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DarkCrawler posted:If this isn't attempted murder.... Castle Doctrine
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Apr 17, 2023 10:12
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DarkCrawler posted:Is there any country where this has had an any sort of positive effect on democracy? Especially in the case of United States I seem to recall plenty of times it was used to prevent democracy, by preventing some representatives from being present by tricks or physical force. I really don't personally give a poo poo where the voting happens as opposed to how they vote. Yep, it's some absolutely backwards poo poo that does nothing but cause delays and enable all kinds of anti-democratic bullshit, all in the name of what amounts to legislative theatre, on top of presenting a barrier to entry favouring wealthy candidates who can afford the convenience of travel even more. It sure as gently caress hasn't stopped all these 80s Politburo levels of gerontocratic shenanigans.
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Apr 17, 2023 10:16
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...it's literally stopping it right now, that's why its a topic of conversation. it's forcing McConnell and Feinstein out.
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Apr 17, 2023 10:17
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:...it's literally stopping it right now, that's why its a topic of conversation. it's forcing McConnell and Feinstein out. Uh, stopping what exactly? Is there a positive effect on American democracy when you have to be seriously injured or a demented vegetable to be maybe carted out of politics because you can't make it to a particular room?
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Apr 17, 2023 13:13
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Woah, nobody said anything about making them draw a clock
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Apr 17, 2023 13:19
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DarkCrawler posted:Uh, stopping what exactly? Is there a positive effect on American democracy when you have to be seriously injured or a demented vegetable to be maybe carted out of politics because you can't make it to a particular room? this is so weird. do you *actually* prefer the alternative of Feinstein('s aides) continuing to vote for her remotely?
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Apr 17, 2023 13:38
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E: need a minute to rethink my position
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Apr 17, 2023 13:49
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Jaxyon posted:Castle Doctrine There is a very large demonstration right outside the shooter's home and they aren't going anywhere until he's charged.
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Apr 17, 2023 14:04
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:this is so weird. do you *actually* prefer the alternative of Feinstein('s aides) continuing to vote for her remotely? I think that Feinstein should step down because she's clearly not mentally capable of serving, not because she's not physically present. It's a separate but related issue.
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Apr 17, 2023 14:19
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Fister Roboto posted:Honestly it's kind of silly that representatives have to be physically present in the capitol to vote. Seems like maybe our government should consider taking this newfangled invention of instantaneous global communication into account. Filibusters would probably be even worse than they already are if senators could do them from the comfort of their own homes. Forcing legislators to go through the inconvenience of having to actually travel to the Capitol to vote in person makes it more inconvenient to go loving around and playing games with votes.
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Apr 17, 2023 14:22
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Main Paineframe posted:Filibusters would probably be even worse than they already are if senators could do them from the comfort of their own homes. Forcing legislators to go through the inconvenience of having to actually travel to the Capitol to vote in person makes it more inconvenient to go loving around and playing games with votes. Senators pinching a loaf on their own toilet as they are filibustering.
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Apr 17, 2023 14:30
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Who undeservedly is absent from Congress right now so that it is undemocratic? Who’s rights are oppressed? Also they get paid. A decent salary too, enough to live in DC. If counterbalance is Feinstein’s aides voting for her, I wanna know what we gain from it. Also where is this common? It’s pretty common for legislatures to require attendance, but many do allow voting ”remotely” from their office within the building.
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Apr 17, 2023 14:39
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nerox posted:Senators pinching a loaf on their own toilet as they are filibustering. What like what happened during Supreme Court oral arguments in 2020?
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Apr 17, 2023 14:41
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DarkCrawler posted:Uh, stopping what exactly? Is there a positive effect on American democracy when you have to be seriously injured or a demented vegetable to be maybe carted out of politics because you can't make it to a particular room? Its currently preventing the work of the Judiciary committee. I understand that it might be considered ableist that Senator Feinstein should be required to attend Senate sessions, but at a certain point people are just not able to perform a given task. For a lot of jobs this isn't as important, but Senator Feinstein is one of 100 people in the country in the Senate. Her influence is outsized, and her responsibilities and obligations are as well. She needs to resign immediately. https://www.axios.com/2023/04/12/dianne-feinstein-resign-absence-judges Edit: Senator Feinstein is just continuing the long tradition of people refusing to retire and pass on power because they believe in there importance.
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Apr 17, 2023 14:43
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Vahakyla posted:Who undeservedly is absent from Congress right now so that it is undemocratic? Who’s rights are oppressed? Senators aides have been Weekend at Bernies’ing votes for decades. See Thurmond, Strom for the most egregious example. Being in person does nothing to stop this.
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Apr 17, 2023 14:43
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Oracle posted:Senators aides have been Weekend at Bernies’ing votes for decades. See Thurmond, Strom for the most egregious example. Being in person does nothing to stop this. Does nothing? Come on. It helps a gently caress ton. Thirmond is long gone, and beyond Feinstein there aren’t other contenders right now for that. Maybe Grassley. If they can vote remotely less senators will decline to run to keep the grift going.
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Apr 17, 2023 14:45
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Vahakyla posted:Who undeservedly is absent from Congress right now so that it is undemocratic? Who’s rights are oppressed? For the house at least, one gain from it would be the ability to return a congressional house district back to a size that actually means your representative is, well, representative of you and your area. Not you and the gerrymandered bullshit map of your 699,999 closest friends. Not that that is going to be allowed to happen at all because "gently caress you" from those in power now, but in theory expanding the house of representatives hugely is a good thing and at some point it would be too many people to fit in one building.
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Apr 17, 2023 14:52
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:this is so weird. do you *actually* prefer the alternative of Feinstein('s aides) continuing to vote for her remotely? Vahakyla posted:If counterbalance is Feinstein’s aides voting for her, I wanna know what we gain from it. Responding to both of these, if Feinstein could "work from home" then the Democrats would be able to appoint several liberal judges, while if this situation continues indefinitely, the Republicans could eventually take power in that committee and appoint reactionary ghouls instead. So obviously it is preferable that Feinstein gets a WFH exemption or whatever other legal fiction enables her political machine to function. The problem with politicians is that they vote on behalf of their greatest campaign donors, that's always true and doesn't change whether they're voting in DC, at home, whether it's really them voting or an employee of theirs voting, whatever. Seems to me that the best way to play it is "exploit the rules to make voting maximally inconvenient for your enemies and maximally convenient for yourself and your allies" and maybe "accept deals that make voting easier for everyone, as this simplifies the political process and makes it easier for normal busy people to see how they're getting rooked and why."
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Apr 17, 2023 15:13
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Saying that we need to let people do everything remotely is basically saying "well if we make them come in then it will just be a tool to obstruct". The problem is they will do that anyways, oops I don't have cell coverage, sorry I didn't know the vote was taking place, etc etc. My main argument for making people physically be in a chamber to vote is that it makes it harder for an elected official to treat the office like a side hustle.
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Apr 17, 2023 15:26
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cr0y posted:My main argument for making people physically be in a chamber to vote is that it makes it harder for an elected official to treat the office like a side hustle. Why is this good?
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Apr 17, 2023 15:46
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bird food bathtub posted:For the house at least, one gain from it would be the ability to return a congressional house district back to a size that actually means your representative is, well, representative of you and your area. Not you and the gerrymandered bullshit map of your 699,999 closest friends. Not that that is going to be allowed to happen at all because "gently caress you" from those in power now, but in theory expanding the house of representatives hugely is a good thing and at some point it would be too many people to fit in one building. We're so far away from having too many representatives to fit into a building that it's an entirely moot hypothetical. It's something to think about when the new Legislative Stadium starts getting cramped.
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Apr 17, 2023 15:51
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Gyges posted:We're so far away from having too many representatives to fit into a building that it's an entirely moot hypothetical. It's something to think about when the new Legislative Stadium starts getting cramped. I, of course, grant that 'much higher likelihood' is a comparative statement. On the bigger scale outside of that comparison either approach is on the level of wishing for ice cream making GBS threads unicorns.
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Apr 17, 2023 16:03
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Why not just upload their souls to a computer and let AI handle legislation?
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Apr 17, 2023 16:12
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Why is this good? Is there a good reason elected official should be treated like a side hustle?
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Apr 17, 2023 16:16
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Nenonen posted:Why not just upload their souls to a computer and let AI handle legislation? We ran into the issue that too many of our legislators are soulless.
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Apr 17, 2023 16:19
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Without changing the current seating, just incorporating the gallery as is, we could expand the number of Representatives by around 500. If we can then just look at rearranging seats to better utilize the space, we just need come up with another 190 seats to expand the number of Representatives to the point where even Wyoming gets 2 reps. Even without constructing new buildings we're a long way from running out of room to fit more assholes of democracy into our system.
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Apr 17, 2023 16:20
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Oxyclean posted:Is there a good reason elected official should be treated like a side hustle? I feel like for state legislatures it's definitely more valuable to have remote options, since many state legislators are effectively part-timers, and some are practically volunteers from my understanding. It would make it easier for those who aren't already rich business owners to take those positions on. At the national level, sure, they're making a decent salary and I don't see as much need to fight about that side of things. Edit: VV I figured, just thought state/local would be worth bringing up as an additional point here VV Lager fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Apr 17, 2023 |
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Apr 17, 2023 16:21
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Why is this good? Because United States Senator is not driving for Uber when you have some free time, it is literally their full-time job and are being paid several hundred thousand dollars to do it. I'm really not sure why this would be a controversial opinion. E: ^ I am talking about US house/senate just to be clear, state/local is another can of worms
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Apr 17, 2023 16:22
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Responding to both of these, if Feinstein could "work from home" then the Democrats would be able to appoint several liberal judges, while if this situation continues indefinitely, the Republicans could eventually take power in that committee and appoint reactionary ghouls instead. So obviously it is preferable that Feinstein gets a WFH exemption or whatever other legal fiction enables her political machine to function. The contemporary judiciary committee aspect of this argument, at least, may become moot shortly, as Feinstein has asked to be removed from the committee until she returns to DC. quote:“I understand that my absence could delay the important work of the Judiciary Committee,” Ms. Feinstein said in a statement on Wednesday night, after two House Democrats publicly called on her to leave the Senate. “So I’ve asked Leader Schumer to ask the Senate to allow another Democratic senator to temporarily serve until I’m able to resume my committee work.” Of course, it wouldn't be the Senate without taking the chance of minority-induced paralysis for no good reason: quote:Replacing Ms. Feinstein on the committee would require Democrats to pass a resolution, which would need some degree of bipartisan support — either the unanimous consent of the Senate or 60 votes. It is not clear whether Republicans, who want to hold up President Biden’s judicial nominations, would support such a measure. Greatest deliberative body in the world
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Apr 17, 2023 16:28
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Oxyclean posted:Is there a good reason elected official should be treated like a side hustle? I don't see the difference either way - the vast majority aren't responsive to me at all, they work for their donors, so why should I care if they do it with gusto or half-rear end it? As for the ones who *are* responsive to me, their responsiveness to me necessarily means I already have a mechanism to address any malfeasance, I don't have to have them written up for violating HR policy. cr0y posted:Because United States Senator is not driving for Uber when you have some free time, it is literally their full-time job and are being paid several hundred thousand dollars to do it. This is how I would feel if my coworkers were acting like this, or someone hired to provide me a service, but Mitch McConnell and Diane Feinstein aren't either of those unless you are wildly politically naive. They both work for political machines which are totally apathetic to my welfare and unresponsive to my interests. Why should I care on principle if they are good or bad at their jobs, or if their effort corresponds to their compensation? I don't immediately care if some exec at Uber is slacking off, why is this situation different? Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Apr 17, 2023 |
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Apr 17, 2023 16:34
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cr0y posted:E: ^ I am talking about US house/senate just to be clear, state/local is another can of worms https://www.ncsl.org/about-state-legislatures/2022-legislator-compensation States under $30k: Arizona: 24k Connecticut: 28k Florida: 29k George: 17k Idaho: 18k Indiana: 29k Iowa: 25k Louisiana: 17k Maine: 26k Missippi: 23k Nebraska: 12k North Carolina: 14k Rhoe Island: 17k South Carolina: 10k South Dakota: 14k Tennessee: 24k Texas: 7k Virginia: 18k West Virginia: 20k New Hampshire: $100 (lol. I still applaud NH's state government for having 1 legislator per 3k residents - which means their house is nearly the size of the US house; it makes having it a volunteer position a bit more tenable.) North Dakota: 500/wk while in session Vermont: 750/wk while in session Those are basically minor league baseball player salaries. Wyoming, Utah, Nevada, Montana, New Mexico, Kansas and Kentucky appear to pay legislators like substitute teachers (per day, and a pittance.) That's 30 states who say legislating is a minimum wage job or even less. States that actually pay decently well (>60k): California: 119k Hawaii: 62k Illinois: 71k Massachusetts: 71k Michigan: 72k New York: 110k Ohio: 69k (Nice.) Pennsylvania: 95k DC (Councilmember): $153k I imagine a lot of legislators in those states are still treating the job like a side hustle, though.
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Apr 17, 2023 16:42
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Approximately 100% of legislators treat the legislation job itself as a side hustle because it's necessarily overshadowed by the task of raising money for the next campaign or setting up whatever income flow the legislator will enjoy after leaving elected office.
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Apr 17, 2023 16:53
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cr0y posted:Because United States Senator is not driving for Uber when you have some free time, it is literally their full-time job and are being paid several hundred thousand dollars to do it. https://lailluminator.com/2023/03/21/proposal-would-give-louisiana-lawmakers-their-first-raise-in-four-decades/ Local too. This is legit good. As poo poo as they are, and gently caress most of this state’s government outside this city, Id rather my legislators be full time than part time And given all but 2 of the state reps from here are blue, I’m happy to have them get paid more than necessary if it stops the state from making it illegal to be trans or vote left or ride a bicycle Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Apr 17, 2023 |
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Apr 17, 2023 16:53
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Approximately 100% of legislators treat the legislation job itself as a side hustle because it's necessarily overshadowed by the task of raising money for the next campaign or setting up whatever income flow the legislator will enjoy after leaving elected office. This point is pretty nihilistic, so a nihilistic response would be that there is a continuum of donors that politicians have, and some donors have interests that align more with mine. I'd rather someone listen to George Soros than Harlan Crow. I actually agree with you that politicians don't represent me very well at all, but we should work within a system while trying to change it as well.
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Apr 17, 2023 16:59
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gurragadon posted:This point is pretty nihilistic Not at all. I said elected officials chase campaign donations all day, not that life lacks intrinsic meaning. I think the right word for both the point I make above and the one you make below is "realist." gurragadon posted:there is a continuum of donors that politicians have, and some donors have interests that align more with mine. I'd rather someone listen to George Soros than Harlan Crow. I actually agree with you that politicians don't represent me very well at all, but we should work within a system while trying to change it as well. Agreed, but unclear how this pertains to the question of how American politics would be affected by letting legislators vote remotely. If George Soros or any other Mr. Moneybags isn't happy with his sponsored legislator's job performance, Lord knows he has the tools to address it Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Apr 17, 2023 |
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Apr 17, 2023 17:09
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Not at all. I said elected officials chase campaign donations all day, not that life lacks intrinsic meaning. My point was that because some donors are more aligned with what I think, I want the legislators in congress full time to listen to people who are aligned with me. Senator Feinstein cannot perform her job unless she is both present in Washington and her home state of California throughout the year. It's just important that politicians make personal connections and are physically present to represent their constituents. The job of Senator is more important than any one person. I mean it seemed like the conversation was both about remotely working and also part time working so Im sorry if I misread your main point or read into it what wasn't there. gurragadon fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Apr 17, 2023 |
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Apr 17, 2023 17:15
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gurragadon posted:My point was that because some donors are more aligned with what I think, I want the legislators in congress full time to listen to people who are aligned with me. It seems like you're saying more meetings with donors is intrinsically better than fewer meetings with donors because some of those donors better represent your politics than other donors. Do I have that right? If so I find it totally illogical. There is no reason to think "more meetings with donors => better/more progressive politics." Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Apr 17, 2023 |
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Apr 17, 2023 17:26
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^^^ I... really don't think that's what they're saying, but I'll let them answer.Civilized Fishbot posted:If George Soros or any other Mr. Moneybags isn't happy with his sponsored legislator's job performance, Lord knows he has the tools to address it We are not yet at a point in this country where the actual primaries and elections are irrelevant, and voters can still tell the ivory tower crowd to shove it if they're in strong enough agreement.
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Apr 17, 2023 17:26
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Mellow Seas posted:^^^ I... really don't think that's what they're saying, but I'll let them answer. To me it's the only straightforward parsing of what they said: "because some donors are more aligned with what I think, I want the legislators in congress full time to listen to people who are aligned with me." Some - not even "most," just "some." But because SOME donors exist who are MORE aligned with what the poster thinks than other donors the poster wants legislators in Congress full time, "to listen" to donors more. What's the other reading? quote:I dunno, one of our two political parties is currently completely out of the hands of its wealthy donor base . If the Republican party were truly "completely out of the hands of its wealthy donor base" it would no longer have a wealthy donor base.
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Apr 17, 2023 17:31
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Civilized Fishbot posted:It seems like you're saying more meetings with donors is intrinsically better than fewer meetings with donors because some of those donors better represent your politics than other donors. Do I have that right? If so I find it totally illogical. I'm not saying that its an A to B kind of thing in logic. My point is coming from my misreading on the discussion of part time workers. I believe that a Senator who performs there job full time has more experience and knowledge of being a Senator than one who does it part time. I want Senators to take there job seriously enough to be there full time. The donor talk was just a response to you saying that they only listen to donors, I agree like I said but I want them to listen to people. Thats there job. Maybe I am missing something in my thinking or mixing up two thoughts into one?
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Apr 17, 2023 17:34
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