(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:lenders. they were lenders. they loaned money. the temples were where the money was kept. and the historical reason to loan money is not to receive the interest. the purpose of lending money is to seize the asset that has been offered as security - land and people. this goes back to ancient sumer. it wasn't considered evil, really, by its nature. they understood that lending had to happen to let society function, but they also understood that, over time, debts tended to exceed the capacity to pay, resulting in an entrenched oligarchy that could threaten the king. thats why there was a periodic policy of "reset," to free people (not the war slaves, not the chattel slaves) and put them back on their land. i knew the temple was the center of commerce and that there was some form of exploitation. i couldn't remember the exact specifics, so thank you.
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Apr 6, 2023 19:10
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| # ? Jun 6, 2024 22:39 |
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:the message of jesus christ was to restore the jubilee year, which was a periodic cancellation of debts and of debt servitude. The Rome-aligned jewish authorities had abolished the right to jubilee by allowing a clause in debt agreements to effectively ignore it. he sought to make a material impact in the here-and-now (or the there-and-then). the shift to the afterlife after his death came out of despair, for enacting such measures in the Roman empire, where debts are sacred, was completely impossible. the christianity that actually became popular and that constantine codifies is the one compatible with the empire, that the lesson that is deemed acceptable is that oh yeah the meek will inherit the earth one day totally, but in the mean time we have these nails so you better shut the gently caress up
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Apr 6, 2023 19:12
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AnimeIsTrash posted:if you have a classless, stateless society do you really think there will be a hole in people's hearts that will need to be filled by religion? marx's whole argument was that religion fills this hole which is created by capitalism, without capitalism that hole wouldn't exist. gonna talk to a pope of hinduism to fix that. Also what is the Bhakti movement lol. The solution is always having a commissar have a hand in making religious decisions so that religion can be suborned to the socialist system.
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Apr 6, 2023 19:29
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Brain Candy posted:the christianity that actually became popular and that constantine codifies is the one compatible with the empire, that the lesson that is deemed acceptable is that oh yeah the meek will inherit the earth one day totally, but in the mean time we have these nails so you better shut the gently caress up the heaven/hell afterlife bullshit is also still pushed really hard also you only go to heaven if you don't burn down private property what a coincidence
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Apr 6, 2023 19:56
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we need a commissar of religion tbh.
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Apr 6, 2023 20:19
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Truga posted:also you only go to heaven if you don't burn down private property what a coincidence Some of those that work forces are the same that wear crosses
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Apr 6, 2023 20:21
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Tankbuster posted:gonna talk to a pope of hinduism to fix that. Also what is the Bhakti movement lol. The solution is always having a commissar have a hand in making religious decisions so that religion can be suborned to the socialist system. ill talk to modi bhai
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Apr 6, 2023 20:23
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Is any of China Mieville's stuff good?
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Apr 6, 2023 21:21
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October is a good and well written history of the revolution, although he does take an interlude chapter out of nowhere to talk about how evil and scary Stalin would become
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Apr 6, 2023 21:33
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yeah i enjoyed the parts of October that weren’t “and it all went wrong under Stalin”
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Apr 6, 2023 21:46
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Is any of China Mieville's stuff good? he's pretty good although he's a caricature of a trotskyist at times, like how his novel about a socialist revolution in a fantasy world ends with the revolution permanently about to happen but never actually happening because that way it remains a beautiful idea and can't be sullied by flaws or mistakes or dirty inconvenient reality
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Apr 6, 2023 21:55
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AnimeIsTrash posted:ill talk to modi bhai modi is so cool, he retroactively made his caste classified as OBC.
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Apr 6, 2023 23:05
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Is any of China Mieville's stuff good? I enjoyed the fiction. I have “between equal rights” on my shelf now, no idea if it will be good
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Apr 7, 2023 07:08
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gradenko_2000 posted:I've been reading "Critique of Maoist Reason" but at something like just ten pages a stretch because hoo boy it's a challenge to mentally digest. I'm having fun though! Hell yeah JMP. That book really made me reflect on LF and the radical overcorrection to MTW. Also MTW as an op to disempower. Also that book plus you fine people got me to read just enough Althusser.
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Apr 7, 2023 07:10
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Sunny Side Up posted:Hell yeah JMP. That book really made me reflect on LF and the radical overcorrection to MTW. Also MTW as an op to disempower. Also that book plus you fine people got me to read just enough Althusser. Just enough Althusser to do what?
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Apr 7, 2023 09:22
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check on the wife!
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Apr 7, 2023 09:24
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mawarannahr posted:Just enough Althusser to do what? LOL I guess not go full Richard Wolff on co-ops and useless poo poo
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Apr 7, 2023 12:47
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Sunny Side Up posted:LOL I guess not go full Richard Wolff on co-ops and useless poo poo Wolff saying that the USSR collapsed because they didn't do coops enough 
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Apr 7, 2023 12:50
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an unpopular opinion in cspam: worker co-ops are pretty much required for the socialist transition imo. the argument that worker co-ops are still beholden to the profit motive has merit, but a worker co-op is also run by the people doing the actual work. that means that many of the exploitative practices currently employed by shareholders are unlikely to find purchase among the decision-making bodies of those enterprises. furthermore, as a worker co-op requires all decision makers to actually work at the enterprise, the accumulation and consolidation of executive authority across multiple enterprises and multiple industries currently enjoyed by the shareholder class (the Real Bourgeoisie™) is impossible. it also dramatically reduces the resources a non-worker can accumulate. these are load-bearing privileges for the capitalist class, the removal of which significantly undermines their power. less resources and executive authority means the capitalist has less leverage in forcing the state to comply with their demands to employ violence to protect capitalist interests. heavy and other critical industries should be the purview of the state, but there's no state worth entrusting them to until the bourgeoisie's grip on said state is weakened. that can only happen by prying open gaps in the symbiotic relations between the two and filling it with worker power, imo.
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Apr 7, 2023 14:29
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croup coughfield posted:an unpopular opinion in cspam: worker co-ops are pretty much required for the socialist transition imo. the argument that worker co-ops are still beholden to the profit motive has merit, but a worker co-op is also run by the people doing the actual work. that means that many of the exploitative practices currently employed by shareholders are unlikely to find purchase among the decision-making bodies of those enterprises. furthermore, as a worker co-op requires all decision makers to actually work at the enterprise, the accumulation and consolidation of executive authority across multiple enterprises and multiple industries currently enjoyed by the shareholder class (the Real Bourgeoisie™) is impossible. it also dramatically reduces the resources a non-worker can accumulate.
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Apr 7, 2023 14:38
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ah gently caress
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Apr 7, 2023 14:38
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worker co-ops are, at the very least, better than the local necessities of socially reproductive labor being handled by freaking small business owners. They seem like a program that is at the very least a way to mobilize your labor for something different than the wage labor relation as it exists in the US. Beyond that idk I haven't thought about it much. Prof Wolff loves them and i love Prof Wolff so they're probably good.
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Apr 7, 2023 15:05
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croup coughfield posted:an unpopular opinion in cspam: worker co-ops are pretty much required for the socialist transition imo tell this to mao
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Apr 7, 2023 15:19
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Brain Candy posted:tell this to mao i called him up and he said im right
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Apr 7, 2023 15:43
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Brain Candy posted:tell this to mao Dogmatism
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Apr 7, 2023 15:44
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he just said brain candy should take another look at the peasant organizations and then he waggled his eyebrows a bunch (we're talking on duo)
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Apr 7, 2023 15:47
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Brain Candy posted:tell this to mao highly local petit-bourgeoisie are one of the classes to be overthrown and the services proletariat are one of the classes to be won over as allies, agitation for worker co-ops to divest resources from the former into the hands of the latter is thoroughly maoist
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Apr 7, 2023 15:48
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while i don't agree with his definition of socialism, i found matt bruenig's exploration of institutional forms pretty thought-provoking. worker co-ops are cool and everything, but you still need to deal with existing capitalist firms. i feel like there's often this caricature idea that workers can just overthrow management like 19th century factory workers or whatever, which doesn't reflect the realities of a financialised economy. the idea of transforming things on the shareholder level (either through nationalisation or some kind of club-funding by organised labour) makes it seem like a more tractable problem to me somehow, idk. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmeIGcI60oc
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Apr 7, 2023 16:06
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croup coughfield posted:he just said brain candy should take another look at the peasant organizations and then he waggled his eyebrows a bunch (we're talking on duo) yes, 'peasant', an incredibly important word to note to contrast to a dust covered menshivic posted:an unpopular opinion in cspam: worker co-ops are pretty much required for the socialist transition imo
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Apr 7, 2023 16:22
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gradenko_2000 posted:Dogmatism it was a counter-example!!!!
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Apr 7, 2023 16:24
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the best thing about talking to chairman mao zedong on google duo is that he always uses that really low old man angle and shouts into the phone but hes doing it ironically
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Apr 7, 2023 16:24
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really funny guy
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Apr 7, 2023 16:25
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atelier morgan posted:highly local petit-bourgeoisie are one of the classes to be overthrown and the services proletariat are one of the classes to be won over as allies, agitation for worker co-ops to divest resources from the former into the hands of the latter is thoroughly maoist worker co-ops are doomed under capitalism like all utopian socialism is doomed. it's the 'just make workers into peasants, simple' line of thought that misses why peasants don't stay peasants
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Apr 7, 2023 16:45
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Brain Candy posted:worker co-ops are doomed under capitalism like all utopian socialism is doomed. it's the 'just make workers into peasants, simple' line of thought that misses why peasants don't stay peasants I think worker co-ops are a helpful additive to a milieu of other worker self organization, in addition to trade unions and communist political parties. Any approach to revolutionary socialism that highlights a single tactic that is going to solve all our problems is of course laughable
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Apr 7, 2023 16:48
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Brain Candy posted:worker co-ops are doomed under capitalism like all utopian socialism is doomed. it's the 'just make workers into peasants, simple' line of thought that misses why peasants don't stay peasants ok. so whats the solution?
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Apr 7, 2023 16:56
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croup coughfield posted:an unpopular opinion in cspam: worker co-ops are pretty much required for the socialist transition imo. the argument that worker co-ops are still beholden to the profit motive has merit in the case of a worker's collective, isn't the character of the "profit motive" fundamentally altered from how it's typically discussed? like there is, of course, surplus value being created, but it isn't extracted by someone and it isn't going anywhere, it either gets reinvested in the business or comes back to the workers, right? I guess I can see an argument that if a worker leaves they surrender the portion of their earnings that had been reinvested into the business, but even so I don't see that as a particularly insightful (or even honest) critique of the thing
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Apr 7, 2023 17:00
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croup coughfield posted:ok. so whats the solution? definitely not some dusty-rear end 19th century answers that didn't make it into the 20th century let alone the 21st
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Apr 7, 2023 17:03
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indigi posted:in the case of a worker's collective, isn't the character of the "profit motive" fundamentally altered from how it's typically discussed? like there is, of course, surplus value being created, but it isn't extracted by someone and it isn't going anywhere, it either gets reinvested in the business or comes back to the workers, right? I guess I can see an argument that if a worker leaves they surrender the portion of their earnings that had been reinvested into the business, but even so I don't see that as a particularly insightful (or even honest) critique of the thing you're absolutely correct in that the form is fundamentally changed from profit back to surplus. i chose my words the way i did because not everyone understands the difference, and "profit" is the sort of common vernacular for maximizing surplus at the expense of social good.
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Apr 7, 2023 17:06
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croup coughfield posted:ok. so whats the solution? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PERMABANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 7, 2023 17:08
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Brain Candy posted:definitely not some dusty-rear end 19th century answers that didn't make it into the 20th century let alone the 21st respectfully, ill be more interested in your input when you've formulated an actual strategy.
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Apr 7, 2023 17:12
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