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drat I got a coincidental emotional gut punch when I just so happened to start Season 4 of TNG a few days before watching Generations(which just got a new UHD release). Ended up watching the episode that introduces Picard's brother and the winery only about a day before I watched Generations where he has that pretty devastating scene with Troi after he gets the news about his brother's death. That was an amazing scene both with Stewarts performance and also the writing was outstanding.
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Apr 6, 2023 17:51
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Generations has some of the TNG cast’s best acting and I keep waiting for a general reevaluation of the movie to happen because of it. It’s TNG’s Final Frontier; messy execution, definitive character moments.
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Apr 6, 2023 18:13
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I'm not a fan of Generations at all, but I can accept that reevaluation of their acting; Stewart in particular. Spiner doesn't do a terrible job, I guess, but although I get what they were trying to do with the 'emotion chip' plot point I've never liked the execution at all.
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Apr 6, 2023 18:15
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It's just hard to get past how awkwardly the Kirk thing was handled, how they gave him a pretty drat good death that was thematically appropriate to the character, then undid that and gave him a Looney Tunes death instead. It does leave a bad taste in your mouth and probably overwhelms a lot of the films strengths for some people.
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Apr 6, 2023 18:19
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Generations has some of the TNG cast’s best acting and I keep waiting for a general reevaluation of the movie to happen because of it. Oh, I'm absolutely a fan of Generations over First Contact (even with its flaws). It's just that yesterday was First Contact Day and the discs arrived in the mail so that was the logical one to watch. First Contact was also one of the last hurrahs in practical effects in Trek films.
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Apr 6, 2023 18:20
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Generations has some of the TNG cast’s best acting and I keep waiting for a general reevaluation of the movie to happen because of it. I agree, with the caveat that I still think they're both largely flawed in ways I really can't defend. Generations is also saddled with that whole "passing the torch" thing which prevents it from truly succeeding/failing on its own merits.
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Apr 6, 2023 18:20
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I think it was a huge mistake to give him emotions, once you give him his ultimate goal, the character loses its distinctiveness and becomes much less interesting. Spock didn't suddenly get emotions in the movies, it's his lack of emotion and adherence to logic that is so compelling about the character. Same with Data, imo. It's even worse because the whole crisis of the movie would be averted because Data wouldn't have been too scared stop Soren. In retrospect: do it in FC, as part of the Borg queen's temptations.
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Apr 6, 2023 18:21
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bull3964 posted:Oh, I'm absolutely a fan of Generations over First Contact (even with its flaws). Generations is a big mess. It's not a good sendoff for the TOS crew, and it's not a good 'coming out' for the TNG crew either. They really needed to trim some of the story entirely. It feels like a TV episode with how many B plots there are.
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Apr 6, 2023 18:21
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bull3964 posted:Related but unrelated, I watched the new 4k disc of First Contact last night and MAN is it nice to have some decent quality masters of the Trek movies finally. I'm elated that they not only did a bangup job on all the TOS movies, but they continued it through to the TNG movies as well. The blu-rays weren't just inferior to native 4k HDR options, they were bad even by the standards of blu-ray. It makes it all the more frustrating that there's just TWO entries in the entire franchise that are being neglected at this point, let's bring everything into the modern era while we still can. This is actually a pretty underrated aspect of the whole 4k UHD thing. Often people don't realize that blu rays weren't created equal, the blu ray era had a ton of stinkers that absolutely were not doing the films justice and in some cases were borderline unwatchable. So there are times where a UHD is about correcting those past mistakes as much as anything else. That's what happened with Predator 4k, it wasn't that the 4k was mind blowing or anything but the old blu ray was complete garbage and so it was nice to at least be able to have a solid looking version that didn't feel like an insult to the film the way the old blu ray was.
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Apr 6, 2023 18:25
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zoux posted:I think it was a huge mistake to give him emotions, once you give him his ultimate goal, the character loses its distinctiveness and becomes much less interesting. Spock didn't suddenly get emotions in the movies, it's his lack of emotion and adherence to logic that is so compelling about the character. Same with Data, imo. They should have made Data’s emotions come out naturally through the movies, just as Spock became slightly more Human as the TOS movies went on.
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Apr 6, 2023 18:26
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FlamingLiberal posted:Mods???? Generations makes them feel like real characters. First Contact makes them feel like caricatures. First Contact is a competently shot movie with breezy editing that wallpapers over a lot of the script issues. But these aren't the same people that sat around a poker table at the end of "All Good Things." Also, while Alfre Woodard is a great actor and she plays Lily fine, she was honestly an unnecessary character for the plot and robbed screentime from the rest of the main cast. Beverly should have been the one to talk him down.
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Apr 6, 2023 18:32
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Beverly wouldn't have called him Ahab. But I agree.
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Apr 6, 2023 18:35
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Beverly would never have talked to him like that Even in this current season of Picard when they are finally seeing each other again after she has been absent for a long time, it's nothing like the stuff between Lily and Picard in FC. I think he needs the kick in the pants from someone who is actually willing to do it and can see things as an outsider.
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Apr 6, 2023 18:37
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Pretty sure I've said before that the Lily confrontation scene is one of my favorites in the movie (second only to the 'Greetings!' Data scene that introduces Lily). More than the Borg stuff it's the "thesis statement" of the movie and what it's actually about: Picard's trauma. But I get that it devolves the TNG characters into action heroes. I'm actually coming around to that view more now than I used to.
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Apr 6, 2023 18:37
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Basebf555 posted:This is actually a pretty underrated aspect of the whole 4k UHD thing. Often people don't realize that blu rays weren't created equal, the blu ray era had a ton of stinkers that absolutely were not doing the films justice and in some cases were borderline unwatchable. So there are times where a UHD is about correcting those past mistakes as much as anything else. That's what happened with Predator 4k, it wasn't that the 4k was mind blowing or anything but the old blu ray was complete garbage and so it was nice to at least be able to have a solid looking version that didn't feel like an insult to the film the way the old blu ray was. The industry went through a hot moment when they felt it was necessary to quash film grain with DNR and it just hosed over so many early discs by killing detail. Vudu updated their HD copies of the TOS movies to come from the new masters about a month before the first TOS UHD discs came out and I could tell within 2 minutes past the credits it was such a stark upgrade. That's even more damning since I was comparing a streaming copy to the disc and the streaming copy at the same resolution and a fraction of the bitrate stomped the disc. It still occasionally happens today, but they seem much more willing to let film look like film now. I think by far the worst of the original run was ST:VI. Goddamn that original blu-ray was visual diarrhea.
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Apr 6, 2023 18:39
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:But I get that it devolves the TNG characters into action heroes. I'm actually coming around to that view more now than I used to.
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Apr 6, 2023 18:43
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bull3964 posted:The industry went through a hot moment when they felt it was necessary to quash film grain with DNR and it just hosed over so many early discs by killing detail. Vudu updated their HD copies of the TOS movies to come from the new masters about a month before the first TOS UHD discs came out and I could tell within 2 minutes past the credits or was such a stark upgrade. That's even more damning since I was comparing a streaming copy to the disc and the streaming copy at the same resolution and a fraction of the bitrate stomped the disc. I think part of the shift in attitude is probably due to the gradual move to a more niche market that we've seen with physical media in the past 10-12 years. So the studios/labels putting out these discs understand that the majority of the people buying them are pretty discerning and they know what a movie from before the digital age is supposed to look like. Like you said, at the beginning of blu ray they were I think still concerned with appealing to people who just don't ever want any film grain at all, they want everything to look totally crisp and clean as if it were shot today using today's equipment. Since then though the majority of those people have fallen out of the physical media game altogether and so you don't really have to cater to them anymore.
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Apr 6, 2023 18:44
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Generations has some of the TNG cast’s best acting and I keep waiting for a general reevaluation of the movie to happen because of it. It's absolutely the most TNG of the TNG movies. zoux posted:I think it was a huge mistake to give him emotions, once you give him his ultimate goal, the character loses its distinctiveness and becomes much less interesting. Giving him emotions doesn't mean the quest ends; it's not going to make him instantly understand every cultural behavior and reference, and he'll still need help identifying and coping with all the new feelings and sensations suddenly dumped on him.
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Apr 6, 2023 18:45
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FlamingLiberal posted:Beverly would never have talked to him like that No she wouldn't have. But I've also long gone on record that Picard's character is so loving off the rails in First Contact that it's moot. Honestly, the better character moment would have been Picard not willing to blow up the ship because he wanted to save the assimilated crew members as he was saved. The biggest piece of Picard's trauma with the Borg is not their aggression or Starfleet's capitulation, it was his lack of control over the situation. His inability to prevent the carnage at Wolf 359 (this also bleeds through to the current season of Picard as well.) That he was used for death but he was saved and survived. Imagine, instead of Picard throwing crew members at the Borg like cannon fodder, he gave orders of containment without violence that would harm assimilated crew. The Borg would slowly take over the ship as everyone tries to convince him that they won't be able to save them. That they would probably want to be released from their fate. THEN you could have the emotional breakdown of his guilt over wishing someone had granted him release before Wolf 359 and not feeling worth redemption after his rescue. Nope, instead he goes around murdering former crew members without remorse and then gets pissy about his ship even though blowing it up WOULD ACCOMPLISH THE LINE THAT HE WANTS TO DRAW. It's a poo poo character arc that completely misses the point of his trauma, as well acted as the dialog around it may be.
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Apr 6, 2023 18:52
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Big Mean Jerk posted:They should have made Data’s emotions come out naturally through the movies, just as Spock became slightly more Human as the TOS movies went on. Spiner could've done a great job with small, subtle emotions coming through, but yeah, someone just wanted him to ham it up.
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Apr 6, 2023 18:56
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Picard's the one who was actually in the collective, he knows that he got lucky because of his specific situation, but those other crewmembers were too far gone. I would be more willing to trust him on his actions w/r/t the Borg. Yes, obviously some of his actions were due to trauma, but I don't think it was really unreasonable.
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Apr 6, 2023 18:56
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Basebf555 posted:I think part of the shift in attitude is probably due to the gradual move to a more niche market that we've seen with physical media in the past 10-12 years. So the studios/labels putting out these discs understand that the majority of the people buying them are pretty discerning and they know what a movie from before the digital age is supposed to look like. Like you said, at the beginning of blu ray they were I think still concerned with appealing to people who just don't ever want any film grain at all, they want everything to look totally crisp and clean as if it were shot today using today's equipment. Since then though the majority of those people have fallen out of the physical media game altogether and so you don't really have to cater to them anymore. Well, those same masters are still used for streaming services and digital purchases so it's not like this is a physical media only thing. I think it's more along the lines of them realizing that the people they thought they needed to cater to with smooth video actually don't care that much and the people who do care, care a lot. That and TVs have gotten a lot bigger since blu-ray launched. DNR and edge enhancement is less egregious on a 40" LCD from 2008.
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Apr 6, 2023 18:56
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FlamingLiberal posted:Picard's the one who was actually in the collective, he knows that he got lucky because of his specific situation, but those other crewmembers were too far gone. Except for like the litany of other people who have been assimilated and were extracted or at the very least had individuality restored. Yeah, I know a bunch of those were Voyager which happened after First Contact, but it only serves to age the movie in retrospect. If anything, his special case as Locutus made it MORE difficult to extract him from the collective.
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Apr 6, 2023 19:00
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bull3964 posted:If anything, his special case as Locutus made it MORE difficult to extract him from the collective. Not really: his extraction was just a function of the destruction of the Borg Cube and him therefore being disconnected from any nearby Borg networks. Him being returned to himself was just a side effect of that and that gave them grace to remove the implants while they went dormant. I don't think the Federation has ever shown themselves able to remove someone from the Borg besides 'get them far enough away from any other Borg that the signal is gone or weak enough to jam'. (Or whatever they did that time in Voyager where they prepared them before they got assimilated) MikeJF fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Apr 6, 2023 |
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Apr 6, 2023 19:05
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bull3964 posted:If anything, his special case as Locutus made it MORE difficult to extract him from the collective. and yes, the problem is that Voyager happens and makes it super easy to get people out of the Collective. Like they do it every 3rd episode past Season 4.
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Apr 6, 2023 19:06
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There also some script moments that are chuckle worthy. Like, Worf didn't bother to tell Picard "Oh, by the way, we ran into Beverly and all of the sickbay staff in the 2 minutes we were separated. She's fine but that 20th century person is running around alone." Also, "There's a risk we may hit the main defector and it could destroy half the ship." 5 minutes later proceeds to shoot the main deflector to knock the Borg into space. MikeJF posted:Not really: his extraction was just a function of the destruction of the Borg Cube and him therefore being disconnected from any nearby Borg networks. Him being returned to himself was just a side effect of that and that gave them grace to remove the implants while they went dormant. I don't think the Federation has ever shown themselves able to remove someone from the Borg besides 'get them far enough away from any other Borg that the signal is gone or weak enough to jam'. (Or whatever they did that time in Voyager where they prepared them before they got assimilated) Hugh, Seven, Icheb, the rest of the kids with Icheb. Then there was that whole colony former borg that wanted to form their own collective. Once Voyager started with the Borg, it was open season on if they could be extracted. Crusher even said in best of both worlds that it was just a matter of micro surgery to remove the implants. They just didn't KNOW what would happen if the signal to the collective was blocked so they didn't try. They thought maybe it was similar to the components being removed from downed Borg that caused them to self destruct, but they didn't know for sure. They later block Hugh's signal to the collective without any danger to him. quote:PICARD: He's trying to find an access terminal so he can interface with the collective. He doesn't understand that the signal has been cut off. So, they know a lot from Picard's experience. Laforge is even able to create new brain implants for him. "Descent" is...whatever...as far as an episode goes. "I, Borg" though is a banger that's near the greatness of "Measure of a Man" and I have trouble reconciling Picard backing away from genocide in that episode to whatever's going on in "First Contact." bull3964 fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Apr 6, 2023 |
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Apr 6, 2023 19:13
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:It's absolutely the most TNG of the TNG movies. Well they had him sing goofy songs and say cusses instead of that Did "borg nanoprobes" exist before FC?
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Apr 6, 2023 19:21
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Also, with respect to "First Contact" you can bet that the whispers of the collective Picard hears is going to play a major role in the endgame for Picard Season 3. Jack is hearing them too and it's been implied that Picard's assimilation altered him in a way that might have been passed on to Jack.zoux posted:
Nope, that was basically done to give them a more menacing "Zombie bite" aspect to the movie.
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Apr 6, 2023 19:30
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FlamingLiberal posted:In the sense that they had to work harder, but I think he probably retained more of his individuality than your average drone If I recall, you saw Picard shed a tear as Locutus in Best of Both Worlds, implying he was still in there.
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Apr 6, 2023 20:09
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davidspackage posted:If I recall, you saw Picard shed a tear as Locutus in Best of Both Worlds, implying he was still in there. Yes this did occur.
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Apr 6, 2023 20:17
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Pretty much a staple of all the former drone stuff is that the person is still inside, trapped. Over time the constant chorus of the collective can wear you down mentally and you become dependent on the voices, but assimilation has never been presented as a instant obliteration of one's former identity.
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Apr 6, 2023 20:46
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v_YRe7lht4&t=52s Best scene in the movie.
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Apr 6, 2023 20:48
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Funny how there's a statue for Cochrane, but Lily wasn't shown to be mentioned in history at all. Here she is defending the Phoenix when Cochrane went off to get drunk. She also mentions scrounging up titanium to make the cockpit. She seems to care passionatly about the project when all Cochrane wanted to do is get rich. I'm under no delusion that there was any intentional message in the script related to all that, but it sure is something looking at the movie in 2023. You have a black woman who was willing to die for this project that she plainly poured blood sweat and tears into and the capitalist white guy gets all the historical credit.
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Apr 6, 2023 20:57
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bull3964 posted:Funny how there's a statue for Cochrane, but Lily wasn't shown to be mentioned in history at all. Here she is defending the Phoenix when Cochrane went off to get drunk. She also mentions scrounging up titanium to make the cockpit. She seems to care passionatly about the project when all Cochrane wanted to do is get rich. I mean if Zefram Cochrane is Gene, then it’s completely true to form that Cochrane became a huge legend and innovator and all the people like Lily who actually launched his drunk rear end into orbit were forgotten by history.
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Apr 6, 2023 21:01
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bull3964 posted:Funny how there's a statue for Cochrane, but Lily wasn't shown to be mentioned in history at all. Here she is defending the Phoenix when Cochrane went off to get drunk. She also mentions scrounging up titanium to make the cockpit. She seems to care passionatly about the project when all Cochrane wanted to do is get rich. That's a great point and I'm upset with myself I didn't see it until you mentioned it.
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Apr 6, 2023 21:03
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bull3964 posted:Funny how there's a statue for Cochrane, but Lily wasn't shown to be mentioned in history at all. Here she is defending the Phoenix when Cochrane went off to get drunk. She also mentions scrounging up titanium to make the cockpit. She seems to care passionatly about the project when all Cochrane wanted to do is get rich. Lily doesn't actually end up on the first flight in First Contact, does she? It's been years, but I think it's Cochrane, Riker, LaForge and Troi maybe? So considering that the policy would have been for the Enterprise crew to try and just get themselves out of the historical record as much as possible, Lily not being on the flight might have been an unfortunate consequence that lead to her being forgotten in the historical record.
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Apr 6, 2023 21:04
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Yeah Lily is stuck onboard the Enterprise until just before the final confrontation with the Queen. I don’t think she was ever supposed to be on the Phoenix though, I think she was supposed to be in mission control filling the role that Troi ends up doing.
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Apr 6, 2023 21:07
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Don't forget Cochrane also wanted to be on an island full of naked women. Possibly also like gene? Also, speaking of Hugh, did they ever mention what species he was? When they took some of the borg poo poo off of him, he looked human, but was he actually a human or some other alien species? The El Aurians look an awful lot like humans as do a bunch of other "aliens" throughout trek land/universe for example.
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Apr 6, 2023 21:22
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No Dignity posted:But I maintain watching a show in the resolution it was filmed in isn't the end of the world, it's a 480 show filmed in an era where that was the standard resolution. If you can't appreciate viewing something in it's native conditions that sounds like a 'you' problem Ira Steven Behr, DS9's showrunner for most of it's air time admits that the show looks like poo poo in it's current state. If one of the people largely responsible for the production of the show can't appreciate it's "native" conditions, that sounds like a production problem that needs to be fixed. That DS9 was shot 16x9 safe from season 3 onwards also indicates that the cinematographer shot the show with the expectation that it would be eventually remastered in HD. It's not the only show from that era that did this, X-Files is another example. SCheeseman fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Apr 6, 2023 |
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Apr 6, 2023 21:42
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I thought DS9 looked fine on streaming. Could be better and looked a bit dated film quality-wise, but it wasn't unwatchable
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