabled, etc.
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Mar 28, 2023 20:07
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Slyphic posted:It's been 3 months. There's no sign it won't be 3 years to me. Morter posted:I have no beef with you at all, and i have no stakes in this, but I feel like this kind of statement blatantly looks over the kind of working poor/lower class that get decimated a single ticket/pull over/court date/having to pay bail, that sets them back and/or forces them to take loans which cripples them instantly. Something like this but amidst my work shift I can't figure out the easy ways to find more of these stories.
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Mar 28, 2023 20:09
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Xiahou Dun posted:But yelling at the lawyer who is explaining how civil law works isn't helpful. Obviously there are some problems in the legal system, but someone explaining the current realities doesn't deserve this treatment at all. It just.... The news story de jure in Austin is about a 71 year old lady that got trespassed from the airport for seemingly being confused and sitting in a chair. They threw her rear end in jail lickety split and broke her arm in only 3 days. Justice system seems plenty speedy when the target is weak.
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Mar 28, 2023 20:14
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Slyphic posted:I was getting more apologism than commiseration from his post, but maybe I'm being overly sensitive to the umpteenth blatant flaunting of justice this week by yet another weather scumbag. Sorry dude. Seriously, not trying to pick a fight, just venting into a thread. You keep confusing the criminal and civil justice systems. I agree with you about the justice system having major problems, and kw does too as far as I can tell, but you’re getting angry at people who are trying to explain how to vent your ire in a more productive way.
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Mar 28, 2023 20:19
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Most everyone agrees the criminal justice system is a pile of inequities, but that's the problem, Jones isn't in the criminal system. These are not the same and don't have the same rules, and applying the injustices of being black while driving doesn't work with lawsuits in a defamation matter. Doing it indiscriminately certainly doesn't make things more just either.
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Mar 28, 2023 20:24
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I get the distinction between civil and criminal, but I seriously (I'm being open and honest here) don't understand why his trying to hide funds from a civil judgement isn't a criminal offense. He's dealing with the state at this point, it's not the state mediating a dispute between two private parties, they've told him what to do and he's told them to suck poo poo and get hosed. How is him mouthing off and lying to the judge and court appointed entities any different than back talking a sheriff?
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Mar 28, 2023 20:27
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"things are going too slow because jones is rich and white" "um...excuse me, i think you'll find things are going at the exact speed they do for people who are rich and white" oh well. nevermind then. carry on.
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Mar 28, 2023 20:28
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Slyphic posted:How is him mouthing off and lying to the judge and court appointed entities any different than back talking a sheriff? Because people assumed no one would do this so it's not illegal at the moment.
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Mar 28, 2023 20:32
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Klyith posted:yet Well, there's the whole blatant perjury thing, which is in fact a criminal act, AIUI. I can't speak for others, but it really is the fact that if I were to blatantly ignore a court order, lie to the court under oath, hold it in contempt, etc, I wouldn't just have it added to a tally of things that will eventually matter. When I was an idiot child, I went to traffic court without understanding how you're supposed to make a deal with the prosecutor to plead guilty, and didn't realize that I had to actually bring money to pay the traffic ticket at the time of judgement. The consequence for that was having to choose between spending a night in jail, or calling my parents and telling them that I had blatantly lied to them about where I was going to that afternoon and please bring money thanks. My consequences were IMMEDIATE; there was no "ah, well, in three years you'll see what happens when you still have mostly the same life as before." I think that's the real disconnect; we see continuous examples of loving around, and we're used to finding out really fast. Watching these consequences just not happen, while being promised that they totally will, feeds into the larger political aspects of blatant crime just being quietly excused because it is expedient. Destroy a bunch of evidence of election fraud after being specifically told to preserve it by the court, but you're also the county government? Aw, you scamp, how can we stay mad at you? Don't worry, we'll still tell everyone how concerned we are. Destroy evidence of literal torture? Nah, NBD. Perform a literal parade of crimes while live tweeting them for a decade? Don't worry, We're all just so used to seeing this happen and hearing the promise of justice that never comes. The biggest shock of Derek Chauvin's trial was that he actually got convicted and sentenced to a non-trivial sentence, instead of being briefly hired back by his department so that he could retire for life long benefits. But, it also took a four day riot to make the most open and shut murder case possible happen, all while ignoring the continuous stream of false police reports. If the video evidence wasn't publicly released for everyone to see, it's very likely they he would have gotten a medal instead of a connection. We are so used to the "find out" part never actually happening that "this will matter, I promise, don't worry, there will be actual consequences eventually" is literally unbelievable at this point. I'm just so tired of it, and I think other people are too, when "eventually" usually means "never." It's fun to watch the schadenfreude but "deeply concerned" just means "NBD" in our minds at this point. Volmarias fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Mar 28, 2023 |
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Mar 28, 2023 20:37
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Volmarias posted:We are so used to the "find out" part never actually happening that "this will matter, I promise, don't worry, there will be actual consequences eventually" is literally unbelievable at this point. I'm just so tired of it, and I think other people are too, when "eventually" usually means "never." It's fun to watch the schadenfreude but "deeply concerned" just means "NBD" in our minds at this point. It's extra frustrating when the same people who get away with everything are the ones promoting fast-tracking literal genocidal laws against your community and all the legal experts say, "oh, it'll get struck down by a court eventually, these things take time!" while people are being detransitioned or flat-out murdered right the gently caress now, and it just makes it blatant how badly skewed both civil and criminal law really are.
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Mar 28, 2023 20:45
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Honestly this thread is in it’s Trump will be arrested any day now phase
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Mar 28, 2023 20:49
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I'm trying to understand here. I went and read up on civil vs criminal contempt in my state, on my state's bar association web site. I've been reading about cases of actual incarceration for criminal contempt during civil trials as well, though those are harder to find. And I say again, I don't understand why Jones is still a free man other than the judge isn't willing to challenge a rich white guy for the usual pathetic reasons. It also stand in stark contrast to the last trial I read about closely, the 1984 Bell Systems breakup. Judge Harold Greene would have had the gumption to jail to Jones.
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Mar 28, 2023 21:00
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To be clear, I'm sure something WILL eventually happen, and I can understand how the bankruptcy trial is actually going to turbo gently caress him, in the end. It's just difficult to stay confident that justice will eventually be served, while he continues to cause tangible damage. Justice delayed is justice denied etc etc etc.
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Mar 28, 2023 21:02
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Slyphic posted:It's been 3 months. There's no sign it won't be 3 years to me. You really wouldn't be. Not in a civil case. If you acted that way on the stand, you would eventually lose your case and get a "gently caress you" maximum verdict from the judge. And that's exactly what happened to Jones! He wouldn't owe literally one billion US dollars if he'd shut the gently caress up and listened to his lawyers. Hell, the judge actually struck down a legislative cap on damages just to hit Jones harder. He hasn't lost his bankruptcy case yet, but the court has locked down nearly all his business assets. His salary's been cut to a third of what it was before, and he can't pull any more money out of the business without explaining it to a judge and getting the judge's permission. And, again, he hasn't even lost the case yet! These are just temporary measures to stop him from further hiding the money or pulling a Lowtax. And at this point, it's honestly better that he hasn't lost the case yet, because it means more time for the courts to dig through all his assets and find what he's been hiding. Slyphic posted:I get the distinction between civil and criminal, but I seriously (I'm being open and honest here) don't understand why his trying to hide funds from a civil judgement isn't a criminal offense. He's dealing with the state at this point, it's not the state mediating a dispute between two private parties, they've told him what to do and he's told them to suck poo poo and get hosed. How is him mouthing off and lying to the judge and court appointed entities any different than back talking a sheriff? If he actually starts missing payments, the courts have a wide variety of tools to enforce the verdict, which can include "putting him in jail for contempt of court". At this point, though, I don't think a payment schedule has even been worked out yet. His assets are all locked up by the bankruptcy hearing, so he couldn't pay it right now even if he wanted to. A sheriff can't throw you in jail just for backtalking them, but they can choose to interpret things about you in the worst possible light in the course of their normal duties, which might be a bad idea if their normal duties currently include deciding whether or not to send you to jail. And judges do the same thing, which is why it is a notoriously bad idea to piss off the judge. Because if you are involved in a civil court case, then the judge is the final arbiter who will determine your fate, and they can and will gently caress you over if you've sufficiently pissed them off. That's how Jones lost the lawsuits in the first place, in fact! He hosed around so much that the judges just skipped the trials and declared him a loser by default.
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Mar 28, 2023 21:06
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Slyphic posted:I get the distinction between civil and criminal, but I seriously (I'm being open and honest here) don't understand why his trying to hide funds from a civil judgement isn't a criminal offense. He's dealing with the state at this point, it's not the state mediating a dispute between two private parties, they've told him what to do and he's told them to suck poo poo and get hosed. How is him mouthing off and lying to the judge and court appointed entities any different than back talking a sheriff? Slyphic posted:I'm trying to understand here. I went and read up on civil vs criminal contempt in my state, on my state's bar association web site. I've been reading about cases of actual incarceration for criminal contempt during civil trials as well, though those are harder to find.
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Mar 28, 2023 21:09
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