(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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indigi posted:I was just JK about defeatism. but it's a sad and confounding issue that nobody really knows how to even attempt to solve in the short to medium terms quote:Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past. The tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living. And just as they seem to be occupied with revolutionizing themselves and things, creating something that did not exist before, precisely in such epochs of revolutionary crisis they anxiously conjure up the spirits of the past to their service, borrowing from them names, battle slogans, and costumes in order to present this new scene in world history in time-honored disguise and borrowed language. same as it ever was. but the corollary of this is no one can see that far into the future, so when you see only darkness, that too is deception. i think of lenin resignedly telling children that maybe they would live see to a revolution you keep doing analysis because it means addressing the situation you find yourself in as contingent and not essential. marxism in one way is having the freedom to conceive of the world in terms of processes instead of the static, dead thing of liberalism. and while that analysis might it inform you that today there's no way in hell the first world is going to rebel while the fruits of empire keep coming in, go read the news. the dollar hegemony is ending
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Apr 8, 2023 21:31
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My interpretation is that you do what you can to be in a position to take action once conditions allow for it, even if you don't have much control over the conditions themselves. The more people have class consciousness, the more organization and solidarity there is, the better positioned we will all be. I don't think it's defeatist to accept that we can't simply will history in a particular direction.
Mechafunkzilla has issued a correction as of 21:54 on Apr 8, 2023 |
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Apr 8, 2023 21:51
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mawarannahr posted:Alternative Hussy my god goth homestuck
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Apr 8, 2023 22:00
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Mechafunkzilla posted:My interpretation is that you do what you can to be in a position to take action once conditions allow for it, even if you don't have much control over the conditions themselves. The more people have class consciousness, the more organization and solidarity there is, the better positioned we will all be. I don't think it's defeatist to accept that we can't simply will history in a particular direction. Also, there's a huge structural positive effect for mobilization in the core. Organization there helps everybody else out here, too: militancy in Western Europe and in North America relieves imperial pressures, which can make just enough different to seize a critical opportunity (after all, it is always good to remember that our cause is the historical cause of humanity after all)
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Apr 8, 2023 23:57
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croup coughfield posted:obviously we need education and to spread class consciousness but that takes money! it all takes money!! did you copy my fundraising pitch
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Apr 9, 2023 03:51
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Ferrinus posted:well i don't know what sakai's ultimate prescriptions or conclusions are but i don't think it's any more defeatist than eg the structural criticisms lenin makes of union struggles in russia. ultimately it's just true that whites workers maintaining their place of privilege within the economic world system is incompatible with white workers winning the fight for socialism. socialism is in fact better than being grandma's favorite toddler, even though it entails doing for yourself certain things that used to get done for you, so the challenge is recognizing this fact and developing the discipline required to eat a short term loss for a long term gain JMP has an extremely brief but cutting critique of MTW and essentially Sakai’s position in “Critique” that Gradenko said they’re reading now iirc. Free on FLP too I think
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Apr 10, 2023 03:11
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mawarannahr posted:Althusser's immense influence on Wolff cannot be overstated. His career was built on it. The following excerpts are from Knowledge and Class: A Marxian Critique of Political Economy (Resnick and Wolff, 1987): Thank you. I agree with the rest of the thread “attack by all possible means” including coops, but like if you try to take more from my reading of Althusser than ISAs/RSAs, it feels like that’s all it’s leading to, not some multi pronged offensive. Anyone have thoughts on the French poo poo that is still freaking popping off? Any 1968 energy?
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Apr 10, 2023 03:15
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I'm reading The Assassination of Julius Caesar and come across Parenti quoting Engels as calling Cicero, "the most contemptible scoundrel in history." The citation for this quote is an article from the Monthly Review called "Was there no superstructure in ancient Rome?" in which the author simply says that Engels said it, without citation - see it here: https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Was+there+no+superstructure+in+ancient+Rome%3F-a08555769 Said it where? Said it to whom? Did Engels write something about Cicero? Why not cite that? Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 has issued a correction as of 05:55 on Apr 10, 2023 |
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Apr 10, 2023 05:50
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I haven't been able to find a primary source for that quote, and Parenti's scholarship in the book is a little spotty. But tbh the main takeaways from the book are 1) historiography in both the ancient and modern world is dominated by a tiny ruling elite so we need to scrutinize the hell out of it and 2) Clodius Did Nothing Wrong
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Apr 10, 2023 19:12
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throwing my full support behind the mob boss
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Apr 10, 2023 19:54
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The mafia is, technically, a community-based alternative power structure
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Apr 10, 2023 19:58
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Mechafunkzilla posted:The mafia is, technically, a community-based alternative power structure i have this argument all the time with a buddy of mine who idolizes the mafia and refuses to accept that the underlying structure of how the mafia operates is identical to the bourgeoisie. the bosses take all the money you make and if you get pissed they kill you.
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Apr 10, 2023 20:03
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croup coughfield posted:i have this argument all the time with a buddy of mine who idolizes the mafia and refuses to accept that the underlying structure of how the mafia operates is identical to the bourgeoisie. the bosses take all the money you make and if you get pissed they kill you. They call themselves businessmen for a reason https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7C_JHwJm1U
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Apr 10, 2023 20:08
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Mr. Lobe posted:They call themselves businessmen for a reason ultimately what i think he really wants is to have a job that's just hanging out with your buddies and playing cards in the back room of a vacuum repair shop. i also would like this.
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Apr 10, 2023 20:35
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https://files.catbox.moe/muqldx.mp4
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Apr 11, 2023 01:46
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this is just national socialism
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Apr 11, 2023 01:49
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one of teh worst things stalin ever did
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Apr 11, 2023 02:11
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some serious reconsiderations about tibet's situation after that oopsie with the dalai lama the cpc: smiles
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Apr 11, 2023 03:28
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people will just handwave it like biden pinching that girls nipple
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Apr 11, 2023 03:37
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The Dalai Lama just being a cute, zany guy for the last 40 years despite yearning to be a theocratic dictator again the whole time sure had been fun
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Apr 11, 2023 07:50
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i laughed out loud at the reveal of which place theyre talking about
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Apr 11, 2023 07:55
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I started The Assassination of Julius Caesar after all the praise it got lately and I can already tell what people meant when they said his research was spotty, he claims Gladiator (2000) was "unencumbered by artistic merit)
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Apr 12, 2023 00:36
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Tankbuster posted:I always found this to be a better example of coops. Even works in le third world so you can't complain about imperial superprofits. Thanks for this valuable example. However, I am pleased that they also do these: 
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Apr 12, 2023 19:31
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maybe it's not the right thread but ive been on baudrillard and benjamin kick and one of the things that comes up is challenges to the dominant culture by creating spaces of new desires and expression. or subverting the symbols and meanings but i think we've seen any attempts are subversion become part of the simulacra itself, absorbed and regurgitated. baudrillard was more pessimistic than debord but "reality" has been even more pessimistic than even baudrillard could have imagined. for example, ostensibly say the internet could have been an subversion or challenge to the dominant culture but was swiftly and easily subsumed into the superstructure as a harmless machine reproducing the dominant culture once more. it seems even subversion of the culture is literally impossible, and it is impossible for alternative cultures to arise as long as the substructure is what it is but the superstructure protects the substructure (capital mode of exchange) from change by molding itself to subsume any vibrations in the system. is there any writing that has taken concepts of debord, baudrillard, benjamin, etc and applied them to a contemporary setting? was baudrillard even wronger than he wrote? is the idea of media, or alternative cultures and idea of subversion completely dead?
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Apr 12, 2023 23:06
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i guess bifo is a bit like that and discusses those authors, however idk if poetry and dance are going to cut it
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Apr 12, 2023 23:10
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Xaris posted:maybe it's not the right thread but ive been on baudrillard and benjamin kick and one of the things that comes up is challenges to the dominant culture by creating spaces of new desires and expression. or subverting the symbols and meanings but i think we've seen any attempts are subversion become part of the simulacra itself, absorbed and regurgitated. baudrillard was more pessimistic than debord but "reality" has been even more pessimistic than even baudrillard could have imagined. for example, ostensibly say the internet could have been an subversion or challenge to the dominant culture but was swiftly and easily subsumed into the superstructure as a harmless machine reproducing the dominant culture once more. I don't think it's that the idea of subversion is dead, but that it can't be only an aesthetic subversion (which is kind of what Benjamin wrote about). It has to be formally subversive -- involve a new way of being and experiencing -- rather than thematically or intellectually subversive. A genuinely subversive movement or subculture will probably not think of itself in terms of being subversive, because that would mean it's still locating itself and deriving meaning from within a hegemonic framework. I think Zizek touches on this, but the problem raised is that you can't create such a thing with any kind of intentionality, because the starting point of that will always be within the bounds of ideology. Mechafunkzilla has issued a correction as of 23:18 on Apr 12, 2023 |
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Apr 12, 2023 23:16
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i havent read the things you're talking about but supremacy over "the culture", the tendency of the system to culturally absorb threats like white blood cells, is predicated on the system having the power and the resources to do so imo. its easy to have a big mouth that drowns out everything else when you have the cash for it. something to be excited about, however, is that the economic base for this is currently calving like an iceberg.
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Apr 12, 2023 23:19
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mawarannahr posted:i guess bifo is a bit like that and discusses those authors, however idk if poetry and dance are going to cut it Mechafunkzilla posted:I don't think it's that the idea of subversion is dead, but that it can't be only an aesthetic subversion (which is kind of what Benjamin wrote about). It has to be formally subversive -- involve a new way of being and experiencing -- rather than thematically or intellectually subversive. A genuinely subversive movement or subculture will probably not think of itself in terms of being subversive, because that would mean it's still locating itself and deriving meaning from within a hegemonic framework. I think Zizek touches on this, but the problem raised is that you can't create such a thing with any kind of intentionality, because the starting point of that will always be within the bounds of ideology. so if such a thing can't be created with intentionality, and that sounds right that it can't, is it even possible to envision what a new way of being and experiencing would even look that's created unintentionally because we're so constrained within ideology? or can that only be a hypothetical spontaneous event like speculating what lifeform of aliens could show up? isn't it possible there's some biological-psychic and cultural-memory limitations to humans that also is bounded in a way that correlates with the bounds of ideology? although that's probably a bad route to go down
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Apr 12, 2023 23:31
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Xaris posted:okay yeah that's a good point. Well, the cultural materialism lens would say that it will arise organically out of changing material and social conditions. Which is endlessly frustrating to the internalized liberal ideology that's always telling us we should be agentic and purposeful (even when trying to undermine liberalism!). I think of something like trans identity as being genuinely subversive. Obviously trans people aren't trying to be subversive, they are just being their authentic selves, but it is a way of being that undermines not only hegemonic culture around gender in particular, but the way that capitalism and the Sate depend on concrete identity and demographic classification to function (whether it's to function bureaucratically, to sell things to us, or to convert us into commodities as data etc.). The existence of trans identity highlights the contradictions and arbitrariness of the cultural construct of gender -- that's subversive. It's also why you see such a violent cultural reaction to their mere existence. Xaris posted:sounds good, what bifo should I read? bifo deez nuts lmao Mechafunkzilla has issued a correction as of 02:10 on Apr 13, 2023 |
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Apr 12, 2023 23:44
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Well, the cultural materialism lens would say that it will arise organically out of changing material and social conditions. Which is endlessly frustrating the internalized liberal ideology that's always telling us we should be agentic and purposeful (even when trying to undermine liberalism!).
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Apr 13, 2023 00:14
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Xaris posted:but the cultural reaction seems to be also commoditized, and increasingly commoditized, and if the derivative is commoditized so should the underlying equation. trans identity becomes a symbol and signifier associated with consumption, another market to exploit, a new frontier to colonize. it may be initially subversive but it's also eventually subservient to the system, is it not? i think another prior case that plays out almost identically was homosexuality with very nearly the same route, and too shall trans identity which even seems to be underway. Sure, there will always be that ideological machinery, taking the subversive thing and absorbing it (in the context of capitalism, this happens through processes like commodification). The more genuinely subversive the thing the more dominant ideology will have to contort for the sake of recuperation, changing in the process. That's what makes it subversive. Under the right conditions, hegemony fails to incorporate the subversive element and is instead destroyed or supplanted by it. You can really only see those processes historically, though -- in the present you only have the ideas and cultural elements that may or may not become incorporated into ideology. With the example of homosexuality, it is now normative in a way that it was once not, but the process of becoming normative surely involved a shift in the cultural discourse on things like love, the role of state, family, child care, etc. Mechafunkzilla has issued a correction as of 00:44 on Apr 13, 2023 |
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Apr 13, 2023 00:26
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Mechafunkzilla posted:because the starting point of that will always be within the bounds of ideology. ive always wondered where to start with ideology, like i know gramsci is a thing but the notebooks are huge. and zizek gets mentioned a lot but the dude has a huge body of work. im just looking for a place to start
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Apr 13, 2023 01:14
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Centrist Committee posted:ive always wondered where to start with ideology, like i know gramsci is a thing but the notebooks are huge. and zizek gets mentioned a lot but the dude has a huge body of work. im just looking for a place to start Zizek’s The Sublime Object of Ideology is the place to go if you want to dig in what all these socialist philosophers and thinkers of today talk about the topic. Since it’s one of his books that are “serious” in advancement of philosophy, it has quite a lot to unpack, but it’s so constructive that any other contemporary read becomes much better to follow.
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Apr 13, 2023 01:36
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e: ^  Centrist Committee posted:ive always wondered where to start with ideology, like i know gramsci is a thing but the notebooks are huge. and zizek gets mentioned a lot but the dude has a huge body of work. im just looking for a place to start I wouldn't read Gramsci without, like, a reading group. I'd start with the first two chapters of Capital Vol. 1, then Althusser's "Ideology and Ideological State Apparatuses", which should provide a decent enough foundation for Zizek's book The Sublime Object of Ideology. Mechafunkzilla has issued a correction as of 01:42 on Apr 13, 2023 |
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Apr 13, 2023 01:40
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Mechafunkzilla posted:e: ^ dead gay comedy forums posted:Zizek’s The Sublime Object of Ideology is the place to go if you want to dig in what all these socialist philosophers and thinkers of today talk about the topic. Since it’s one of his books that are “serious” in advancement of philosophy, it has quite a lot to unpack, but it’s so constructive that any other contemporary read becomes much better to follow. this is great, I’ve heard of both and I think im ready for them
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Apr 13, 2023 01:58
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i like raymond williams' work on cultural change. stuart hall is cool too, tho quite focused on media.
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Apr 13, 2023 06:27
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everytime zizek tricks someone into reading something of his he gets to have an extra hot dog
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Apr 13, 2023 07:21
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the bitcoin of weed posted:something like 90% of the communists i know irl are autistic or have adhd or some other brain problem so i assume that must help We haven't officially determined this but I'd estimate at least 75% of my comrades are neurodivergent.
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Apr 13, 2023 07:30
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Cuttlefush posted:everytime zizek tricks someone If you can get Zizek to say his name backwards it sends him back
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Apr 13, 2023 07:30
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Ranter posted:We haven't officially determined this but I'd estimate at least 75% of my comrades are neurodivergent. you need to be mentally deficient to believe the silly idea that capitalism is bad.
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Apr 13, 2023 07:36
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