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You don't have to have sex in your games. This is something people don't seem to understand about apocalypse world. If you're uncomfortable with any aspect of the game, don't use it.
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Apr 30, 2023 05:09
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| # ? May 25, 2024 09:34 |
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Immersion ruined, no one actually has sex and that truth extends to my tabletop games.
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Apr 30, 2023 05:27
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The sex moves are there because the intended tone of Apocalypse World is the sort of gritty drama associated with prestige TV or R-rated film, where the characters are adults who might have sex with each other; the moves themselves all have to do with interpersonal relationships and characterization, essentially making sex something that has psychological weight in the setting (and narrative weight in the game). It's not the stereotypical RPG "ooh, I must power my Succubus Magycks" sex stuff. It's also completely optional, as Kwyndig mentioned; you can readily change it to happening when characters achieve a meaningful moment of non-sexual intimacy with one another, or you can just choose to not use those rules at all, without anything breaking. It's absolutely not core to the ruleset and most PbtA games don't use the Special system.
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Apr 30, 2023 05:30
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Kwyndig posted:You don't have to have sex in your games. This is something people don't seem to understand about apocalypse world. If you're uncomfortable with any aspect of the game, don't use it. But that ain't what the book says.
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Apr 30, 2023 05:30
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First, I read that Robert Evans story. It has a whole lot of sex throughout. Ya kinda asked. Then you gotta circle back around to how moves work. They key when something happens in the fiction. *World games are based around emulating fiction, and sex is a part of gritty action fiction like post-apocalypse so it would be pretty weird if it didn’t have rules for it. If your players don’t have sex it literally can’t come up. The game works off of narrative consent in a conversation. It’s also worth keeping in mind that there’s a pretty strong degree of metaphor in *World mechanics so it’s pretty common to treat them more like Intimacy Moves for non-sexual emotional beats between characters. Max giving the rifle to Furiosa in Fury Road is an example I’ve seen cited that I always liked. It’s how you treat people when you show who you really are.
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Apr 30, 2023 05:39
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Nessus posted:To be fair, they could update the PDF and have not done so, although I gather there is extensive documentation to the effect of the intention being "a moment of tender, vulnerable intimacy, which includes but is not limited to sex." They did remove the sex moves in Burned Over.
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Apr 30, 2023 05:43
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Youremother posted:They did remove the sex moves in Burned Over. Not out of any reconsideration of whether they were a good fit for Apocalypse World. It's important to remember that Burned Over is a different game, made in no small part by and for different people, who have a different relationship to sexuality (and roleplaying games). It started out as basically a version of AW they could run for their kids (and which the kids could run for their friends), and those kids now have as much if not more experience with the system than their parents - the Baker kids had writing credits for it in 2019, and they've done a lot more work on it since. There's a recent interview with John Harper that talks about this, which can be summarized as, "Burned Over is the Baker House Band's project, and when it's finally done people are going to be extremely impressed." As for sex moves in AW: they're there because Meg is a sex ed instructor, and writing games is Vincent's love (and hate) language. They're important to the game as written, there's playbooks that really don't function as intended if you're not leveraging those moves, but you can ignore them and the game won't fall apart.
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Apr 30, 2023 08:48
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the Apocalypse World Sex Moves Are Cringe signal was lit and the Um Actually Explainers began to converge on the position
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Apr 30, 2023 09:25
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Kestral posted:As for sex moves in AW: they're there because Meg is a sex ed instructor, and writing games is Vincent's love (and hate) language. They're important to the game as written, there's playbooks that really don't function as intended if you're not leveraging those moves, but you can ignore them and the game won't fall apart. So you can remove them and it won't have any effect, but some parts of the game also won't work right?  Like, when you say "won't work as intended," how badly would it affect some of these playbooks(also aren't "playbooks" really just "classes" or "archetypes" from other games? why are we not over giving things un-needed new names yet)?
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Apr 30, 2023 10:01
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Those moves always gave me the real skeezy vibes of something that was clearly made and playtested by a polycule who have forgotten what boundaries are like for everyone else.
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Apr 30, 2023 10:04
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Papa Was A Video Toaster posted:I'm looking for something written on adapting a novel into a game world. At like a philosophical level how does it differ from a world that is original/doesn't wear its influences on its sleeve?
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Apr 30, 2023 10:54
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Splicer posted:If the players decide they want to do something extremely disruptive to the existing timeline, such as heading to the nearest still-functioning airbase and doing a bombing run on the main political powerbase of the antagonists, will you let them fail or succeed on their own merits or will you try to maintain how the plot is "supposed to go"? This is a good point; it's good that you're already considering the importance of the PCs in the timeline, but how much are they going to be able to change that timeline? For most games, the PCs having the power to meaningfully affect the world and plot is a major hook, and something that a lot of adaptations of other media can bobble -- there's a very heavy temptation to treat the canon as sacrosanct, but that can make the game feel like the PCs are spectators rather than actors. I would go for more plot flexibility over less.
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Apr 30, 2023 12:47
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PurpleXVI posted:So you can remove them and it won't have any effect, but some parts of the game also won't work right? PBtA Playbooks always felt far more expansive and restrictive than Class systems. The closest parallel is probably builds from D&D 3.x editions; where every feat and character progression decision was laid out at level 1. Because PBtA Playbooks don't just define your starting set of resources and strengths, they define how the character can develop going forward, what the character's personality is like, what the character looks like, in some games the character's ultimate fate will be (Impulse Drive), and in some games what sex/intimacy means for that character. In some ways the focus on the sex part of the Sex moves seems a little off, because the problem is still there when it switches to Intimacy moves like in Flying Circus. You can sidestep the age appropriateness and some of the boundary issues; but it's still a massive limit on role-playing to say "Intimacy with this person means this" when the player was just trying to find the playbook that created the least dissonance with their character concept.
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Apr 30, 2023 13:58
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Sex moves are part of Apocalypse World because it follows the fiction that AW is trying to recreate. They are important to playing "Apocalypse World". Sex moves are not a necessary part of the Apocalypse World (PBTA) engine. If they do not follow the fiction you are recreating you not only don't need to, but you should not include them in your game. This discussion came up when I made So77, because sex is very common in 70's exploitation films. I determined that they were inappropriate because sex in the fiction I was recreating did not have any narrative purpose beyond titillation.
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Apr 30, 2023 15:32
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There is nothing wrong with succubus magycks 
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Apr 30, 2023 16:26
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I've complained about the Apocalypse World sex moves before but now I'm joining the "we're retreading this too much" club.
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Apr 30, 2023 17:20
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I hear Chuck Tingle's coming out with Pounded in the Butt by Yet Another Recurrence of the Apocalypse World Sex Moves Talk, a Pounded by the Apocalypse game.
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Apr 30, 2023 17:37
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AW’s sex moves aren’t any weirder than the rampant encouragement of murder and violence in D&D
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Apr 30, 2023 18:03
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PurpleXVI posted:So you can remove them and it won't have any effect, but some parts of the game also won't work right? I said the game won’t work as intended, but won’t fall apart either. That’s a pretty clear statement, so I can only assume this isn’t being asked in good faith. You can find plenty of discussion of this well-work topic here or elsewhere if you’re genuinely curious.
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Apr 30, 2023 18:03
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PurpleXVI posted:So you can remove them and it won't have any effect, but some parts of the game also won't work right? Playbooks aren't quite classes in the way D&D uses them, and they aren't quite whatever WotC uses as a name to cover Vampire Clans, Mage Traditions, Werewolf Tribes, etc. In a true class-based game your class is who you are and your list of abilities and they are pretty silo'd. Meanwhile in Apocalypse World your playbook represents your place within the world and what you actually do. The Hardholder is the Hardholder because they rule Bartertown. The Maestro D' is the master of the scene. The Hocus has a cult. A Hardholder who is betrayed, and left for dead, and is coming back with blood in their eye, looking for revenge is no longer a Hardholder because they aren't holding anything hard (they have almost certainly made the transition either to Gunlugger or if they've recruited some loyalists as a gang of rebels to Chopper). A Skinner who starts to settle down and wants to run the establishment rather than be the star attraction in it is going to be first taking Maestro d' moves then transitioning entirely to the Maestro D' playbook. This is not the same relationship a character has to their class. And it's not that some parts of the game won't work right, it's more that a couple of the playbooks (mostly the Skinner) will feel a little lacking. Some games lean into some things, others into others.
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Apr 30, 2023 19:42
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whydirt posted:AW’s sex moves aren’t any weirder than the rampant encouragement of murder and violence in D&D That's what I'm SAYING
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Apr 30, 2023 19:46
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whydirt posted:AW’s sex moves aren’t any weirder than the rampant encouragement of murder and violence in D&D
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Apr 30, 2023 20:31
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Rightly or wrongly it is a stumbling block, and I know people who flat refuse any PBTA game because they were disgusted by the sex moves in AW. Hardcoded, full stop, don't bring it up or I'll be upset rejection. The entire constellation is dead to them. I think this is unfortunate, but these people have reasons beyond "icky!" and I do not think it is a good thing that this slice of the population, many of whom would probably enjoy other PBTA games, have this huge hard pass. At this point the damage is done, but I know if I were to design a game of whatever sort, I would never, ever place something like AW's concept of the sex move in it; however, I believe the "intimacy" read of it would work just fine, and something like a list which included "having sex" as an option next to "sorrow together, comfort maternally, give close spiritual council" etc. would not go down near so hard.
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Apr 30, 2023 20:49
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Servetus posted:PBtA Playbooks always felt far more expansive and restrictive than Class systems. The closest parallel is probably builds from D&D 3.x editions; where every feat and character progression decision was laid out at level 1. Because PBtA Playbooks don't just define your starting set of resources and strengths, they define how the character can develop going forward, what the character's personality is like, what the character looks like, in some games the character's ultimate fate will be (Impulse Drive), and in some games what sex/intimacy means for that character. I'm going to leap in here because the comparison between Apocalypse World and 3.5 has a lot of meat to dig into in context. Specifically, class systems were in a pretty maligned place in the wider RPG design community in the post-d20 period, and a big part of that is because 3.5 used classes in a way that severely undermines all the good things about class systems. The big strength of a class system is that you're handed an archetype out of the box and you can make that archetypal character without much fuss. But 3.5 and 3.5 derivatives are generally really bad at that, because they're obsessed with splitting every class into tiny chunks that you can fit together lego-style level by level, and that means you can't feel like your archetype until level 10 because they split it up so finely and you have to make a whole 1-20 build ahead of time to actually make a character that does what you want it to do. Compare that to Apocalypse World playbooks. You say what kind of archetype you want to play, you get handed the appropriate playbook and you are done. And yes, your playbook has a specific set of advances, but advancement is set up in a way that's less about rigid char-op and more about diversifying your character to show how they're different from the specific archetype they started as. It's the difference between "I need to take these specific feats at these specific levels to be competent as a Spear Guy" and "I talked about being a medic during The War during this session, I guess I'll take an Angel move to represent that". There's a lot of reasons Apocalypse World ended up becoming the start of a new RPG movement despite being an intentionally weird and off-putting indie game, but I'm certain making class systems seem cool again is one of them.
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Apr 30, 2023 21:37
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Megazver posted:the Apocalypse World Sex Moves Are Cringe signal was lit and the Um Actually Explainers began to converge on the position
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Apr 30, 2023 22:13
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Those moves always gave me the real skeezy vibes of something that was clearly made and playtested by a polycule who have forgotten what boundaries are like for everyone else.
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Apr 30, 2023 22:28
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whydirt posted:AW’s sex moves aren’t any weirder than the rampant encouragement of murder and violence in D&D The Orc approaches you with a battle ax wet with blood, a look of hatred emanates from his eyes.  THE FIGHT IS ONThe Orc steps into your bed room, wearing a tusky smile and a hand towel. He's wearing the hand towel on a pole that he's...  You know what, time out. Where the X card
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Apr 30, 2023 22:36
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Once again the horrible issue that different people have different boundaries and tastes in sexual, violent, or any other kind of content must rear its ugly head
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Apr 30, 2023 22:38
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I mean, y'all joke, and I even agree it's a little ridiculous when it extends to WWWRPG or something, but it is a thing I have encountered myself multiple times. That said, I do think it has a certain amount of reputational decay - Hard Wired Island is clearly descended from AW in terms of mechanics but these same people were down with it. So assuming the scene keeps rolling, it will eventually be a non-issue.
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Apr 30, 2023 22:42
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I was trying to avoid getting involved in AW DISCOURSE, but here's the difference between violence and sex in RPGs for the "lol y r u ok with MURDER but not some sexy times rp, PRUDES" nerds Describing fictional violence isn't actual violence. Even if you get super hosed up and grotesque about it, it's still not actually violence and pretty much all violence you get in D&D (if you're not playing with /r/rpghorrorstories players) is way below that bar Describing sexual acts is in itself a type of sexual act. People actually do it together to cum. As such, even getting somewhat adjacent to it can get kinda weird, depending on how and who you're doing it with and if you don't see why, vvvvvv Ghost Leviathan posted:Those moves always gave me the real skeezy vibes of something that was clearly made and playtested by a polycule who have forgotten what boundaries are like for everyone else.
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Apr 30, 2023 22:46
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Antivehicular posted:The sex moves are there because the intended tone of Apocalypse World is the sort of gritty drama associated with prestige TV or R-rated film, where the characters are adults who might have sex with each other; loving? In my Game of Thrones?
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Apr 30, 2023 22:54
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Nessus posted:Rightly or wrongly it is a stumbling block, and I know people who flat refuse any PBTA game because they were disgusted by the sex moves in AW. Hardcoded, full stop, don't bring it up or I'll be upset rejection. The entire constellation is dead to them. i empathize with this worldview, because i'm the exact same way except with italian food and an annoying guy i knew in middle school
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Apr 30, 2023 22:57
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Sex Moves should instead be mechanics on the Wrestling Erotic RPG that I have been procrastinating upon for the last decade
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Apr 30, 2023 22:58
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whydirt posted:AW’s sex moves aren’t any weirder than the rampant encouragement of murder and violence in D&D (everyone at the table getting mad at me because i won't stop getting horny) and yet you didn't blink twice when you struck down those bandits! who's really "making everyone uncomfortable" here??
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Apr 30, 2023 22:59
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Megazver posted:Describing sexual acts is in itself a type of sexual act. People actually do it together to cum. As such, even getting somewhat adjacent to it can get kinda weird, depending on how and who you're doing it with and if you don't see why, vvvvvv Sex (actually Special in 2nd ed) Moves don't require you to describe sexual acts, only the fact that two characters had sex/were intimate. It's explicitly stated that Vincent himself prefers the "fade to black" method.
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Apr 30, 2023 23:07
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Most RPGs don't actually encourage violence against other members of the party. It's against NPCs. The quoted rules say most sex moves have to be with other PCs.
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Apr 30, 2023 23:12
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Sex (actually Special in 2nd ed) Moves don't require you to describe sexual acts, only the fact that two characters had sex/were intimate. It's explicitly stated that Vincent himself prefers the "fade to black" method. hence "even somewhat adjacent"
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Apr 30, 2023 23:13
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This all sounds like stuff that should be chatted about in some sort of pre-game session to find out what people don't want to have in their games. I don't know too much about them, since they didn't really exist and/or weren't popularized when I was last playing PnP RPGs regularly. In the first session you could say, "What don't you want in this game?" and they could say "No sexual content, please." It would be as valid as someone saying they didn't want extreme graphic descriptions of violence because they're squeamish, the endangerment of children because they just had a kid, to be ejected from an airlock into space because that just gives them the heebie jeebies, or a dog dying because seriously what is wrong with you? The point is to have fun. Based on a quick search, https://goldenlassogames.com/tools describes them a bit.
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Apr 30, 2023 23:39
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IMO, to be clear, this is a flaw (and a pretty major one) in Apocalypse World which casts reputational damage onto its direct descendants in the eyes of some slice of the TTRPG community, not something that is intrinsically wrong to have in an RPG.
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Apr 30, 2023 23:47
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Nessus posted:IMO, to be clear, this is a flaw (and a pretty major one) in Apocalypse World which casts reputational damage onto its direct descendants in the eyes of some slice of the TTRPG community, not something that is intrinsically wrong to have in an RPG. Oh absolutely. It's also ridiculous on the face of it. To reject like, 75% of modern indie ttrpgs because they use a mechanical framework developed for an R-rated game with fade to black implications of sex.
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Apr 30, 2023 23:52
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