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Beachcomber posted:Ripley shaves her head in Alien3, so maybe it's like a reverse Growing the Beard situation? The Important Haircut is a trope from time immemorial: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ImportantHaircut
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Apr 20, 2023 19:20
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Toshimo posted:The Important Haircut is a trope from time immemorial: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ImportantHaircut Well I meant specifically aligned with a meta drop in quality of the series. I haven't actually seen Xena so I don't know about that, and I know that Alien3 was shafted by the executives. I was that kid who insisted on being a stickler to the actual mythology, which Xena obviously didn't. If I had a time machine I'd beat it into my younger self that they're going to have way more fun once they stop taking themselves so seriously.
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Apr 20, 2023 19:28
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please do not drag in the  site, tia
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Apr 20, 2023 19:34
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the what site
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Apr 20, 2023 19:48
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Stonehouse Beach posted:I remember an ep that was a Groundhog Day-style time loop, and since everything will get undone without consequence anyway, one loop Xena straight-up murders Ted Raimi so she can sleep that episode was awesome and one of my favorites HopperUK posted:The only specific Xena ep I remember is where they stopped at an inn and someone was murdered and it was like a mystery episode. Autolycus was there and somebody tried to say he'd done it, and their evidence was 'he was stealing from the dead guy's room'. And his defense was 'yeah of course I was?' this one on the other hand, sucked butts sadly the_steve posted:More of a "the woman cutting her hair is symbolic of personal character growth/claiming her agency and now she is ready to be a fighter instead of a weak and ineffectual sidekick/damsel in distress" trope. eh i agree with you that's when the show fell off, but gabrielle proved herself to be a capable fighter that didn't need xena to save her long before that happened. Asterite34 posted:Ares gets a bad rep, but I always liked him as low-key the least misogynistic male Olympian. I've never found a myth involving him raping anyone (which is pretty goddamn novel among this pantheon), he's a huge momma's boy to Hera, all his most notable kids are daughters on whom he dotes constantly, even Aphrodite likes him. hmm...i do have to ask if there's any evidence of this? from the greek myths that i read growing up, it seemed pretty clear that pretty much all the gods committed rape, including the so-called 'good' ones like apollo and hermes. and in the Aenead, after ares was injured by diomedes and went crying to zeus about it, zeus showed contempt for him saying that he was his least favorite god because all he cared about was wanton violence. and considering how much raping zeus himself did, if someone like that thinks YOU'RE hosed up, then...
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Apr 20, 2023 20:03
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Tweak posted:the what site I believe they've cleaned it up a lot, but it once got removed from Google search results because they simply could not stop talking about/posting screenshots of anime kiddie porn.
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Apr 20, 2023 20:05
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Holy poo poo I've known about that website for years and I didn't know that.
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Apr 20, 2023 20:08
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IIRC the main issue was the "tropers tales" sections where users could use their own personal anecdotes as examples of a trope, and it got real gross they eventually purged that whole subsection
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Apr 20, 2023 20:13
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Yeah dark secret about media-related anything: if you don't curate it hard eventually the anime kiddie porn and furry kiddie porn substrates-- distinct but with significant overlap-- can and will form a vile crust on whatever it is you're doing.
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Apr 20, 2023 21:16
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GreenMetalSun posted:I believe they've cleaned it up a lot, but it once got removed from Google search results because they simply could not stop talking about/posting screenshots of anime kiddie porn. IIRC Something Awful had a major part in getting TVT removed from Google Ads for a while. There used to be a major thread in this subforum about gross TVT poo poo.
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Apr 20, 2023 21:54
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TvTropes started purging that stuff in 2012. Some of it skated and there's always a bit creeping up and getting added before an admin deletes it, but the "troper tales" era of that site has been gone for a decade. Now it's mostly the kinds of people who love CinemaSins and think fanfiction is serious high art.
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Apr 20, 2023 22:54
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Mr Interweb posted:hmm...i do have to ask if there's any evidence of this? from the greek myths that i read growing up, it seemed pretty clear that pretty much all the gods committed rape, including the so-called 'good' ones like apollo and hermes. and in the Aenead, after ares was injured by diomedes and went crying to zeus about it, zeus showed contempt for him saying that he was his least favorite god because all he cared about was wanton violence. and considering how much raping zeus himself did, if someone like that thinks YOU'RE hosed up, then... I know absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, especially in source materials this old, and it's definitely possible there's some random myth involving Ares doing gross sexual assault poo poo that I just don't personally know about, but if it happened it wasn't notable enough to make it into the more well-known "canon" we have available today. I'm pretty sure there's more extant myths about Ares killing rapists than being one
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Apr 20, 2023 22:55
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pentyne posted:TvTropes started purging that stuff in 2012. Some of it skated and there's always a bit creeping up and getting added before an admin deletes it, but the "troper tales" era of that site has been gone for a decade. I like CienmaSins but hate fanfiction, what am I!? More seriously to your point, TV Tropes biggest problem is that anything creative is noteworthy, so fanfiction of any kind counts and yeesh at some point, no.
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Apr 20, 2023 23:02
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I simply do not click on the fanfiction/webcomic links.
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Apr 20, 2023 23:02
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Most of the city states had patron gods and their local stories put them as chief protagonist. As mentioned Athena was Athens, Sparta had Ares and Olympia had Zeus for just a few examples. Toshimo posted:The Important Haircut is a trope from time immemorial: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ImportantHaircut Speaking about Important Haircuts and Spartans, they were super proud of their long hair and used to style it before battle and decorate it with ornaments quote:In the earliest times the Greeks wore their κόμη (hair of the head) long, and thus Homer constantly calls them κᾰρηκομόωντες (long-haired). I wonder if any of the chuds who decorate their trucks with MOLON LABE decals realise that their beloved Spartan warriors spent hours before battle tying up their hair into man buns and decorating it with scrunchies and hair clips. 
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Apr 21, 2023 00:20
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Asterite34 posted:I know absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, especially in source materials this old, and it's definitely possible there's some random myth involving Ares doing gross sexual assault poo poo that I just don't personally know about, but if it happened it wasn't notable enough to make it into the more well-known "canon" we have available today. It's more that Ares is associated with other crimes, ones that typically don't really involve women. He's the divinity associated with the inexplicable forces that orbit war, the god of soldiers breaking rank to steal the armor off of fallen foes rather than pursue the retreat, the god of stabbing a dead man over and over again because you've had a psychotic break. He's the force that men felt when joining battle, when rationality deserted them and greed, terror, hatred, and other emotions—emotions the Greeks generally didn't see conducive to actually winning battles—took over. When Diomedes wounds Ares, he catches him in the midst of looting a dead man's body. He's not a god any of the Greeks held in high esteem, but he's a battlefield god, concerned with battlefield emotions. The mania of looting a city (which invariably included sexual crimes against civilians) wasn't as much an Ares concern... that was his wife, Enyo. She's the goddess of sacking cities and all the attendant crimes against women. It's a linked emotion, hence, the marriage of Ares and Enyo, but the feeling of bursting into a house and seizing a defenseless and terrified woman is different from the feelings that come with meeting a capable enemy in the field. There's a lot of misconceptions about Ares that emerge because he wasn't actually a particularly significant god to Greek religious practice. He was a god, a major god, and you owed any god the appropriate honors simply because they were gods, but his cults were never as developed or significant as just about any other major Greek god, and certainly not on the level of Mars. He wasn't the patron of Sparta—we actually know, from historical and archaeological evidence, that Athena had a prominent temple in Sparta, far more significant than Ares's cult. Most associations with Sparta come from misreadings of poetic phrases and slander. A guy who "fights like the devil" probably isn't coming from a nation of devil-worshipers, and if an Athenian is talking about how the Spartans sacrificed humans to Ares to slake their bloodlust, a ritual not recorded anywhere else: it's probably slander. One thing the linked article doesn't mention, but I suspect is relevant: as Rome ascended, Sparta was on a long descent into something of a tourist trap for Roman men who wanted to believe there was a manlier past that was lost to corrupt decadence. So there was a big cultural incentive to rewrite Spartan history into a comical distortion of macho behavior, particularly for a writer like Pausanias, an ethnic Greek born into the Roman Empire and trying to promote a narrative of lost glory. Him writing about Sparta keeping a chained up statue of the war god might just be some bullshit for tourists who would be absolute suckers for it.
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Apr 21, 2023 01:51
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It's seriously lol how Sparta basically turned into Rome's Disneyland.
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Apr 21, 2023 02:57
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Speaking about Important Haircuts and Spartans, they were super proud of their long hair and used to style it before battle and decorate it with ornaments Weren't the vikings also really big into being proud of their hair and beards and taking good care of them?
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Apr 21, 2023 03:34
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Randalor posted:Weren't the vikings also really big into being proud of their hair and beards and taking good care of them? There's a chronicle written by a monk in the ~1200's that includes the line "the Danes, thanks to their habit of combing their hair every day, of bathing every Saturday and regularly changing their clothes, were able to undermine the virtue of married women and even seduce the daughters of nobles to be their mistresses."
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Apr 21, 2023 04:32
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Mooseontheloose posted:I like CienmaSins but hate fanfiction, what am I!? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnTZbZw1JPQ
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Apr 21, 2023 05:57
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Precambrian posted:
So like, the precursor to those "reject modernity embrace tradition" cryptofascists with sculpted marble butt av's
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Apr 21, 2023 06:12
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Precambrian posted:
3000 years scam is still going strong.
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Apr 21, 2023 12:12
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Cool Kids Club Soda posted:So like, the precursor to those "reject modernity embrace tradition" cryptofascists with sculpted marble butt av's ...did you mean "bust" or have they started using chiseled buttocks as avatars?
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Apr 21, 2023 12:16
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Brawnfire posted:...did you mean "bust" or have they started using chiseled buttocks as avatars?
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Apr 21, 2023 12:41
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On one hand the most popular cultural image of Sparta is wildly inaccurate and still probably harmful in some kind of socially conscious way, on the other hand This... is... Sparta!!!! lol *kicks u off cliff*
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Apr 21, 2023 13:48
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exquisite tea posted:On one hand the most popular cultural image of Sparta is wildly inaccurate and still probably harmful in some kind of socially conscious way, on the other hand This... is... Sparta!!!! lol *kicks u off cliff* It's a better story than a nation of slavers that lived in perpetual fear of a slave rebellion and then faded into obscurity.
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Apr 21, 2023 14:05
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Brawnfire posted:...did you mean "bust" or have they started using chiseled buttocks as avatars? Oh trust me, they bustin' too
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Apr 21, 2023 16:02
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Khizan posted:There's a chronicle written by a monk in the ~1200's that includes the line "the Danes, thanks to their habit of combing their hair every day, of bathing every Saturday and regularly changing their clothes, were able to undermine the virtue of married women and even seduce the daughters of nobles to be their mistresses." I think this is also misread a lot—in the 13th Century, being able to dedicate the considerable daily time to hair care was a sign of leisure, and a private bath, unlike the washbasins and public baths that poor folks used, demands a lot of hauling water and firewood for only a single person's benefit. It's a lot of work before plumbing! And to do it weekly is even more time-consuming. As a result, they're both signifiers of being wealthy and having enough thralls that they could be assigned to non-productive tasks like drawing a bath. So it's less "Medieval Englishmen were smelly and gross!" and more "Our colonizers are wealthy and powerful, and can leverage that to further humiliate and belittle us." It's something the British would later turn around and aggressively use themselves, using wealth and power to create a narrative of hygiene to show moral (and racial) superiority over their colonized subjects.
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Apr 21, 2023 16:40
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Brawnfire posted:...did you mean "bust" or have they started using chiseled buttocks as avatars? no the bust is on the other side
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Apr 21, 2023 16:49
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LASER BEAM DREAM posted:It's a better story than a nation of slavers that lived in perpetual fear of a slave rebellion and then faded into obscurity. Maybe the slavers that fell into obscurity shouldn't be lionized as heroic
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Apr 21, 2023 17:26
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Hey pal I liked The Woman King
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Apr 21, 2023 17:33
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LASER BEAM DREAM posted:It's a better story than a nation of slavers that lived in perpetual fear of a slave rebellion and then faded into obscurity. The modern equivalent is basically Rhodesia. Or the American South.
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Apr 21, 2023 17:33
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Precambrian posted:I think this is also misread a lot—in the 13th Century, being able to dedicate the considerable daily time to hair care was a sign of leisure, and a private bath, unlike the washbasins and public baths that poor folks used, demands a lot of hauling water and firewood for only a single person's benefit. It's a lot of work before plumbing! And to do it weekly is even more time-consuming. As a result, they're both signifiers of being wealthy and having enough thralls that they could be assigned to non-productive tasks like drawing a bath. So it's less "Medieval Englishmen were smelly and gross!" and more "Our colonizers are wealthy and powerful, and can leverage that to further humiliate and belittle us." It's something the British would later turn around and aggressively use themselves, using wealth and power to create a narrative of hygiene to show moral (and racial) superiority over their colonized subjects. This is on of those things I'm not 100% on, but when reading a biography of Henry II, the author basically poured over literally every document that existed from that time, and at one point did mention how in sherrif's rolls that people would get fined for not bathing weekly. No idea when or if it fell off into more of the dirt covered filthy medieval peasants, but around the time of Danelaw there was some understand of bathing and hygiene required in the UK. Plus, while probably true, accusing the strange looking foreigners of trying to steal your local woman is on the first page of the racism playbook so there may have been more to it.
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Apr 21, 2023 17:34
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This is a pretty good take down on the myth of Sparta: This. Isn’t. Sparta.
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Apr 21, 2023 17:34
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pentyne posted:This is on of those things I'm not 100% on, but when reading a biography of Henry II, the author basically poured over literally every document that existed from that time, and at one point did mention how in sherrif's rolls that people would get fined for not bathing weekly. No idea when or if it fell off into more of the dirt covered filthy medieval peasants, but around the time of Danelaw there was some understand of bathing and hygiene required in the UK. Oh yeah, it's a huge misconception that pre-modern people didn't bathe. A lot of misconceptions of the Dark Ages comes from Enlightenment-era narratives that were trying to cast the pre-Enlightenment as a particularly stupid and disastrous time just waiting for the return of Intellectuals who could save them from ignorance and the Church. People generally like feeling clean, washing up feels good, and they understood hygiene well enough to know the benefits of bathing. But there's a difference between a rich invader bathing in a tub and another man using communal baths or a basin to wash up. The issue in the chronicle (which is actually 11th Century, not 13th as I earlier wrote and which also makes no sense) is that the bathing is part of a triad of signs of wealth and leisure. It also includes with the hair-care and bathing that they frequently changed outfits, which sounds like a baseline expectation in a mass production economy, but in a medieval context, that's an announcement that they're either rich enough to buy many sets of clothing or have a big enough household for women, many likely enslaved, would be continuously producing cloth to make those outfits. It was about the Danes flaunting their wealth and power at a time when the scales was tipping against Danish occupiers.
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Apr 21, 2023 20:55
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FouRPlaY posted:This is a pretty good take down on the myth of Sparta: This. Isn’t. Sparta. Good read, thanks.
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Apr 21, 2023 22:10
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Precambrian posted:Oh yeah, it's a huge misconception that pre-modern people didn't bathe. A lot of misconceptions of the Dark Ages comes from Enlightenment-era narratives that were trying to cast the pre-Enlightenment as a particularly stupid and disastrous time just waiting for the return of Intellectuals who could save them from ignorance and the Church. People generally like feeling clean, washing up feels good, and they understood hygiene well enough to know the benefits of bathing. But there's a difference between a rich invader bathing in a tub and another man using communal baths or a basin to wash up. The issue in the chronicle (which is actually 11th Century, not 13th as I earlier wrote and which also makes no sense) is that the bathing is part of a triad of signs of wealth and leisure. It also includes with the hair-care and bathing that they frequently changed outfits, which sounds like a baseline expectation in a mass production economy, but in a medieval context, that's an announcement that they're either rich enough to buy many sets of clothing or have a big enough household for women, many likely enslaved, would be continuously producing cloth to make those outfits. It was about the Danes flaunting their wealth and power at a time when the scales was tipping against Danish occupiers. There was also a thing where late 16th/early 17th century cities saw massive population booms, far beyond what they were to set up to handle (note the parallel to the infamously unhealthy Industrial cities of the late 19th/early 20th centuries). Besides shifts in what was practical to supply - heating water for baths and such was a lot harder when you're placing an immense demand on the wood supply for heating and cooking - having such massive quantities of people and animals shoved together created a lot of filth. Later people locked into the idea that civilization only advances in one direction (or, in other words, the assumption that things axiomatically get worse the further back in time you go) used this as a data point and extrapolated that the "dark ages" must have been even worse.
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Apr 21, 2023 22:31
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Cool Kids Club Soda posted:So like, the precursor to those "reject modernity embrace tradition" cryptofascists with sculpted marble butt av's didnt these marble statues have paint too? same for the Great Pyramids and probably all notable big rocks. turns out humans dont like boring rock colors and like colorful things.
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Apr 21, 2023 23:22
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In the rare instances where the paint was preserved all those Roman statues look fukkin' goofy as hell so that's a win for entropy in my book.
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Apr 21, 2023 23:33
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I remember hearing that moai statues originally had hats, make-up, and big googly eyes
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Apr 21, 2023 23:41
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