(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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Brain Candy posted:or rather if the pamplet works it's because the person reading was already primed to believe that their current framing was incorrect and so all they needed was an alternative drat and how do you think they'd be primed to believe their current framing was incorrect?
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Apr 7, 2023 19:53
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| # ? May 24, 2024 04:17 |
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i called the chairman about this and now he's getting engels on the line. we'll see what he has to say
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Apr 7, 2023 20:04
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500 good dogs posted:drat and how do you think they'd be primed to believe their current framing was incorrect? clearly though extensive education, it’s why Kamala Harris is a communist and so is Cramer bitch
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Apr 7, 2023 20:05
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Brain Candy posted:bitch no need to be rude
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Apr 7, 2023 20:05
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croup coughfield posted:no need to be rude he's just signing his post, friend (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 7, 2023 20:07
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imo we should all read nore mao when it comes to raising the consciousness of the masses and providing political education
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Apr 7, 2023 20:08
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Al! posted:imo we should all read nore mao when it comes to raising the consciousness of the masses and providing political education couldnt get through his red book. looks short but the text is pretty small
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Apr 7, 2023 20:14
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heres a good article https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-1/mswv1_10.htm quote:We must lead the peasants' struggle for land and distribute the land to them, heighten their labour enthusiasm and increase agricultural production, safeguard the interests of the workers, establish co-operatives, develop trade with outside areas, and solve the problems facing the masses-- food, shelter and clothing, fuel, rice, cooking oil and salt, sickness and hygiene, and marriage. In shots, all the practical problems in the masses' everyday life should claim our attention. If we attend to these problems, solve them and satisfy the needs of the masses, we shall really become organizers of the well-being of the masses, and they will truly rally round us and give us their warm support. Comrades, will we then be able to arouse them to take part in the revolutionary war? Yes, indeed we will.
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Apr 7, 2023 20:17
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so i guess my next question is what should be done about all the middle class people who, through the uncontrollable vagaries of birth, are intrinsically unable to shed their illusions regarding the nature of class struggle?
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Apr 7, 2023 20:17
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croup coughfield posted:so i guess my next question is what should be done about all the middle class people who, through the uncontrollable vagaries of birth, are intrinsically unable to shed their illusions regarding the nature of class struggle? what we call the middle class in america also have material problems to solve. they have bills to pay, struggle with food insecurity transport etc. even if they think all their problems can be solved by voting for the right guy. what is needed is to nurture dependence on socialist organization and change behavoir towards seeking connection rather than alienation
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Apr 7, 2023 20:23
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croup coughfield posted:so i guess my next question is what should be done about all the middle class people who, through the uncontrollable vagaries of birth, are intrinsically unable to shed their illusions regarding the nature of class struggle? nationwide "barefoot car dealership owners" program
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Apr 7, 2023 20:24
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Al! posted:what we call the middle class in america also have material problems to solve. they have bills to pay, struggle with food insecurity transport etc. even if they think all their problems can be solved by voting for the right guy. what is needed is to nurture dependence on socialist organization and change behavoir towards seeking connection rather than alienation there are a great many social classes that make up what we call the middle class here but a maoist interrogation of american classes is in such a dismal state i'm not familiar with any reasonable list of what the classes even are, much less tactics for each of them i'm certainly not equipped with the organization, perspectives and insights to develop it myself
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Apr 7, 2023 20:34
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Al! posted:what we call the middle class in america also have material problems to solve. they have bills to pay, struggle with food insecurity transport etc. even if they think all their problems can be solved by voting for the right guy. what is needed is to nurture dependence on socialist organization and change behavoir towards seeking connection rather than alienation normally i would agree with you but im hearing thats not possible so im looking at other solutions
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Apr 7, 2023 20:38
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it's looking like the answer is it will be dissolved as conditions worsen so all five of the people left in it can have some kind of special occomodation
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Apr 7, 2023 20:41
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so if we wanted a more proactive solution, it would be to worsen conditions?
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Apr 7, 2023 20:44
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take away their cheeseburgers
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Apr 7, 2023 20:45
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F Stop Fitzgerald posted:take away their cheeseburgers
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Apr 7, 2023 20:48
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i mean if your question is what is to be done about suburbanite petit bourgeoisie they can either submit to reeducation or well whatever the other option would be
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Apr 7, 2023 20:50
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i wonder how things went historically with some other "intractable" classes that simply couldnt be educated or lead into the struggle according to academics, like peasants or the lumpenproletariat. no time to hit the books, though. ive got a full schedule of staring into the sun
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Apr 7, 2023 20:56
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i feel like if mao could identify a dozen classes in revolutionary china we can probably do better than lumping all the american middle classes into 'petit bourgeoisie' and writing them all off
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Apr 7, 2023 20:58
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atelier morgan posted:i feel like if mao could identify a dozen classes in revolutionary china we can probably do better than lumping all the american middle classes into 'petit bourgeoisie' and writing them all off whats kind of getting my goat about this whole thing is that bc started with "tell that to mao" and then proceeded to lay out a bunch of made-up doomer bullshit that mao wouldve beat his fukken rear end for lol
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Apr 7, 2023 21:01
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and no one will tell me how to get the loving money to fund a movement!!
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Apr 7, 2023 21:06
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Al! posted:heres a good article you need a pretty solid base of monetary and manpower support to begin addressing his list of people's needs, even on a neighborhood scale. like yes it's dead on, but a local DSA chapter (not to pick on DSA, they're actually one of the only groups who can even get this far along) doing a canned goods drive or brake light repair once a month - in different parts of the city - doesn't give people enough to rally around getting to the level where communists can do enough good for a voting district to gain its trust and consistent support is the problem at the moment, Mao's advice seems like it's for a party that's already two or three steps further along e: in short, croup coughfield posted:and no one will tell me how to get the loving money to fund a movement!!
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Apr 7, 2023 21:06
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croup coughfield posted:whats kind of getting my goat about this whole thing is that bc started with "tell that to mao" and then proceeded to lay out a bunch of made-up doomer bullshit that mao wouldve beat his fukken rear end for lol bitch
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Apr 7, 2023 21:07
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croup coughfield posted:these are load-bearing privileges for the capitalist class, the removal of which significantly undermines their power. less resources and executive authority means the capitalist has less leverage in forcing the state to comply with their demands to employ violence to protect capitalist interests. been following this convo over the last few pages; you do raise some good points but my main issue is the bolded portion, which is a major deviation from basic Marxist theory, namely that the state exists because of the ruling class and only exists to serve their interests, not the other way around. the latter implies reformism is a viable tactic to establish a socialist state because competing classes have to or even can exert political pressure in order to drive the state towards certain goals serving their interests. obviously we know reformism is a dead end, but moreover that error by eliding the relationship of the state to the dominant class within it actually conveniently avoids a huge flaw in your theory. in reality, if any competition to capital actually somehow gains steam and begins to even benignly compete with capitalist interests (which really means, "exists at all"), the capitalist ruling class would have no need to pressure the state to do anything, the worker coops spreading like wildfire through the country or w/e would have been stamped out without mercy. similarly, if any socialist bloc did exist, it would be undemocratically stripped of legitimacy and all influence as soon as it appeared to gain any sort of meaningful influence over state functions. this is why Lenin promoted political participation as a legitimate political party within the state as only a complementary arm for agitation and not a tactic that would actually bring about the defeat of the bourgeois state through socialist reforms, and that's exactly what happened in the decade prior to the 1917 revolution. robbing trains and banks is a better way to fund your underground revolutionary movement imo. i dont like the idea of moving drugs for the same purpose but that has been the case as well both historically and (i think) still currently by at least one group edit: misread that post that was here lol
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Apr 7, 2023 21:12
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atelier morgan posted:i feel like if mao could identify a dozen classes in revolutionary china we can probably do better than lumping all the american middle classes into 'petit bourgeoisie' and writing them all off a lot of people don't realize this but one of the stars in the PRC's flag represents the national bourgeoisie and in fact its quite likely if mao had written off the petit bourgeoisie similarly to what youre saying, things would have gone a lot worse during the second revolution, if it would've been possible at all
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Apr 7, 2023 21:16
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atelier morgan posted:i feel like if mao could identify a dozen classes in revolutionary china we can probably do better than lumping all the american middle classes into 'petit bourgeoisie' and writing them all off youre right, i was being flippant because of my personal grudge against the suburbs. i accept this criticism, and that i have done wrong and need to make up for it
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Apr 7, 2023 21:24
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Brain Candy posted:bitch lol no hate bro, i still love you. its ok to be wrong sometimes. HiroProtagonist posted:been following this convo over the last few pages; you do raise some good points but my main issue is the bolded portion, which is a major deviation from basic Marxist theory, namely that the state exists because of the ruling class and only exists to serve their interests, not the other way around. the latter implies reformism is a viable tactic to establish a socialist state because competing classes have to or even can exert political pressure in order to drive the state towards certain goals serving their interests. i think there's a misunderstanding here. my point is that we should be using everything in the arsenal to weaken the bourgeoisie in order to seize on their constant crises as opportunities to push them out. the state does exist to enforce class oppression on behalf of the ruling class, its true. but like all systems, it can continue running in some capacity without its original motive force because as soon as a system comes into existence, its primary objective is the reproduction of itself. i think this can be exploited in the interest of a revolution. like, look at blackrock, right? the platonic bourgeois organization. blackrock owns fuckin everything. you look up most publicly owned corporations and you'll very often see 3 names in the top 5-6 of their major shareholders: state street, vanguard, and blackrock. state street is owned by vanguard. vanguard is owned by blackrock. blackrock's chairman, larry fink, is functionally the king of america. he controls it all, everyone's just renting it from him. so when king larry gives a command, more than half the c-suites in the country have to jump, then the rest do it because thats what everyone else is doing. that's a level of coordination i dont believe we're going to be able to overcome without some industrial coordination of our own.
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Apr 7, 2023 21:37
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croup coughfield posted:lol no hate bro, i still love you. its ok to be wrong sometimes. oh same. i hope i'll be this graceful when i'm wrong
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Apr 7, 2023 21:47
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the more i think about it the more i wonder if we are wasting enormous revolutionary potential by worrying about the cities and their suburban enclaves at all. ive lived for years in the urban decay of new york, i grew up in portland and survived its capture by capital, and now i live in a rural "city" of about 20k. what ive learned from living here is that there are already vast mutual aid networks (and not just through churches) and workers who are keystones in the community who could easily become friendly to the revolutionary cause (for example, my workplace is 80%+ unionized) ben shapiro is right, if we want to sieze power in america its not going to be through the liberal mileau of the city. we, as marxists, need to lose our attachment to urbanity if we are going to progress on america
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Apr 7, 2023 22:18
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atelier morgan posted:i feel like if mao could identify a dozen classes in revolutionary china we can probably do better than lumping all the american middle classes into 'petit bourgeoisie' and writing them all off croup coughfield posted:whats kind of getting my goat about this whole thing is that bc started with "tell that to mao" and then proceeded to lay out a bunch of made-up doomer bullshit that mao wouldve beat his fukken rear end for lol what are some good references for how to actually do class analysis ill take my answer of the air thank you
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Apr 7, 2023 22:21
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Al! posted:the more i think about it the more i wonder if we are wasting enormous revolutionary potential by worrying about the cities and their suburban enclaves at all. ive lived for years in the urban decay of new york, i grew up in portland and survived its capture by capital, and now i live in a rural "city" of about 20k. on it boss im getting that farmer pussy on the daily
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Apr 7, 2023 22:22
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Centrist Committee posted:what are some good references for how to actually do class analysis ill take my answer of the air thank you https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-1/mswv1_1.htm
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Apr 7, 2023 22:22
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Centrist Committee posted:what are some good references for how to actually do class analysis ill take my answer of the air thank you income brackets
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Apr 7, 2023 22:22
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Centrist Committee posted:what are some good references for how to actually do class analysis ill take my answer of the air thank you there was an earlier link to mao doing just that. i dont remember if it went to this specifically but its the man himself breaking down the aforementioned classes he's identified in china in 1930. ill be real with you i dont read theory (or in general) all that often and havent in a long time
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Apr 7, 2023 22:26
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croup coughfield posted:whats kind of getting my goat about this whole thing is that bc started with "tell that to mao" and then proceeded to lay out a bunch of made-up doomer bullshit that mao wouldve beat his fukken rear end for lol
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Apr 7, 2023 22:27
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ty croup coughfield posted:there was an earlier link to mao doing just that. i dont remember if it went to this specifically but its the man himself breaking down the aforementioned classes he's identified in china in 1930. ty2 SorePotato posted:income brackets I had tech workers in the final four but they got wrecked this year so my bracket is hosed
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Apr 7, 2023 22:28
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SorePotato posted:income brackets this is unironic btw in a country like the US
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Apr 7, 2023 22:29
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croup coughfield posted:there was an earlier link to mao doing just that. i dont remember if it went to this specifically but its the man himself breaking down the aforementioned classes he's identified in china in 1930. ive read a lot of theory many years ago but luckily ive devoured descartes and dont really need to refer back to specific literature very often
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Apr 7, 2023 22:29
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Also as a latin american, I believe it is important to inform you all that every time someone in the economic core does a maoism third worldism - especially if its a post - a child here gets sick or goes hungry in the same instant
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Apr 7, 2023 22:31
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