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lol https://www.gamesindustry.biz/are-developers-allowed-to-copy-themselves-this-week-in-business
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Apr 23, 2023 00:14
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Herstory Begins Now posted:lol quote:STAT | $841,944 – The amount of money Nexon invested into P3 Project over the course of 11 months, according to the suit. oh my god nexon, shut the gently caress up and go away
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Apr 23, 2023 01:12
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Herstory Begins Now posted:lol I'm sure the dude from gamesindustry.biz who admits he has no idea what he's talking about knows what he's talking about. EDIT: Like, I at least repeat what an IP lawyer has said, which is a better qualification than "I've read a lawsuit before." And don't write articles on what I don't know. Kchama fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 01:39
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VulgarandStupid posted:In my opinion IM approached this and executed in the worst ways possible. I mean the loading screen art was lifted from P3. Then later slightly altered so they can claim it isn’t the same. The tavern was cloned from P3, which is why they changed it in the latest playtest but it’s not like they will convince anyone in court. If you stole art and didn’t bother to change it, then chances are they stole code too. Which is all very sad, because I loving love this game, but they did not go about this the right way.  
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Apr 23, 2023 01:49
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quote:$841,944 – The amount of money Nexon invested into P3 Project over the course of 11 months, according to the suit.
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Apr 23, 2023 01:51
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Blockhouse posted:there is no settlement that isn't "dark and darker does not come out" and I think IM would like to make money off their game at all possible To me, if it looks like you have a hit on your hands, both sides actually want the product to be commercially successful because both sides make a lot more money that way. They will fight about who gets what percentage of the money and who controls it, how it's branded, etc (probably mostly that money part though). This feels like a pretty niche genre, so I don't know if the thread's enthusiasm is reflective of the wider market, but if it is I would think this game is coming out somehow.
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Apr 23, 2023 04:49
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comedyblissoption posted:is the "lifted" loading screen art like from that article herstory linked? This image just looks like the same concept artist drew two versions of similar ideas to me. Claiming this is some sort of indication of theft Is pretty nuts to me. Dude drew a mage and a barbarian two different times for two different studios. The P3 mage has a spell book on his hip and here we see the D&D mage with a spellbook on his hip. Everyone knows Nexon originated mages using spell books and storing them on their hip right? Also... there is this.  
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Apr 23, 2023 04:56
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Ostrava posted:This image just looks like the same concept artist drew two versions of similar ideas to me. Claiming this is some sort of indication of theft Is pretty nuts to me. Dude drew a mage and a barbarian two different times for two different studios. It’s an indication that they intended on reproducing the product that they had been working on for Nexon at IM. Which is a big no-no in South Korea. Less so in America, but lawyers seem to think they have a good enough case to take to trial. Can they win in America on that charge? Not sure, but the trade secrets one seems to be a much easier lock, especially if they do have proof that he deleted evidence (and he did admit to it, so it probably isn’t too hard).
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Apr 23, 2023 05:04
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With trade secrets it's not really about the individual assets being copied, it's more like stealing the recipe. Showing how similar some of these things are isn't about any one asset in isolation is a unique design that must of been stolen, it's about showing how could so many of these things be nearly identical if they weren't copying P3. To use the recipe analogy further: You're allowed to try to copy Colonel Sander's chicken, what you're not allowed to do is lift the recipe book and just read from it. It's not about no one else has ever used one seasoning or another in isolation, but when all the seasonings are exactly the same it's evidence that the recipe was stolen rather than independently developed.
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Apr 23, 2023 05:15
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Video games are not made using recipes. There's no step by step highly detailed objective plan. Development projects are managed with subjective bounds and, abstract goals. It's less about using a recipe and more about tasting as you go and adding the ingredients you think are needed at the time. That's literally what playtesting is. Also the idea that these character images were some how unique or special is ridiculous. Those are the most derivative images of a mage or barbarian I could imagine. How could something so generic be a trade secret? If I asked 10 concept artists to draw me 5 Barbarians and 5 Mages I'd definitely get some that looked like the P3 images. Close enough to piss off Nexon apparently. Lol. The only thing that maybe you could argue was a trade secret is that the P3 project existed in the first place but... even that's thin. Tons of people played Tarkov and said hey this would be cool but with Dungeons and Dragons instead of Russia. If they can demonstrate that Choi actually took and used original files from P3 in a published build of D&D I see the claims made by Nexon being valid. Unless I see that proven this very much seems like a big Pub trying to act like their developers are their property to me. Ostrava fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 05:23
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Ostrava posted:Video games are not made using recipes. There's no step by step highly detailed objective plan. Development projects are managed with subjective bounds and, abstract goals. It's less about using a recipe and more about tasting as you go and adding the ingredients you think are needed at the time. That's literally what playtesting is. How do you think recipes are developed? This is literally the complaint being made, that all that time and money had already been invested in tasting and testing and IM stole the recipe that came from it.
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Apr 23, 2023 05:50
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The complaint being made is that Nexon didn't try that hard to get the game made, saw it had much more potential than they thought, and are mad
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Apr 23, 2023 06:29
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Ostrava posted:Video games are not made using recipes. There's no step by step highly detailed objective plan. Development projects are managed with subjective bounds and, abstract goals. It's less about using a recipe and more about tasting as you go and adding the ingredients you think are needed at the time. That's literally what playtesting is. Also the idea that these character images were some how unique or special is ridiculous. Those are the most derivative images of a mage or barbarian I could imagine. How could something so generic be a trade secret? If I asked 10 concept artists to draw me 5 Barbarians and 5 Mages I'd definitely get some that looked like the P3 images. Close enough to piss off Nexon apparently. Lol. It's not that they're unique or non-generic, but that it's the same poo poo they made for P3 specifically. That's what trade secrets is about. Also, he was using a recipe as a metaphor, no poo poo that video games aren't literally made using recipes. The thing is, if they're telling the truth about Choi writing up a contract promising to let Nexon audit the private home server and then he deleted all the files so they couldn't anyways, then they won't not need to prove anything since that's destroying evidence to hide wrong-doing. And in these cases, the law says to basically go with the worst possible interpretation or possibility of what the evidence could have proven. So it could just be legally fait accompli that Choi stole the files and transferred to a third party, presumably Ironmace. I'm reminded of the fact that Terance Park had to come out and go "I told them not to use any P3 files, so they didn't!" which isn't a thing you'd need to say if you didn't have any stolen files to use... Lemming posted:The complaint being made is that Nexon didn't try that hard to get the game made, saw it had much more potential than they thought, and are mad I mean that's what Ironmace is claiming, and they have every reason to say whatever helps them no matter how untruthful it is. Nexon too, but Nexon at least seems to be willing to put it in legal writing, which makes it a little more trustworthy. It is also pretty dubious that they didn't try very hard to get it made and didn't care about it and had cancelled it when they announced it to the world as an existing project even after Choi was fired and half the team quit. They were still developing it. Choi was fired in July 2021, and Terence Park quit in August 2021 to get to work forming Ironmace. P3 was announced to the public in August 2021. Kchama fucked around with this message at 08:36 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 08:34
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Kchama posted:It's not that they're unique or non-generic, but that it's the same poo poo they made for P3 specifically. That's what trade secrets is about. I caught the use of metaphor. My response was more about there is no actual recipe so there's nothing to steal. From what I've seen Ironmace just went off to make the thing that was their idea to begin with. Maybe south Korean law can criminalize that but... gently caress South Korean law if so. If and only if they actually used files that were Nexon property would I see anything strange about Ironmace. Nexon can throw accusations all they want I just see the big company bullying the small dev and I've seen it often enough it seems totally plausible.
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Apr 23, 2023 09:08
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Ostrava posted:I caught the use of metaphor. My response was more about there is no actual recipe so there's nothing to steal. From what I've seen Ironmace just went off to make the thing that was their idea to begin with. Maybe south Korean law can criminalize that but... gently caress South Korean law if so. If and only if they actually used files that were Nexon property would I see anything strange about Ironmace. Nexon can throw accusations all they want I just see the big company bullying the small dev and I've seen it often enough it seems totally plausible. ... So you didn't catch the use of the metaphor. The point of a metaphor is that there isn't a literal actual recipe! It's just a stand-in to help you understand that the problem was that they took all the information and creations they gained at Nexon's expense and ran off to another company to use it. That's the 'recipe' (NOT A LITERAL RECIPE!!!!) they were copying, was the files and creations they came up with at Nexon. The idea is that the Ironmace devs basically took all of the hard work of developing the game from its birth at Nexon using Nexon's money, and then switched over to their own company to profit while minimizing their own costs. Which uhh, laws in both America and South Korea both forbid. And it's good that they forbid it, because if it was legal, big companies would take advantage of it extremely hard. Hell, considering all the emails that came out that revealed that Choi did all this at the behest of a bigger South Korean company, means that it's even better if their hands get smacked away from the cookie jar.
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Apr 23, 2023 09:22
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comedyblissoption posted:is the "lifted" loading screen art like from that article herstory linked? No. I’m talking about the loading screens.
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Apr 23, 2023 10:21
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Kchama posted:... So you didn't catch the use of the metaphor. The point of a metaphor is that there isn't a literal actual recipe! It's just a stand-in to help you understand that the problem was that they took all the information and creations they gained at Nexon's expense and ran off to another company to use it. That's the 'recipe' (NOT A LITERAL RECIPE!!!!) they were copying, was the files and creations they came up with at Nexon. No, the metaphor doesn't really apply. It's not a good metaphor for this situation. So you think the bulk of the work done during game development is coming up with the idea? It's not. It's realizing the idea. That's what Nexon was paying for, the actual creation of the game. If Ironmace didn't take the tangible results( the files from source control ) of that supposed 11 months of development then they didn't take anything. Nexon presumably still has those files and can hire other devs to finish the game if they choose. Nexon has lost nothing except the good will of the people who were working for them. Can you link the emails you referred to? I've not read those. Ostrava fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 10:23
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Ostrava posted:No, the metaphor doesn't really apply. It's not a good metaphor for this situation. None of this is how the law actually works. The recipe metaphor applies to how the law works, not whatever it is you've made up in your head on how you think it should work. At a very basic level the existence of trade secrets as a legal category is to target exactly what you're arguing is okay. A tangible work product would be a copyright issue.
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Apr 23, 2023 12:06
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Ostrava posted:No, the metaphor doesn't really apply. It's not a good metaphor for this situation. It's a metaphor that's perfect for how the law works. And like, that's the point of the "they made the game as literally identical to our game as they could get thanks to the stolen files" complaint. They actually explained everything that went into the development of the game to get to the point that it was when Choi was fired, and that huh, funny that Ironmace seems to have started their development from literally the same point. It's almost like they were working off stolen files and only barely trying to hide that fact. Relatedly, Nexon's case would be a lot weaker if it didn't have ex-Nexon devs, at least in the eyes of the South Korea Trade Secrets law. Since the totality of similarities + the fact that ex-Nexon dev worked on it mean it is a lot easier to prove that they used their secret knowledge of P3 to make Dark and Darker. That part is probably harder to win in America since America has weaker laws there, but it's basically exactly the requirements for the South Korean law. Especially when you take into account Choi informing Nexon that he intended to use the P3 files he took to make P3 at his own company. Which uhh, was really loving dumb to be honest. Also the emails are in Korean because it's a Korean company, so linking them wouldn't do much good. My information is also second-hand as a result, but according to the articles I read, they were pivotal in turning South Korean's public against Ironmace pretty early on. It's why Ironmace focuses pretty much entirely in America rather than South Korea, despite being a South Korean company. Presenting yourself as the underdog indie devs while actually being in the pocket of South Korea's version of Time Warner or Disney (HYBE by way of subsidary HYBE IM) tends to cause some heavy backlash. Also Nexon lost the money and time they invested, which is not 'nothing'. Since it's not like Ironmace's ex-Nexon devs paid for everything out of their own pockets and never interfaced with Nexon at all.
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Apr 23, 2023 12:29
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I believe Ironmace is 100 percent telling the truth now that I've found out about that Nexon bitcoin investment.
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Apr 23, 2023 12:37
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Groovelord Neato posted:I believe Ironmace is 100 percent telling the truth now that I've found out about that Nexon bitcoin investment. Nexon is bad, bitcoins is bad, but also IM's description of how things went down is both laughably farfetched and dumb that I don't know why they bothered to put that out. "They UNPROFESSIONALLY asked to audit my secret home server that had the P3 build on it, how dare they! I asked my lawyer and he told me to wipe the servers so no evidence could be taken from them, and then they fired me for it! How could they?!" Like, any lawyer worth being paid would absolutely tell you to not touch those loving files because wiping the server would just make everything worse. And that's if we only take Choi's account there into consideration. I mean, I do believe he wiped the servers after talking to someone, as that's one part where both sides agree, but it makes Choi look extremely dumb and bad.
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Apr 23, 2023 12:42
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Can Kchama be banned when IM win their lawsuit? Would make reading his posts worth it if there’s a big payoff at the end
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Apr 23, 2023 13:52
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From what some video I watched recently said there was a clause in Choi's employment agreement that he could hand over OR destroy the personal files relating to Nexon projects, and he chose to destroy them, but I'd have to look more into that.
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Apr 23, 2023 14:05
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Akumos posted:From what some video I watched recently said there was a clause in Choi's employment agreement that he could hand over OR destroy the personal files relating to Nexon projects, and he chose to destroy them, but I'd have to look more into that. Doesn't matter. The agreement to have them examined would supersede that, and regardless you're not allowed to destroy evidence even if you otherwise would have the right to destroy something. He signed an agreement to have the server examined for evidence, there's no way he can argue he didn't know it could be evidence in a legal controversy. That's part of the reason he's probably hosed. Adverse inference now applies so Nexon doesn't have to provide evidence there were stolen files on or transferred from the server, they are allowed to infer from the destruction of evidence that the evidence was damning. edit: to be clear I thought this whole thing was bullshit Nexon trying to claw back money on a project they cancelled and the devs decided to make on their own until I read the complaint. Jarmak fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 14:27
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Demon Of The Fall posted:Can Kchama be banned when IM win their lawsuit? Would make reading his posts worth it if there’s a big payoff at the end I'm sorry that explaining thing hurts you so much. I hope you will somehow live if it gets settled or IM loses. It's not like I like Nexon, but Ironmace doesn't seem to be much better sadly. Makes sense, as the CEO is, according to what I've heard so take with grain of salt of course, the dude who came up with Nexon's worst F2P bullshit. Akumos posted:From what some video I watched recently said there was a clause in Choi's employment agreement that he could hand over OR destroy the personal files relating to Nexon projects, and he chose to destroy them, but I'd have to look more into that. That clause... wouldn't have anything to do with the situation. It sounds like someone is misunderstanding his written agreement to turn over the files. P3 build files wouldn't count as personal files.
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Apr 23, 2023 21:12
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i want ironmace to win the case so you'll stop posting
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Apr 23, 2023 21:27
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studio mujahideen posted:i want ironmace to win the case so you'll stop posting I want them to win because Nexon's case is dogshit and also it's the only good multiplayer game.
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Apr 23, 2023 22:22
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Jarmak posted:None of this is how the law actually works. The recipe metaphor applies to how the law works, not whatever it is you've made up in your head on how you think it should work. Right... and Nexon has filed suit for a copyright infringement and made a DMCA claim and as far as I can tell no proceedings about trade secrets. Also they've filed in a US court. Ironmace released a list of files that Nexon alleged Ironmace used, expect they all appear to be 3rd party files that are commercially available either through middleware or content websites. There are a small number of texture/material files that _maybe_ could have been re-used but Nexon's allegation are based on file names not hashes of the files. Additionally the sum total value of those files based on labor to produce them would be sub $500-1000. It wouldn't really be worth it to reuse. Again... Ironmance would know that. ESPECIALLY since we know from that file list they were using 3rd party content. They could have just bought new textures for far less risk than taking them. Additionally using the EXACT textures from P3 just doesn't matter, they're not the heart and soul of the game. It's soooooo unimportant to keep those files. Ironmace would have had very little motivation to keep them. The really important stuff is the game level code/unreal project files like scripts, maps etc. Those are hard to replace and take effort to recreate. Nexon has notably not alleged that D&D maps are the same as P3 maps for example. The only allegation of reuse we've seen have been superficial and seem implausible to anyone who knows how making games works. That's my whole point. Unless Nexon can show files were actually taken and used. Then Ironmace has done nothing wrong. They're perfectly allowed to leave Nexon employment and go start from scratch. Presuming they actually did. _ANY_ dev with some experience would know not to take files and re-use them. Presuming Ironmace isn't focused on being as absolutely stupid as they can be, they wouldn't have reused files. It'd be insane and nearly impossible to hide. If this goes to trial then they'll get ahold of the source control during discovery and it will be VERY easy to prove they reused files. It looks a lot more likely to me that Nexon is flexing it's legal muscle in a bid force a settlement and there by get a chunk of a pie that they thought wasn't tasty but changed their minds after a small group of people worked their asses off on something they believed in. To... me... Ostrava fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 22:23
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Kchama posted:I'm sorry that explaining thing hurts you so much. I hope you will somehow live if it gets settled or IM loses. It's not like I like Nexon, but Ironmace doesn't seem to be much better sadly. Makes sense, as the CEO is, according to what I've heard so take with grain of salt of course, the dude who came up with Nexon's worst F2P bullshit. This doesn't sound that weird to me. During COVID I had files from source control on the project I was working on stored on a local machine in my house so I could work with out tons of time spent pulling files. When that project shipped I moved on to something else. I was obliged to then clear those drives. For context the company I was working for is every bit if not more litigious than Nexon, historically speaking.
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Apr 23, 2023 22:32
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Groovelord Neato posted:I want them to win because Nexon's case is dogshit and also it's the only good multiplayer game. originally i felt this way but for the sake of this thread my priorities have changed
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Apr 23, 2023 22:40
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Ostrava posted:Right... and Nexon has filed suit for a copyright infringement and made a DMCA claim and as far as I can tell no proceedings about trade secrets. Also they've filed in a US court. Your link has a copy of the complaint in it that literally says the chief allegation is misappropriation of trade secrets, did you even read it? Like I get that you're a code monkey that thinks copying the literal code is the only thing that matters and you can't steal a design, but that's not the way any of this works. Edit: there is some specific code they're claiming was stolen which is why there's a secondary allegation of copyright infringement, but the concept art and third party asset stuff is part of the trade secrets allegation. Jarmak fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 22:46
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Jarmak posted:Your link has a copy of the complaint in it that literally says the chief allegation is misappropriation of trade secrets, did you even read it? Yep you're right I misread it. They do use the term trade secrets in the #1 complaint. I must not have been caffeinated enough when I read it. Still my point holds. The filing alleges that two veteran game developers did something any game dev knows would never work. If it's true Choi and Park are incredibly stupid which doesn't really line up with their seniority. Maybe they are just that dumb, but I still don't buy it. It seems a lot more likely to me that Nexon is twisting a dispute over remote work setup into something more nefarious in support of what I've said before. The only way we'll know is by comparing the two source control depots. Jarmak posted:Like I get that you're a code monkey that thinks copying the literal code is the only thing that matters and you can't steal a design, but that's not the way any of this works. I understand a lot more than you're giving me credit for. I think I've made it pretty clear I just don't believe the claims Nexon has made. They don't pass the sniff test for me. If I believed the claims were true the situation would obviously be very bad for Ironmace. I just think Nexon is full of poo poo. I may be totally wrong but if so then Choi and Park are so incredibly stupid I'm stunned they reached such a senior position at Nexon in the first place. Jarmak posted:Edit: there is some specific code they're claiming was stolen which is why there's a secondary allegation of copyright infringement, but the concept art and third party asset stuff is part of the trade secrets allegation. This will be very easy to dis/prove post discovery. They'll get ahold of Ironmace's source control and PS3's source control and be able to hash the files. It's very notable that the lawsuit points out file names... which is just so stupid. The name of a file has so very little to do with it's actual data. I'm pretty surprised the lawyers involved made the claim like that. In other weirdness.... The lawsuit is filed in a Seattle court? Nexon likely has offices in Seattle but... Ironmace probably doesn't? Seems like a standing problem to me I dunno maybe international copyright/trade stuff works differently than I know. Ostrava fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 22:56
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Comparing file hashes seems worthless imo. If I were Nexon I’d argue they could have easily changed one pixel of textures or a comment at the top of a code file and boom - the hashes are all completely different. You want a real comparison, you probably need to do some form of content diff between Nexon’s source and various revisions of the code stored in the repository, akin to a plagiarism or AI content checker.
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Apr 24, 2023 01:31
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Ruggan posted:Comparing file hashes seems worthless imo. If I were Nexon I’d argue they could have easily changed one pixel of textures or a comment at the top of a code file and boom - the hashes are all completely different. Sure. You could do a much more detailed diff. I just don't think Ironmace is likely to have gone to the trouble to hide from hash compares rather than just starting from scratch or buying third party stuff instead. It's less work and less risk. If they're trying to obscure that they stole files they're pretty screwed .
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Apr 24, 2023 01:53
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Ostrava posted:This doesn't sound that weird to me. During COVID I had files from source control on the project I was working on stored on a local machine in my house so I could work with out tons of time spent pulling files. When that project shipped I moved on to something else. I was obliged to then clear those drives. For context the company I was working for is every bit if not more litigious than Nexon, historically speaking. The weird thing is the whole "give Nexon your personal files or destroy them" aspect. If they're your personal files, on your personal machine, there's no need for Nexon to have them. Unless you mean "personal copy of the project files", it still sounds weird. Anyways, he signed an agreement saying that Nexon could investigate the server, which sounds like it's a different thing anyways. studio mujahideen posted:i want ironmace to win the case so you'll stop posting If Ironmace turns out to have done no wrong and they just keep posting stupid stuff, then I'd be totally happy if they win. However, I ain't gonna stop posting now, sorry! Hell, I might keep posting even if they win, cuz the game is good. Ostrava posted:In other weirdness.... Valve is in Seattle, which seems to be the reason why, since Valve handled the DMCA.
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Apr 24, 2023 02:54
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Kchama posted:Valve is in Seattle, which seems to be the reason why, since Valve handled the DMCA. Yeah that's all I can think of too. Still weird as Valve isn't directly involved. They're just caught in the middle.
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Apr 24, 2023 03:16
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Figure it's a "All our poo poo is hosting and taxed in America. So if you guys start this on Steam you use USA courts."
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Apr 24, 2023 03:32
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IIRC They have to file in the US to keep up the DMCA claim.
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Apr 24, 2023 06:27
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:IIRC They have to file in the US to keep up the DMCA claim. Only if Ironmace counterclaimed, which they have not said they did yet, so I dunno. The timing makes it unclear.
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Apr 24, 2023 06:50
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I think Ironmace would have a stronger case if they moved up the timeline for adding paladin.
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Apr 24, 2023 14:36
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