War in Ukraine CE: The Golf War

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Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Kraftwerk posted:

Is there any news about Ukraine switching their service rifles to NATO 5.56.mm variants or are they still using Soviet/Russian 5.45mm and these "millions of rounds" are being procured through some other means?

It shouldn't be too difficult to convert manufacturing lines to make whatever rifle calibre ammo, it's not secret high tech or anything. And unlike with artillery shells there should be plenty of base capacity to source from.

# ? Apr 4, 2023 21:59

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 00:34

WarpedLichen: Aug 14, 2008

Kraftwerk posted:

Is there any news about Ukraine switching their service rifles to NATO 5.56.mm variants or are they still using Soviet/Russian 5.45mm and these "millions of rounds" are being procured through some other means?

I dunno about anything official but it seems like small arms are as much a mish mash as everything else the Ukrainian army has. I'm pretty sure I've seen M4s for example in the Ukrainian forces.

# ? Apr 4, 2023 21:59

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

Orthanc6 posted:

The amount of ammo an entire nation needs for a few months to conduct a massive counter attack must be a fun job to figure out

If I were them I'd expect to get bogged down in city fights in several new locations, while also still holding the line everywhere else. So millions of small-arms ammo for a month or 2 does not surprise me.

I don't know if "ironic" is the best term, but ironically, this stuff is pretty well known. I was not a professional logistician, but my understanding is that they're able to model quite accurately the various categories of supplies used by units of various types conducting various types of operations.

Kraftwerk posted:

Is there any news about Ukraine switching their service rifles to NATO 5.56.mm variants or are they still using Soviet/Russian 5.45mm and these "millions of rounds" are being procured through some other means?

They're mostly using 5.45mm still, but there's so much of that ammunition around the world I don't doubt the West can just buy it from other countries and give it to Ukraine. As much as we Americans love our guns, we probably have manufacturers here in the US, even.

# ? Apr 4, 2023 22:01

kemikalkadet: Sep 16, 2012

Henrik Zetterberg posted:

How much airspace can a single Patriot battery cover? Can it like, protect Kyiv? Or are we talking a much smaller area?

In DCS they have a detection range of ~85 NM and a threat range of ~55 NM. I'm sure they're not real numbers but as a ballpark they have a pretty big coverage area.

# ? Apr 4, 2023 22:03

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Kraftwerk posted:

Is there any news about Ukraine switching their service rifles to NATO 5.56.mm variants or are they still using Soviet/Russian 5.45mm and these "millions of rounds" are being procured through some other means?

Still on 5.45 and 7.62 I believe. They tried switching away from the AK like 5 years ago, and made an M4-style 7.62 gun too. Now, of course, the calculus could very well be different, but AK is not artillery, and that stuff should be a dime a dozen.

# ? Apr 4, 2023 22:03

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

Popete posted:

Depends on the target and what version of Patriot, I don't think there's any for sure known numbers (stated numbers are almost always not accurate for obvious reasons) but I believe that yes it should cover a city sized area at least.

Ok I found an article sighting an unnamed US Official here

quote:

One former senior military official with knowledge of the Patriot system said it will be effective against short-range ballistic missiles and it represents a strong message of U.S. support, but one battery isn't going to change the course of the war.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the Ukraine deal has not yet been made public, noted that one Patriot battery has a long firing range, but can cover only a limited broad area. As an example, Patriots can effectively protect a small military base, but can't fully protect a large city such as Kyiv. They could only provide coverage for a segment of a city.

So maybe not cover the entirety of Kyiv.

# ? Apr 4, 2023 22:05

Small White Dragon: Nov 23, 2007; No relation.

Since we're talking about Finland, seems like there's been a significant shift in which party is control there. Does that affect anything?

(I'm not up on Finnish politics.)

# ? Apr 4, 2023 22:20

aphid_licker: Jan 7, 2009

Another problem is that it's only so many tubes, you have to think about what targets to even launch at.

# ? Apr 4, 2023 22:24

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

cinci zoo sniper posted:

Still on 5.45 and 7.62 I believe. They tried switching away from the AK like 5 years ago, and made an M4-style 7.62 gun too. Now, of course, the calculus could very well be different, but AK is not artillery, and that stuff should be a dime a dozen.

The US is changing to 6.8mm for infantry, scouts, combat engineers, and special forces, too. I have a bunch of thoughts on that new platform in the context of what we're learning in the War in Ukraine. I just need to find time to write it (and, honestly, I'm unsure if regulars itt would even be interested.)

# ? Apr 4, 2023 22:27

SaTaMaS: Apr 18, 2003

WarpedLichen posted:

Official defense.gov release of the aid package posted above:

https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/3350958/biden-administration-announces-additional-security-assistance-for-ukraine/

Presidential Drawdown aka quick section:

USAI aka slow section:

Is the Patriot in Ukraine already active?

At the beginning people were saying that the stuff the US was sending to Ukraine would actually save the US money since it was previous generation equipment that required upkeep. Is that still the case?

# ? Apr 4, 2023 22:28

Kavros: May 18, 2011; sleep sleep sleep
fly fly post post
sleep sleep sleep

Small White Dragon posted:

Since we're talking about Finland, seems like there's been a significant shift in which party is control there. Does that affect anything?

(I'm not up on Finnish politics.)

A tight election saw a loss for the left-wing PM Sanna Marin and right-wing parties making advances and taking her seat, some of which feels tied to economic troubles that came with the whole russia situation, but I'm sure there's a lot more to consider.

It won't effect the country's "gently caress russia" interparty solidarity or the whole being in NATO thing.

# ? Apr 4, 2023 22:29

Hiekkakauppias: Mar 26, 2008; OJ's humble beginnings in acting helped prepare him for the media spotlight in Calgary

Small White Dragon posted:

Since we're talking about Finland, seems like there's been a significant shift in which party is control there. Does that affect anything?

(I'm not up on Finnish politics.)

We are having an informative discussion on it in Finland-thread.

# ? Apr 4, 2023 22:30

spankmeister: Jun 15, 2008

Ynglaur posted:

The US is changing to 6.8mm for infantry, scouts, combat engineers, and special forces, too. I have a bunch of thoughts on that new platform in the context of what we're learning in the War in Ukraine. I just need to find time to write it (and, honestly, I'm unsure if regulars itt would even be interested.)

Fwiw I would be interested.

# ? Apr 4, 2023 22:38

Zhanism: Apr 1, 2005; Death by Zhanism. So Judged.

Ynglaur posted:

The US is changing to 6.8mm for infantry, scouts, combat engineers, and special forces, too. I have a bunch of thoughts on that new platform in the context of what we're learning in the War in Ukraine. I just need to find time to write it (and, honestly, I'm unsure if regulars itt would even be interested.)

Yes.

# ? Apr 4, 2023 22:42

Mederlock: Jun 23, 2012; You won't recognize Canada when I'm through with it; Grimey Drawer

Ynglaur posted:

The US is changing to 6.8mm for infantry, scouts, combat engineers, and special forces, too. I have a bunch of thoughts on that new platform in the context of what we're learning in the War in Ukraine. I just need to find time to write it (and, honestly, I'm unsure if regulars itt would even be interested.)

Also interested, but if not here, then definitely the Cold War/Airpower/unofficial Ukraine conflict thread in TFR would be a great alternative spot for it.

# ? Apr 4, 2023 22:43

Kraftwerk: Aug 13, 2011; i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Ynglaur posted:

The US is changing to 6.8mm for infantry, scouts, combat engineers, and special forces, too. I have a bunch of thoughts on that new platform in the context of what we're learning in the War in Ukraine. I just need to find time to write it (and, honestly, I'm unsure if regulars itt would even be interested.)

Also interested.

Some US servicemen I spoke to told me they prefer 5.56 because you can carry more of it comfortably on patrols. Apparently keeping your overall weight as low as possible is more important than whatever benefits a full power battle rifle round can offer.

I wonder if new recruits going through the pipeline learning on the 6.8mm will have a different opinion.

# ? Apr 4, 2023 23:04

Koorisch: Mar 29, 2009

Any information on how the training for the CV90's sent over to Ukraine is going?

I hope they'll be able to get some good use out of them.

# ? Apr 4, 2023 23:38

Djarum: Apr 1, 2004; by vyelkin

Kraftwerk posted:

Also interested.

Some US servicemen I spoke to told me they prefer 5.56 because you can carry more of it comfortably on patrols. Apparently keeping your overall weight as low as possible is more important than whatever benefits a full power battle rifle round can offer.

I wonder if new recruits going through the pipeline learning on the 6.8mm will have a different opinion.

The 6.8 is about the same size and weight as 5.56. The big difference is that the round is a hybrid case with a stainless steel jacket to handle the higher pressure it generates. It is designed to defeat advanced body armor that would be used by a near peer adversary.

My concern is that outside of active combat they will use a weaker full brass round for training, etc. There will no doubt be a difference as how the two rounds perform and losing that experience and muscle memory will be a thing. But on the plus side it will allow the rifles to have a much longer service life outside of combat due to less wear and tear from the less powerful round. As we have learned with Ukraine, a rifle in combat will only last a short amount of time anyway before it is either replaced or the user is out of action.

The other plus is they will all have a suppressor standard which is a huge thing as it will help save a lot of hearing.

# ? Apr 4, 2023 23:43

Mederlock: Jun 23, 2012; You won't recognize Canada when I'm through with it; Grimey Drawer

Djarum posted:

The 6.8 is about the same size and weight as 5.56. The big difference is that the round is a hybrid case with a stainless steel jacket to handle the higher pressure it generates. It is designed to defeat advanced body armor that would be used by a near peer adversary.

My concern is that outside of active combat they will use a weaker full brass round for training, etc. There will no doubt be a difference as how the two rounds perform and losing that experience and muscle memory will be a thing. But on the plus side it will allow the rifles to have a much longer service life outside of combat due to less wear and tear from the less powerful round. As we have learned with Ukraine, a rifle in combat will only last a short amount of time anyway before it is either replaced or the user is out of action.

The other plus is they will all have a suppressor standard which is a huge thing as it will help save a lot of hearing.

ACKSHUALLY modelled after the .308 and then necked down, not from 5.56 up to 6.8. Its even compatible with AR-10 magazines and whatnot if I'm remembering correctly. So it's going to be a good 30% reduction or whatever it ends up being in raw numbers compared to 5.56. But with the new auto-ballistically calculated aim point built right into the new sight at all useful ranges, I imagine we'll see accuracy beyond 300 meters skyrocket on this new platform, and have the oomph to punch through modern body armour at those extended ranges where the 5.56 wouldn't necessarily have the energy left

# ? Apr 4, 2023 23:52

Orthanc6: Nov 4, 2009

Mederlock posted:

ACKSHUALLY modelled after the .308 and then necked down, not from 5.56 up to 6.8. Its even compatible with AR-10 magazines and whatnot if I'm remembering correctly. So it's going to be a good 30% reduction or whatever it ends up being in raw numbers compared to 5.56. But with the new auto-ballistically calculated aim point built right into the new sight at all useful ranges, I imagine we'll see accuracy beyond 300 meters skyrocket on this new platform, and have the oomph to punch through modern body armour at those extended ranges where the 5.56 wouldn't necessarily have the energy left

What's the expected timeline for these replacing the current arsenal of 5.56? Cause that sounds like a timeline for Ukraine and Taiwan getting more hand-me-down guns and ammo than their bodies have room for.

# ? Apr 5, 2023 00:03

Mederlock: Jun 23, 2012; You won't recognize Canada when I'm through with it; Grimey Drawer

Orthanc6 posted:

What's the expected timeline for these replacing the current arsenal of 5.56? Cause that sounds like a timeline for Ukraine and Taiwan getting more hand-me-down guns and ammo than their bodies have room for.

I believe it's something like 250 000 units over the next 10 years. It's only a replacement for the firearms for the direct combat facing units like the infantry, etc., the rest of the military will still be on M-4's with 5.56 for a good long while

# ? Apr 5, 2023 00:06

madeintaipei: Jul 13, 2012

Djarum posted:

The 6.8 is about the same size and weight as 5.56. The big difference is that the round is a hybrid case with a stainless steel jacket to handle the higher pressure it generates. It is designed to defeat advanced body armor that would be used by a near peer adversary.

My concern is that outside of active combat they will use a weaker full brass round for training, etc. There will no doubt be a difference as how the two rounds perform and losing that experience and muscle memory will be a thing. But on the plus side it will allow the rifles to have a much longer service life outside of combat due to less wear and tear from the less powerful round. As we have learned with Ukraine, a rifle in combat will only last a short amount of time anyway before it is either replaced or the user is out of action.

The other plus is they will all have a suppressor standard which is a huge thing as it will help save a lot of hearing.

With my admittedly limited info from this war, I'm not sure the bolded is as true as in previous land wars within Europe up to and including the Yugoslav Wars and Ukraine post 2014. Despite the rusty bullshit handed out to this last round of conscripts, both sides have large reserves of AKs (Ukraine also has access to other AK building nations' poo poo), plenty of rifle caliber ammo, robust domestic production of ammo, and little need to maintain plausible deniability about where it all comes from.

On the one hand, the AK is not as Lego-like as an AR. In comparison, damaged rifles can't be as easily taken apart and major components replaced. A bent barrel or otherwise damaged barrel will sideline an AK, and probably make it into donor parts to replace worn items on other rifles. This is less true of the AR, with it's relatively easily replaced barrel and split reciever (upper with bolt, barrel, and firing pin/lower with trigger pack, safety, and stock).

On the other hand, there is a lot of commonality in the AK platform rifles with what Ukraine and Russia field. This is split, roughly, between AKMs in 7.62 and AKM-74s in 5.45. Both of these variants share many parts and ammo with their respective squad automatic versions. This makes me think that captured small arms make up a not insignificant amount of even combat arm's weapons.

I'd be interested to hear what each country is left with afterwards and how they dealt with distribution of rifles from depots, repair shops, and captured stock. That's one we might actually get some quick info on as demilitarization or turn-in programs get going, non-standard types and parts kits get sold off, and modernization programs get underway.

As an aside, does anyone remember when Ukrainian MPs (parlimentarians, not military police) all got rifles? Wood-forend, short barreled AKs with folding stocks that I'm unfamiliar with.

# ? Apr 5, 2023 00:15

Dirt5o8: Nov 6, 2008; EUGENE? Where's my fuckin' money, Eugene?

Ynglaur posted:

The US is changing to 6.8mm for infantry, scouts, combat engineers, and special forces, too. I have a bunch of thoughts on that new platform in the context of what we're learning in the War in Ukraine. I just need to find time to write it (and, honestly, I'm unsure if regulars itt would even be interested.)

I'd also be interested on the sources for your body ratios in urban combat! Any good reading recommendations?

# ? Apr 5, 2023 00:38

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

madeintaipei posted:

As an aside, does anyone remember when Ukrainian MPs (parlimentarians, not military police) all got rifles? Wood-forend, short barreled AKs with folding stocks that I'm unfamiliar with.

IIRC that was 1 MP posting an FB post with an AKSU-74.

# ? Apr 5, 2023 00:57

madeintaipei: Jul 13, 2012

cinci zoo sniper posted:

IIRC that was 1 MP posting an FB post with an AKSU-74.

Ah ha! Rudyk with an AKSU-74.

Huh. The light wood threw me off. Consequence of only seeing them IRL in the US with darker furniture, I guess.

# ? Apr 5, 2023 01:33

Kraftwerk: Aug 13, 2011; i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Mederlock posted:

I believe it's something like 250 000 units over the next 10 years. It's only a replacement for the firearms for the direct combat facing units like the infantry, etc., the rest of the military will still be on M-4's with 5.56 for a good long while

Is there much difference at this point between using an M4 and using a submachine gun?

# ? Apr 5, 2023 01:36

Back Hack: Jan 17, 2010

Kraftwerk posted:

Is there much difference at this point between using an M4 and using a submachine gun?

Yes, the difference are leagues in scope.

# ? Apr 5, 2023 01:38

Charlz Guybon: Nov 16, 2010

Ynglaur posted:

The US is changing to 6.8mm for infantry, scouts, combat engineers, and special forces, too. I have a bunch of thoughts on that new platform in the context of what we're learning in the War in Ukraine. I just need to find time to write it (and, honestly, I'm unsure if regulars itt would even be interested.)

Is it actually going to happen? They've been talking about it for so long.

# ? Apr 5, 2023 02:08

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

Dirt5o8 posted:

I'd also be interested on the sources for your body ratios in urban combat! Any good reading recommendations?

I can't recall any good books on urban combat per se, but the battles below are fairly indicative.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aachen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ortona
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Berlin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad (though casualty counts for fighting only inside the city are hard to find)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mosul_(2016%E2%80%932017)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hu%E1%BA%BF
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Shusha_(2020)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grozny_(1999%E2%80%932000)

The Urban Warfare Podcast is excellent if you're interested in this topic. It's hosted by the Modern War Institute at the United States Military Academy at West Point.

# ? Apr 5, 2023 02:10

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

US Senior Defense Official (SDO) brief re: Ukraine today. Intro then excerpts as I choose.

Press Briefing:
https://www.defense.gov/News/Transcripts/Transcript/Article/3351824/senior-defense-official-holds-a-background-briefing-on-ukraine/
Press Release with PDA (fast from US stocks, $500 milion) and USAI (weeks to months/years contracted from industry, $2.1 billion)
https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/3350958/biden-administration-announces-additional-security-assistance-for-ukraine/

Highlights:
-SDO says lines largely static with significant artillery exchanges, but not much maneuver, and aim is to assist Ukraine go on counteroffensive [My note: just in the lasts 24-48 hours, some reports that Bakhmut lines might be moving in Russia's favor, but it's been months to move a matter of single-digit kilometers, and Bakhmut was originally thought to be potentially falling/evacuated a month ago]
-Four efforts: 1: Improved layered air defenses; 2: deliver steady flow of artillery rounds, other ammunition, spare parts, and maintenance support; 3: Armor (vehicle) donations; 4: train combined arms combat and maneuver
-SDO says US "understands" Ukrainian strategy in holding Bakhmut. Says Ukraine still has forces to pursue next phase of the war.
-When asked about US contracting for 122mm (soviet design) vs 155mm, the answer is kind of wishy-washy. Providing ammo for legacy guns, because Ukraine has them, but also there's a clear hunger for ammo amounts that the US and partners cannot sustain only from 155mm, though efforts are underway to increase 155mm production. [But the US has pretty publicly stated in press briefings and talks outside of this one that 155mm (and some other munitions) are not produced at a sufficient rate to meet demands due to prioritizing efficiency over raw production numbers.] I left all the howitzer discussion in, because there's a fair amount of reading between lines, especially when combined with past US statements over the past 6+ months about ordnance production numbers and drawdown of stocks.
-SDO does not say Wagner will be replaced or leadership in any domestic danger, just points out that there is squabbling, when asked about it
-No substantive update on Patriot employment or delivery timeline, Abrams delivery timeline.

quote:

STAFF: Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for joining us today for this background call. Joining us today is (inaudible) will be on background today with attribution to "a senior defense official".

And with that, I will turn it over to (inaudible).

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: Great, thank you.

Good afternoon, everyone. I am proud to announce a substantial new package of security assistance for Ukraine. Let me first offer some broader context, and then what I'll do is I'll summarize the capabilities that are included in this package today.

The war is at an important stage. Fighting continues in the east, but there have not been significant recent shifts in territorial control. The front lines are relatively static with significant exchanges of artillery, but without significant maneuver gains by either side.

As we have said previously, our focus is on supporting the Ukrainians to change the dynamic on the ground. We want to help Ukraine advance and hold its positions in what we expect will be a Ukrainian counteroffensive.

We continue to pursue that objective in several ways, including by working with allies and partners to provide new and significant capabilities and training. First, we have focused on enabling a layered and integrated approach to air defense; second, we are delivering a steady flow of artillery rounds and other ammunition, as well as spare parts and maintenance support to help sustain Ukraine's fight; third, we have marshalled commitments of important armor capabilities to enhance Ukraine's ability to conduct complex maneuvers; and fourth, to bring all of these capabilities to bear in a coordinated manner, we have expanded U.S.-led training of Ukraine's forces to focus on combined arms and joint maneuver operations.

We are putting all of these pieces together to provide full, lasting, combat-credible capabilities covering all of the steps from the donation, to the training, to the maintenance and sustainment. The substantial resources the United States has committed to Ukraine reflects the American interests and values that are at stake.

Judging from the significant commitments that our allies and partners have made, the stakes for Europe and the larger world are widely-recognized, as well. Allies stepped up again two weeks ago at the last meeting of the Ukraine Defense Contact Group chaired by Secretary Austin. In fact, when you look at security assistance for Ukraine as a percentage of GDP, among the top 20 donors, the United States is roughly in the middle.

And today, on all days, as we welcome Finland's accession to NATO, I want to point out that Finland is one of the highest contributors to Ukraine both in percentage of GDP terms and in total dollars spent on military assistance. We look forward to an even closer relationship with Finland now that it has officially become the 31st NATO ally.

The package we are announcing today will complement many of the capabilities our allies and partners are providing. So this is a two-part package. It includes $2.1 billion in additional commitments for procurement under the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative, as well as a drawdown of equipment from U.S. inventories valued at $500 million. As you know, drawdown and USAI authorities operate on different timelines, and our dual approach demonstrates our commitment to Ukraine's near-term needs, as well as its enduring strength over the longer term.

The full list of capabilities in this package was posted on the DOD website as always, so I'm not going to actually run through every single capability, but I want to summarize by describing three main categories of items.

First, the package includes important capabilities for air defense and to counter Russian unmanned aerial systems. This includes additional interceptors for both Patriot and NASAMS air defense systems, and it also includes new counter-UAS capabilities such as the 30-mm gun trucks to detect and intercept drones such as the Iranian-built Shaheds.

Second, in the category of fires, the package includes a range of items to help Ukraine sustain its fight. This includes additional Guided Multiple Launch Rocket Systems, or as we call them, GMLRS, as well as 155-mm artillery rounds, including Excaliber precision-guided rounds. It also includes additional mortar rounds, which continue to help ensure Ukraine has a layered indirect fires capability, including to support the close fight as its forces maneuver to push back Russian lines.

Third, the package includes several capabilities to support U.S.-provided armor. That includes 120-mm ammunition, which will support Ukraine's newly-formed armored tank battalions, as well as Abraham -- Abrams tanks that the United States has committed, 25-mm ammunition, which can be used on the Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicles that the United States previously committed, and also recovery vehicles and refuelers to keep the armor in the fight.

As I said at the top, we are focused both on the here and now and on the future. This dual package combining drawdown and procurement reflects that approach. The U.S. remains committed to the cause of a free and secure Ukraine.

And now, I look forward to taking your questions.

...

Q: Hi. Thank you. Two things. If you could just update us, for the senior defense official. Can you give us an update on training numbers, the total that have been trained, including on the -- on the Abrams, but as well, on all of the other training that's been going on in Europe?

And secondly, can you give us a better sense of the -- the communications, the satellite communications that's being provided. Is that Starlink, or is that paying for the -- an ongoing capability that the Starlink has provided, or is it a -- a different capability? Can you just help us understand what that is? Thank you.

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: Sure. I took down three -- three things then. In terms of the -- the training numbers, at this point, I think our numbers stand at more than 4,000 Ukrainian soldiers making up two brigades that were trained recently. Now, one of those brigades was for the Bradleys, and one was equipped with the Strykers. That was the training program in Grafenwoehr. But you know, when you look at the total training numbers since -- since the invasion last year, we -- we're up to more than 7,000 members trained of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

Abrams training has not yet begun, so we will -- we will give you a heads-up as we start that training program. We are still working on the equipment procurement, so we haven't -- we have not yet begun the training, but I would expect that that will happen relatively soon.

In terms of satellite communications, in this particular package, we are looking at a number of equipment items, but I can't comment on specific vendors because there is a -- a contracting process that is -- that is underway, so I just -- I can't get into that.

...

Q: Thank you so very much. I actually have a couple of questions.

One is equipment specific. Can you provide more details about what kind of gun trucks -- the 30 millimeter gun trucks, what kind of counter-UAS laser-guided rocket systems and what kind of precision aerial munitions are in this package? That's the first question.

Second question is is there any concern about the equipment that's been provided to Ukraine being used in Bakhmut? And is there any concern about the amount of effort and casualties that Ukraine is taking to defend that city, in terms of a -- a -- whether that affects the counter-offensive that's looming? Thanks.

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: Thank you. OK, several things.

So on the equipment, the specific equipment items, the gun trucks are a new item from -- from the United States. We're providing nine. They're called counter-UAS 30 millimeter gun trucks, and our expectation is that these will be able to detect and intercept drones, including the Iranian-built Shaheds, and it's -- it's a -- it's literally what it sounds like, a 30 millimeter gun mounted on a truck. Because that's procurement, it's going to take several months to be able to actually provide that to Ukraine.

And then I think you also asked about the 10 -- these are 10 mobile counter-UAS laser-guided rocket systems. These are going to enable -- this is also a new item -- this will enable Ukraine to fire precision rockets from mobile positions and they will use the APKWS, Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System, laser-guided munitions, again, to counter the drone threat, and the APKWS is something that was previously provided.

And then let's see here. On the precision -- the precision aerial munitions, that is -- that is a reference to JDAM, the Joint Direct Attack Munitions, and that also is through -- through procurement. So it will take a bit of time.

And in terms of your question more broadly about, you know, equipment being used in -- in Bakhmut, as -- as you know, we are in very close communication with the Ukrainian leadership team, the Ukrainian Armed Forces and the Ukrainian political leadership, and, you know, we -- we understand the -- the strategy that they have decided to pursue.

We absolutely are seeing the devastating loss of life that Russia is experiencing, with Wagner forces essentially being, you know, thrown -- thrown into a meat grinder and Russian forces being fixed in position because of the -- the robust Ukrainian defenses.

And so certainly we understand Ukraine's strategy and we are very confident that they do have the equipment that they need and that, as we are -- as we are helping them to field these newly trained forces, they do have the capabilities to be able to pursue whatever this next phase -- next phase looks like on the battlefield.

STAFF: Great, thank you. Our next question, we'll go to Alex Horton, Washington Post.

Q: Hey, thanks for doing this, SDO. I -- I -- I'm glad you brought up Bakhmut and equipment there. I was just outside the city a couple of weeks ago and I spoke to a battery commander who has D-30s. He wants M777s, doesn't have them, and his problem is running out of artillery shells for that. I see USAI is going to provide the 122 millimeter that would be used for this -- for this piece but it's simply becoming a math problem. Your ability to sustain artillery rounds is for the M777, not -- not what they mostly have, which is Soviet caliber.

So I'm -- I'm curious if -- if you are doing anything to combat this math problem? Are there any issues that you could, you know, address, like procuring the Soviet ammunition? And do you think maybe that the drip and drab approach to meter, you know, U.S. and NATO stockpile of howitzers, have -- have you come to see any flaws in that, now that they're running out of ammunition that you can't readily supply?

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: Great. So yeah, there's a lot of things that we are doing collaboratively with the Ukrainians on this question of both -- both the howitzers and the actual ammunition supplies.

So I'll start with just the fact that we're incredibly transparent with the Ukrainians. So they have a really good understanding of what ammunition we are planning to provide, when we are planning to provide it, you know, what caliber is this for -- you know, for the M777, as -- as you mentioned. Is this for Soviet-type artillery pieces?

So that enables them to be able to plan their operations and understand where they need to flow their -- their equipment. So that's the first thing. And again, we have this continual conversation with them, not just about what they need right now but what � but what are they going to need in the future, and that's where we can plan to be able to time our deliveries to support what they need on the battlefield.

In terms of the -- you know, the challenge of -- of maintaining sufficient supply of ammunition of whatever caliber, I think we're at this really helpful inflection point right now because previously, the U.S. and most of the allies were just drawing down from their own stocks when it came to Western caliber -- you mentioned the, you know, 155 for the -- for the -- say, the M777 howitzer, for instance. And obviously, there's a finite supply in our own stocks.

But now, we're at this point where we are also doing a healthy amount of procurement because of increased production of ammunition. And the U.S. was -- was really at the front end of this wave, increasing production and procurement of 155 ammunition.

So today, when Ukraine gets their deliveries of 155 from the United States, they're getting deliveries that include ammunition we procured from USAI many, many months ago. So that is starting to come online. But other allies are also starting to boost production. You -- I'm sure you heard about the EU announcement to significantly increase ammunition production in Europe.

So all of this is coming online in the next several months to be able to enable -- enable this to be a sustainable support mechanism for Ukraine.

Now, you also mentioned the -- the availability of -- of howitzers, and I want to emphasize that this is another area where we feel like we have provided the right -- the right capability, the right numbers of -- of howitzers, both the M777, as I mentioned, but also we've had a number of allies providing other Western-type howitzers, whether you're talking, you know, the -- the French CAESAR or other capabilities.

We want to make sure that those howitzers can be kept in the fight, and so that's why you see us focusing also on things like barrel replacement. These -- these howitzers are getting a lot of use. So we have redoubled our efforts on -- on -- on making sure that they are capable.

And then on maintenance, we -- we have tele-maintenance that -- that is possible so that, whether it's a howitzer or -- or -- or, you know, an infantry fighting vehicle, Ukrainian Armed Forces, you know, soldiers far -- far into the field can call back and get assistance from U.S. and allied partners to be able to repair and not necessarily have to actually take that capability offline.

But lastly, you can tell this is a topic I like to talk about. Lastly, in terms of the -- the, what we call non-standard caliber, this is basically Soviet-type artillery and ammunition, we have found many sources of this around the world.

So, you'll -- you did notice, I think, in this USAI package we have a number of different caliber of non-standard ammunition, mortars, et cetera. And so, we will continue to procure the use -- the use capabilities for the Ukrainians because we recognize that they still do have a lot of Soviet-type equipment. And if we can keep it in the fight we can enable their effectiveness.

All right, thank you.

Q: Great. What about -- a question to that. I appreciate it. What's the plan when they run out -- the Soviet and Russian-type of ammunition and they don't have enough M777 to replace them?

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: Well, I think we're always looking at what their total capability needs are. And we are always able to look at providing them with more, whether it's through procurement or through our own stocks. And that -- and that's not just true of Howitzers, that's -- that's across the board true. So, we're always evaluating those -- those total requirements.

STAFF: Great. Our next question will go to Carla Babb, "VOA."

Q: Hey, thanks for doing this. Appreciate it. I just wanted to follow up some of the news we're hearing about Wagner Group, that there are reports out there from the U.K. Defense Ministry that they're seeing signs that the Russians are looking to replace Wagner Group. What can you tell us about that?

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: Well, I'm not familiar with the -- the specific report that you mentioned, Carla. But I can say, you know, in general, what we have seen from Wagner on the battlefield is an incredible brutality in their -- in their operations. And on the part of their leadership, a real disregard for the lives of these Russian Wagner fighters.

We also do certainly see, you know, tension and infighting at the leadership levels. This is not just in terms of, you know, Wagner leadership but really across the board within, you know, Russian leadership we certainly are seeing a good deal of squabbling, I would say.

STAFF: Great, thank you. We'll get through a few more here. James Levinson, "Fox."

...

Q: No, that's perfect, ma'am. Thank you.

So as regard to the mobile UAS laser-guided rocket systems, is that part of the January JCO test that was aimed at finding systems like that? And if so, is this the first time the U.S. has sent a new experimental system that was designed explicitly for Ukraine in mind to Ukraine? Or is this part of an ongoing effort? Thank you.

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: Thanks. I would characterize this as part of an ongoing effort. But I am not familiar with the specifics of that -- that test. So I'd have to -- I'd have to get back to you with -- with that very specific detail.

Q: No worries. And -- and these are for the Shaheds as well, right?

SENIOR DEFENSE OFFICIAL: I'm sorry, yes. This is -- this is aimed at countering the Shaheds, among other -- among other drone threats.

# ? Apr 5, 2023 02:10

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

Kraftwerk posted:

Is there much difference at this point between using an M4 and using a submachine gun?

Yes. About 200m of difference in range, and much better penetration against light body armor. Submachineguns tend to use pistol-calibre ammunition, which means even if the bullet is larger (such as the .45 fired by many American submachineguns in the middle of the 20th century), they have far lower velocity.

Charlz Guybon posted:

Is it actually going to happen? They've been talking about it for so long.

Yes. Sig Sauer was granted the award, it's not being contested, and they're in production. The public news has the first units getting equipped in calendar Q3 this year, iirc. The initial volumes are low enough my guess is the special forces units get them first, and even then not all of them.

# ? Apr 5, 2023 02:17

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

Small White Dragon posted:

Since we're talking about Finland, seems like there's been a significant shift in which party is control there. Does that affect anything?

(I'm not up on Finnish politics.)

Not with regards to foreign or defence policy, which has always been a very consensus driven area in Finland. For example, even the biggest anti-EU party TF said beforehand that if they enter government coalition then they will not seek exit from EU even though it is their stated goal. Closing the borders from refugees and everyone else is more important them, but it's also unlikely that they would seek to harm themselves by turning against Ukrainians, especially as those are 'the right type' (wink wink nudge nudge). The same with austerity, defence won't get cuts and so there's also enough to give to Ukraine.

# ? Apr 5, 2023 03:30

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

Orthanc6 posted:

What's the expected timeline for these replacing the current arsenal of 5.56? Cause that sounds like a timeline for Ukraine and Taiwan getting more hand-me-down guns and ammo than their bodies have room for.

We could probably already hand over plenty of M16A4's, since they got replaced by M4's.

# ? Apr 5, 2023 04:35

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Orthanc6 posted:

What's the expected timeline for these replacing the current arsenal of 5.56? Cause that sounds like a timeline for Ukraine and Taiwan getting more hand-me-down guns and ammo than their bodies have room for.

The US is not fully replacing M4A1s or 5.56 weapons in general. FN still has a contract to make new-build M4A1s for the US military for years to come. The new weapons aren't replacing M4A1s for everyone in the US army and the army isn't expected to have its own 6.8mm ammo production online for a few more years from now. So the US won't be done with 5.56 or M4A1s any time this decade and probably not next decade either.

# ? Apr 5, 2023 04:44

Kraftwerk: Aug 13, 2011; i do not have 10,000 bircoins, please stop asking

Interestingly enough the Ukrainians aren�t getting old hand-me-down rifles from the US either. The M4s I�ve spotted in go-pro footage or in unboxing videos are all brand new. In some cases the UAF troops that aren�t using AK pattern rifles are carrying newer service rifles than what US army infantry get out of OSUT. Kinda crazy to think about.

# ? Apr 5, 2023 05:04

Kikas: Oct 30, 2012

cinci zoo sniper posted:

We don't know. It was in the coming weeks as of the 21st of March.

Edit: Finished reading the new aid package, fuel and SATCOM stuff seems to be standing out a little bit. Also, how much ammo 23 million rounds are, really - how quickly is infantry expected to be spending normal bullets?

Wait, I skimmed over that at first - 23 milion is a significant increase from the previous shipments from what I recall. They were given around 15 mil in the previous packages.

# ? Apr 5, 2023 08:09

Wibla: Feb 16, 2011

Ynglaur posted:

The US is changing to 6.8mm for infantry, scouts, combat engineers, and special forces, too. I have a bunch of thoughts on that new platform in the context of what we're learning in the War in Ukraine. I just need to find time to write it (and, honestly, I'm unsure if regulars itt would even be interested.)

I'd also be interested :sun:

Kraftwerk posted:

Interestingly enough the Ukrainians aren�t getting old hand-me-down rifles from the US either. The M4s I�ve spotted in go-pro footage or in unboxing videos are all brand new. In some cases the UAF troops that aren�t using AK pattern rifles are carrying newer service rifles than what US army infantry get out of OSUT. Kinda crazy to think about.

That's entirely understandable imo, the Ukrainians are actually fighting a war, give them the good stuff.

# ? Apr 5, 2023 09:14

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

cinci zoo sniper posted:

Also, how much ammo 23 million rounds are, really - how quickly is infantry expected to be spending normal bullets?

Finnish combat ration for assault rifles is 6x30 rounds, so if we take this as an average consumption per fighter then you are able to equip 128 thousand men to go into combat once. Or a few brigades to participate in combat for a week once a day. But this is a very simplistic calculation, in reality you don't expect cooks and mortar men to fire their rifles a lot but front soldiers especially in urban combat will use a lot more ammunition.

Then there's the US estimate from Vietnam war that it takes 50000 rounds to kill one enemy. If we use this assumption then that pile of ammo would be enough to kill... 460 Russian soldiers. Which makes more sense when you remember that it's the artillery that is the biggest killer in war, infantry's job is to find the enemy and pin them down so the big guns can hit them.

# ? Apr 5, 2023 09:26

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Nenonen posted:

Finnish combat ration for assault rifles is 6x30 rounds, so if we take this as an average consumption per fighter then you are able to equip 128 thousand men to go into combat once. Or a few brigades to participate in combat for a week once a day. But this is a very simplistic calculation, in reality you don't expect cooks and mortar men to fire their rifles a lot but front soldiers especially in urban combat will use a lot more ammunition.

Then there's the US estimate from Vietnam war that it takes 50000 rounds to kill one enemy. If we use this assumption then that pile of ammo would be enough to kill... 460 Russian soldiers. Which makes more sense when you remember that it's the artillery that is the biggest killer in war, infantry's job is to find the enemy and pin them down so the big guns can hit them.

Alright, what I'm taking away from this is that 23 million rounds is quite a bit, since this probably is backfilling spending in Bakhmut, and the number of soldiers there should be closer to 10k than to 100k.

# ? Apr 5, 2023 09:38

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 00:34

Tuna-Fish: Sep 13, 2017

Kraftwerk posted:

Is there any news about Ukraine switching their service rifles to NATO 5.56.mm variants or are they still using Soviet/Russian 5.45mm and these "millions of rounds" are being procured through some other means?

Ukraine is using a mix of all 4 of 7.62x39, 7.62x51, 5.45x39, 5.56x45. Must be fun for people working supply.

# ? Apr 5, 2023 11:16

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > War in Ukraine CE: The Golf War

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