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I'm now rewatching TNG for the first time since Netflix disks were a thing and while the first few episodes are execrable on balance season 1 is a lot better than I remember. One thread I'm interested in watching is just when they decide that Data can't feel emotions. He clearly has emotions in this season, I thought they'd cement that in Datalore, but he just describes himself as "less human", nothing that indicates he doesn't feel emotion. Characterwise, he smiles, he looks surprised, scared, his voice is much more inflected and he as emotional affect. I'll be interested to see if they slowly move him into "cannot feel emotions" over time or just drop that new fact out of nowhere at the start of some random episode. Also with respect to Data and contractions, he notes, and Lore later notes, that Lore uses contractions and Data does not use them, and this is why Lore is more human seeming than Data. But that's presented as more of a social deficiency rather than a restriction from his programming. It's not that he can't, it's that he doesn't (except when he does)
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Apr 24, 2023 18:51
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:yes but have you considered that this way we can make a clip show ep? No because clip shows suck.
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Apr 24, 2023 19:00
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At the risk of taking the bait: You can't call Tuvix's existence the murder of Tuvok and Neelix and pretend killing Tuvix isn't ALSO murder. Like, it's basically the trolley problem. Janeway does nothing and lets 2 men die, or actively takes a life and saves 2.
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Apr 24, 2023 19:27
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She should have compromised by killing Tuvix without bringing back either Tuvok or Neelix
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Apr 24, 2023 19:31
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Gaz-L posted:At the risk of taking the bait: You can't call Tuvix's existence the murder of Tuvok and Neelix and pretend killing Tuvix isn't ALSO murder. Like, it's basically the trolley problem. Janeway does nothing and lets 2 men die, or actively takes a life and saves 2. The trolley problem doesn't usually involve two corpses and a magic spell to resurrect anyone. Bringing people back to life is wrong, period, full stop. Therefore it was wrong to murder Tuvix just to do an even worse crime against nature. Likewise Picard should've died and the show ended season 1.
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Apr 24, 2023 19:43
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Khanstant posted:Bringing people back to life is wrong, period, full stop. It's okay to have that position but it's one that Trek has generally disagreed with.
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Apr 24, 2023 19:54
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Gaz-L posted:At the risk of taking the bait: You can't call Tuvix's existence the murder of Tuvok and Neelix and pretend killing Tuvix isn't ALSO murder. Like, it's basically the trolley problem. Janeway does nothing and lets 2 men die, or actively takes a life and saves 2. I'm not pretending it's not. It's just easily justified. Khanstant posted:Bringing people back to life is wrong, period, full stop. Why?
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Apr 24, 2023 20:02
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Gaz-L posted:At the risk of taking the bait: You can't call Tuvix's existence the murder of Tuvok and Neelix and pretend killing Tuvix isn't ALSO murder. Like, it's basically the trolley problem. Janeway does nothing and lets 2 men die, or actively takes a life and saves 2. Except whenever the trolly problem is framed in that way (such as a surgeon who murders a man for his organs, which will save 5 lives) it's pretty unanimously taken to be utterly horrifying and morally abhorrent. The problem I have with most moral arguments around Tuvix is that they treat Tuvok and Neelix as existing, but dead. Kill one man to save two? Yeah, maybe. Kill one man to bring two beings into existence? Oviously batshit. But in order for the "kill one, save two" argument to work then the beings you save have to be alive in order to save them. But if they are alive then there's no reason to kill Tuvix (and I imagine, to dance in his blood). And if they don't exist, then they aren't harmed by their non-existence (or else we'd have a moral imperitive to be constantly creating babies, so that all this non-existent beings have the chance of life)
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Apr 24, 2023 20:08
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Friendship One is a Voyager concept that is so good on paper and it just ends up being mediocre which is the whole of voyager.
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Apr 24, 2023 20:09
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"What is emotion" is one of those interesting questions that TNG tries to tackle but also the writers kinda biff it sometimes because it's a hard question. I think it's easy to just say "oh he's a machine and he wasn't programmed with emotions" but I think by virtue of him being sentient, he kind ends up with some emotions. It's pretty clear that he doesn't have a sense of humor, either to construct, deliver, or understand a joke, so I guess we consider "humor" an emotion? I think they also try to make the audience (and Data) believe that "friendship" is an emotion, but they sorta develop an emergent type of "friendship" for Data basically undermines their own statement that "friendship" is an emotion.
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Apr 24, 2023 20:22
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The real crime was bringing Neelix back. Regardless of Tuvok (who could have carried the show if he was utilized better) or Tuvix, having Neelix alive and around should be considered a courtmartialable offence.
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Apr 24, 2023 20:38
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:It's okay to have that position but it's one that Trek has generally disagreed with. Yes and look where that got us. The shambling golem of a dead man who constantly forgets what character he is supposed to be.
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Apr 24, 2023 20:43
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The crucial part of Tuvix that people don't consider is the opinions of the component people who are part of Tuvix. We all know that Tuvok deeply, desperately, wants Neelix to die, and Neelix's mere existence threatens his mental health. And look at Neelix  That's not the face of someone who thinks his continued existence contributes positively to the universe. Neelix got on Voyager to try to escape his life, only to find that his biggest problem was himself. Given the choice, both of them would vote for Neelix's continued nonexistence. Tuvix is, obviously, in favor of his continued existence. So it's a 3-0 vote to keep him around.
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Apr 24, 2023 20:50
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CainFortea posted:I'm not pretending it's not. It's just easily justified. Huh, didn't think about it much since it just seems totally taboo inherently, and just a core part of existing at all, seems like dying is pretty important, good, and sacred. I didn't even like when Jesus did it and in that case poo poo got really hosed up on Earth while he was dead and loving around in hell. In real life, resurrection would be the herald of a dark age of what we have now but compounded by a quadrillion times as the same few lovely people rule everyone forever. I'm sure everyone has a [former person they still love and want to be around alive again] but sometimes that person is also [former person whose removal from life directly improved the mental health, wealth, or life of someone who suffered because of the former person.] Resurrection is an appropriate hook for horror stories and dystopias, like Picard. In context of Trek universe it's a harder position to defend since since crazy transporters can just create a new person in the right stupid circumstances.
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Apr 24, 2023 20:51
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Tunicate posted:The crucial part of Tuvix that people don't consider is the opinions of the component people who are part of Tuvix. Remember how sad and jealous Neelix was over a giant elf toddler because she like spoke to a couple dudes who weren't as hideous as Neelix?
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Apr 24, 2023 20:52
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Pro move would be go figure out how to transporter clone Tuvix, then separate the original. Then you get both Tuvok and Neelix being weirded out for a season until Tuvix has to leave for some reason.
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Apr 24, 2023 20:55
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Neelix is fine once you get past season 3 or so
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Apr 24, 2023 20:56
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Pretty sure I've said this before: poor Ethan Philips. A decent actor and a decent guy, but he's forever tied to one of the least popular characters in all of Star Trek.
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Apr 24, 2023 20:58
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Khanstant posted:Huh, didn't think about it much since it just seems totally taboo inherently, and just a core part of existing at all, What's dead though? Where you do draw the line where we can repair damaged tissue to the point where someone comes back? The body is a machine and if we can continually get better are repairing the machine, preserving its memory store when it's malfunctioning, and then restarting it, what's actually taboo here?
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Apr 24, 2023 21:03
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Immortal people is the same deal and just as terrifying. Lifetime appointments are already a nightmare but when that lifetime is indefinite, yeesh. Our modern life expectancies already are proving to be problems we are not handling very well and it's not hard to guess who the burden gets shifted onto. Even worse that the people who would pay for that poo poo are already the ones so scared of dying and who value accumulating wealth that they have pre-dismissed any problems pursuing that desire. The world's most selfish people, existing forever and ever because they want to until the only people left are narcissists who can't conceive of a universe persisting without them. Do you apes really want to live forever?
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Apr 24, 2023 21:10
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I do, yes.
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Apr 24, 2023 21:18
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I don't. I think immortality would be hell for several reasons. It's not just watching everyone you know and love die, but the human body isn't mean to last forever, so you'd get diminishing returns with body functionality (I guess this would go hand in hand with transhumanism bros who think that easy tech solutions are all we need to "perfect" the human race). e: "Transhumanism bros" isn't a knock at you, zoux, or anyone else ITT. F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Apr 24, 2023 |
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Apr 24, 2023 21:20
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:I don't. I think immortality would be hell for several reasons. It's not just watching everyone you know and love die, but the human body isn't mean to last forever, so you'd get diminishing returns with body functionality (I guess this would go hand in hand with transhumanism bros who think that easy tech solutions are all we need to "perfect" the human race). Pretty sure when most people talk about immortality for humans it's implied that there is some kind of age halting or resetting functionality to it.
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Apr 24, 2023 21:23
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CainFortea posted:Pretty sure when most people talk about immortality for humans it's implied that there is some kind of age halting or resetting functionality to it. Several Star Trek episodes address why that could potentially be a can of worms. Not just Too Short A Season but in the original series, Metamorphosis and arguably Requiem for Methuselah.
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Apr 24, 2023 21:25
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Several Star Trek episodes address why that could potentially be a can of worms. Not just Too Short A Season but in the original series, Metamorphosis and arguably Requiem for Methuselah. Sure, but there are also examples in fiction of ways it could work out mediocerly. Also splendidly.
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Apr 24, 2023 21:27
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Khanstant posted:Immortal people is the same deal and just as terrifying. Lifetime appointments are already a nightmare but when that lifetime is indefinite, yeesh. Our modern life expectancies already are proving to be problems we are not handling very well and it's not hard to guess who the burden gets shifted onto. That's different though. There are moral considerations on what can happen to society if certain classes were granted immorality. That doesn't mean that reversing death itself as much as possible is immoral or is inherently taboo. That's literally the history of medicine. Death is the state in which the meat SSD is completely corrupted beyond recovery. The more we push the envelop of medicine, we reset the conditions on when we come to that state. So, by that definition, no one is ever being resurrected because they didn't die to begin with.
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Apr 24, 2023 21:27
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CainFortea posted:Pretty sure when most people talk about immortality for humans it's implied that there is some kind of age halting or resetting functionality to it. Right now, our capitalist hellscape would allow the worst people to live forever and acquire more money and essentially never lose it. Death is a great equalizer in a lot of ways.
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Apr 24, 2023 21:36
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I think our present medicinally prolonged lifespans are scary in a way that pre-civilization brutally short and risky ones probably were. Unless the immortality also includes ways to rewire the person back to a younger star where they can still meaningfully grow and change into newer better people, then you're just rapidly building up a conservative hellscape of infinite old-timers who want things to be how they used to be, forever and ever. The whole premise of DNA based life forms is all the evolution, which is a process of mostly dying. I getting a petition together to have a town hall to see what we should do about these so called immortal jellyfish out there, before any other critters get any funny ideas.
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Apr 24, 2023 21:43
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If you're really that anxious about dying someday just go to heaven, it's basically life but forever. Some heavens you get your own planet to be god of, others you can buy a bus ticket with eye coins to hang out underground with everyone, really take your pick.
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Apr 24, 2023 21:47
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If it sucks to live for 1000 years then I shall simply kms when it becomes a problem. Too Short A Season wasn't about how much immortality sucks, it was about killing yourself chasing immortality. The dude was pretty happy with the results until he died from the treatments.
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Apr 24, 2023 21:50
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Very few people, me included, want to die, but immortality always struck me as something that sounds cool until you actually experienced it for yourself.
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Apr 24, 2023 21:53
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Mooseontheloose posted:Right now, our capitalist hellscape would allow the worst people to live forever and acquire more money and essentially never lose it. Death is a great equalizer in a lot of ways. That just kind of makes my point. The answer of "do you want to live forever" is not really based on the ability to live forever but how well your life would be in whatever society has "living forever" as an option. Do you want to live forever as a serf under some piece of poo poo noble? Probably not. Do you want to live forever in a post scarcity utopia where everyone gets the chance to fulfill their lives equally? Probably sure. The idea that "people just keep getting more conservative as they get older" is just patently false.
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Apr 24, 2023 21:54
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Khanstant posted:I think our present medicinally prolonged lifespans are scary in a way that pre-civilization brutally short and risky ones probably were. As someone who lost a friend at 40 years old to cancer, I want to be clear. gently caress this viewpoint completely. Medical advances at least let him have another 18 months with us instead of dying in weeks. quote:The whole premise of DNA based life forms is all the evolution, which is a process of mostly dying. Except it's not, it's the exact opposite. Evolution is the expression of life, not death. Survival of the fittest doesn't literally mean everything dies out, it's that the most adapted flourish. Also, be careful here, you are reaching eugenics territory. Mooseontheloose posted:Right now, our capitalist hellscape would allow the worst people to live forever and acquire more money and essentially never lose it. Death is a great equalizer in a lot of ways. Yeah, no, it's not. Their families still never lose it so there's not one hell of a lot of difference. It doesn't really matter to everyone else if the concentrated wealth stays with one person or gets passed down the line. The only outlier is if someone along the way decides they want to give it all away. How is that working out? Immortality isn't the problem here, it's capitalism.
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Apr 24, 2023 22:13
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CainFortea posted:...and dealing with Captain Ransom by chasing him down and stopping him from brutally murdering any more aliens was the right move.
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Apr 24, 2023 22:23
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I think even under the best conditions immortality would cause people and society to stagnate and make civilisation utterly unrecognisable after enough time and not something to be sought, but also it's a silly escapist fantasy people pursue to escape their fear of death. I'd be happy to live a long healthy life and check out when that's no longer the case, can't stay around forever crapping up the world for future generations
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Apr 24, 2023 22:25
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Knormal posted:True, but someone should probably look into those Equinox crewmembers who "joined Voyager's crew" and were never seen again. We never saw like 80% of the rest of the crew.
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Apr 24, 2023 22:27
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Gonna point out that we already live in a society where while the elites aren't immortal, they are so long lived and with such great healthcare that the same group of people have been ruling nonstop for 40 years. We currently have the oldest president in history right now, who succeeded the previous oldest president in history. Some of them might as well be brain dead (Feinstein) but they still have a death grip on power. And, uh, the country hasn't been doing great in that time, as we know
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Apr 24, 2023 23:08
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That’s still just capitalism though.
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Apr 24, 2023 23:27
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Lol old folks staying in power happens in every system, gorby got supreme leadership of the ussr because the last 3 guys had died of old age in a 4 year span
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Apr 24, 2023 23:41
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Feldegast42 posted:Gonna point out that we already live in a society where while the elites aren't immortal, they are so long lived and with such great healthcare that the same group of people have been ruling nonstop for 40 years. We currently have the oldest president in history right now, who succeeded the previous oldest president in history. Some of them might as well be brain dead (Feinstein) but they still have a death grip on power. And, uh, the country hasn't been doing great in that time, as we know The problem is that we keep letting them drink the blood of children from the pizza-cabal.
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Apr 25, 2023 00:01
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