(Thread IKs:
weg, Toxic Mental)
|
Nelson Mandingo posted:There is a lot in the past I can defend Noam on but honestly I have to wonder what the gently caress is going through his head beyond dementia in regards to the war in Ukraine. He's been consistently wrong and doubles down on some real smooth brained takes that is completely at odds with other things he's said in the past. I don't really follow him much but from what I've seen he's pretty sour over just about everything.
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 04:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 10:53 |
|
|
There's always something to say about the hideous things that the USA either encouraged, supported, or flat-out carried out in the name of its imperialism, and that there will never be justice done in terms of punishing the state actors responsible. The issue is when people draw the line at the actor and not the act.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 04:58
|
|
|
he's been diagnosed with terminal boomer brain, nothing to be done
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 05:01
|
|
|
TulliusCicero posted:...What is even the point of continuing this war? Slap a big Миссия выполнена banner on the Kuznetsov and have Pootin trot around in a flight suit giving thumbs up. Then get the gently caress out of Ukraine.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 05:10
|
|
|
Scam Likely posted:Slap a big Миссия выполнена banner on the Kuznetsov and have Pootin trot around in a flight suit giving thumbs up. Then get the gently caress out of Ukraine. Mission accomplished means 18 more years of war.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 05:18
|
|
|
drat you're right... 
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 05:23
|
|
|
TulliusCicero posted:...What is even the point of continuing this war? Glory. For some people to fight and win a war is a reason in and of itself.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 05:24
|
|
|
What I am afraid of is that this missile attack and a few more will deplete Ukraines ability to produce air defense for its electric grid. Ukraine needs more AA.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 05:31
|
|
|
TulliusCicero posted:...What is even the point of continuing this war? Ukraine stated that they were wanting to join the "We Don't Like Russia Club", which of is a crime worthy of being pancaked and wiped from existence.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 06:21
|
|
|
Toxic Mental posted:Ukraine stated that they were wanting to join the "We Don't Like Russia Club", which of is a crime worthy of being pancaked and wiped from existence. And it could easily be argued that Ukraine joining NATO isn't the reason, but rather by them joining NATO Russia wouldn't be able to invade them anymore and that is what makes them mad. "We want to be able to invade you at all times and if you do anything to protect yourself against it, we will invade you!" *invades* "How could perfidious USA do this!?"
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 06:33
|
|
|
I saved time in life by not liking chomsky many years ago for entirely different reasons
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 06:48
|
|
|
I learned about the chomsky hierarchy studying computer science and that whole formal grammar stuff is boring af
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 06:51
|
|
|
spankmeister posted:And it could easily be argued that Ukraine joining NATO isn't the reason, but rather by them joining NATO Russia wouldn't be able to invade them anymore and that is what makes them mad. They weren't even considering NATO until the 2016 invasion were they? Just looking at economic alignment with the EU.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 07:46
|
|
|
The Lone Badger posted:They weren't even considering NATO until the 2016 invasion were they? Just looking at economic alignment with the EU. Probably because they knew Russia would lose their poo poo if they tried, and uh
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 08:04
|
|
|
Toxic Mental posted:Ukraine stated that they were wanting to join the "We Don't Like Russia Club", which of is a crime worthy of being pancaked and wiped from existence. It's not even really the "We Dont Like Russia Club", it's the "We Don't Want to Be Invaded and Taken Over and Brutally Subjugated By Russia Again, Because It's Happened To Many Of Us Within Living Memory Club". And apparently the penalty for not wanting to be brutally subjugated and lightly genocided by Russia twice within living memory is getting brutally subjugated and genocided by Russia.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 08:04
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/wammezz/status/1652788426964434945
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 08:27
|
|
|
The Lone Badger posted:They weren't even considering NATO until the 2016 invasion were they? Just looking at economic alignment with the EU. Ukraine had already stated their desire to join NATO, after the orange revolution in 2004 and Viktor Yushchenko coming into power. They made an official bid for entry in 2008 (together with Georgia) which was denied but a statement was made by NATO leaders that Ukraine (and Georgia) would eventually join. In 2010 Yushchenko lost the election to Yanukovych, who was (is) pro-russian, and he dropped the bid. In 2013 Yanukovych went against the wishes of the Ukrainian parliament by last-minute blocking an EU association agreement and making one with Russia instead. Ukrainians were very upset and Euromaidan happened, and Yanukovych got ousted and fled to Russia. Petro Poroshenko became president. (By now we're in 2014) This is when Russia invaded Crimea and the Donbass. (2014, not 2016) Ukraine, now led by Poroshenko, again expressed their desire to join NATO but this was impossible at the tjme because they were in active conflict, and NATO doesn't allow countries to join when they are. So Putin's first invasion effectively blocked Ukraine from joining NATO. If Russia wouldn't have invaded Ukraine would likely haven't been able to join NATO for decades. But here we are. spankmeister fucked around with this message at 09:16 on May 1, 2023 |
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 09:08
|
|
|
The takeaway is that Yanukovych quietly dropped the NATO ambitions to appease Russia, and then Putin said "by the way, joining the EU isn't ok either." The people who never fail to point out how "democratically elected" Yanukovych was have all conveniently memory-holed that he ran on a pro-EU platform in 2010, but did a 180 due to Russian pressure and bribery in 2013, at the last minute after years of negotiating with the EU.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 09:30
|
|
|
TulliusCicero posted:...What is even the point of continuing this war? They're dumb as gently caress
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 09:40
|
|
|
Authoritarian bullshit grift culture. It will go on as long as the decision makers benefit from it.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 09:44
|
|
|
Hannibal Rex posted:The takeaway is that Yanukovych quietly dropped the NATO ambitions to appease Russia, and then Putin said "by the way, joining the EU isn't ok either." They also never remember that a more important measure of democracy than electing your leaders is being able to get rid of them. Which is a metric where Yanuk didn't score very well. Also they don't remember that it was his own party that ousted him in a parliamentary vote, lol Karate Bastard posted:Authoritarian bullshit grift culture. It will go on as long as the decision makers benefit from it. Do they, though? They could have spent their life quietly running their feudal shithole of a country while living in their Italian villas, but they threw it away in exchange for... alliance with Iran and North Korea?
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 09:57
|
|
|
Reportedly, Either Shoigu or Lavrov when interviewed about why the war was launched basically went that this was all Pootin's own idea, and to a lesser extent the FSB/GRU convincing him and agreeing it would be a quick in and out. In their own words, "Putin has 3 advisors, Ivan the Terrible, Catherine the Great, and Peter the Great." e: I was right, it was Lavrov https://twitter.com/FinancialTimes/status/1629114635465924609
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 10:06
|
|
|
Now he will only be remembered for creating the Ukraine quagmire, just like people only remember George W Bush for doing 9/11
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 10:10
|
|
|
steinrokkan posted:Do they, though? They could have spent their life quietly running their feudal shithole of a country while living in their Italian villas, but they threw it away in exchange for... alliance with Iran and North Korea? I don't know. I just don't have a better explanation. My guess is that if the feudalists weren't profiting somehow, they wouldn't do it. I guess "profit" could be "I get thrown out a window some other week instead of this week", which for sure would be a fair point. I imagine the terror is present all the way to the top. They have filled their hierarchies with loyal idiots who are encouraged to plot and scheme against each other, and keep backfilling with more of the same. I can imagine being part of that is terrifying. So you have a hierarchy of terrified idiots that keeps plotting against itself and doubling down on past bad posturing. Dacha or window is an easy choice for a terrified idiot. I'm not hopeful for an end to this any time soon. If someone has a better analysis I would be very happy to hear it.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 10:19
|
|
|
Hannibal Rex posted:The takeaway is that Yanukovych quietly dropped the NATO ambitions to appease Russia, and then Putin said "by the way, joining the EU isn't ok either." Why was Putin against EU cooperation? I don't really see how Ukrainians wanting more money effects him at all.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 10:20
|
|
|
zone posted:Reportedly, Either Shoigu or Lavrov when interviewed about why the war was launched basically went that this was all Pootin's own idea, and to a lesser extent the FSB/GRU convincing him and agreeing it would be a quick in and out. In their own words, "Putin has 3 advisors, Ivan the Terrible, Catherine the Great, and Peter the Great." There's a really easy joke in here about horses.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 10:20
|
|
|
Disco Pope posted:There's a really easy joke in here about horses. I was going to do that, but I wanted to enquire about EU membership more.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 10:23
|
|
|
Lammasu posted:Why was Putin against EU cooperation? I don't really see how Ukrainians wanting more money effects him at all. It would have pulled Ukraine away from depending on Russia for trade and economic reasons.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 10:27
|
|
|
Karate Bastard posted:I don't know. I just don't have a better explanation. If I'm right, this will not end until it is blatantly patently obvious to most of the decision makers that proceeding will hurt them and their superiors personally and irreparably, an idea that they are very much culturally inoculated against. What terrifies me is that this may not happen before russia is transformed into a vast expanse of mud huts of its own making, because that will not be a good time for anybody.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 10:35
|
|
|
Hannibal Rex posted:The takeaway is that Yanukovych quietly dropped the NATO ambitions to appease Russia, and then Putin said "by the way, joining the EU isn't ok either." Don't forget that Yanukovych was a corrupt bastard that had his own private zoo. I have this image of when the rebels stormed his residence desperately trying to find out what you feed peacocks.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 10:43
|
|
|
Lammasu posted:Why was Putin against EU cooperation? I don't really see how Ukrainians wanting more money effects him at all. Putin has always presented himself as the only thing separating Russia from the rampant lawlessness of the 90s. It would be terrible for him if Ukraine demonstrated that East Slavic ex-Soviet states have other alternatives.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 11:03
|
|
|
Lammasu posted:Don't forget that Yanukovych was a corrupt bastard that had his own private zoo. I have this image of when the rebels stormed his residence desperately trying to find out what you feed peacocks. The zoo is the least weird thing. Man had a penchant for partying on the water. To this end he had a 160ft floating palace and a motherfucking pirate ship.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 11:22
|
|
|
Plus the requirements for EU membership/association involve (at least somewhat) cleaning up naked corruption and putting in place various new laws and regulations. All of which make it a lot harder for Russia to exercise its own brand of soft power and influence over Ukraine via corrupt oligarchs.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 11:25
|
|
|
Tigey posted:Plus the requirements for EU membership/association involve (at least somewhat) cleaning up naked corruption and putting in place various new laws and regulations. Why don't Russia simply create rock and roll, Coca Cola and Hollywood?!?
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 11:26
|
|
|
Shaman Tank Spec posted:It's not even really the "We Dont Like Russia Club", it's the "We Don't Want to Be Invaded and Taken Over and Brutally Subjugated By Russia Again, Because It's Happened To Many Of Us Within Living Memory Club". It does not help that every Internet platform is full of smoothbrained takes that confuse the very real security concerns caused by Russia - the county expressed by the East Europeans as "that wacky European-style turborascims lol" and dog whistling against the Russia - the people. How hard is it to read the news, maybe some history, and get the idea that Russian foreign policy has been for the last 20 years, ever since Putin took over, to just be a massive rear end in a top hat and increasingly belligerent actor against everyone, but especially towards those who used to be part of the USSR 30 years, or Russian empire some 100 years ago. And how hard is it to understand that independent nations and their people do not want to go back to being hostilely occupied and subjugated by Russia, and want to seek shelter such as NATO? It doesn't take conspiracy to "why is NATO expanding", it is expanding because countries want to join in it because Russia wasn't and isn't reliable, or more recently even sane, actor or neighbor.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 11:29
|
|
|
Lammasu posted:Why was Putin against EU cooperation? I don't really see how Ukrainians wanting more money effects him at all.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 11:32
|
|
|
Gerblyn posted:Have you got a link any articles like that? I don't think I've seen a single guardian article taking that stance, they're all pretty firmly anti-war. Sorry, that was terribly worded, and had a bit missing for some reason (booze) I was meaning the comments posted under Guardian articles which are filled with whatabout-warriors. I've got plenty of respect for the articles and the paper's stance in general, but the posts are often awful. Not like my posts eh, no not at all. Tbh, I've stopped reading "below the line" as they call it. Maybe the quality has improved lol YerDa Zabam fucked around with this message at 11:47 on May 1, 2023 |
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 11:37
|
|
|
If Ukraine joins the EU, they'll also probably join the Schengen area - the zone where you can travel without a passport or visa. It's not 1:1, Bulgaria and Romania are not (yet) Schengen members, and there's a few non-EU members on the inside. Still, they'd probably want to join, it makes life easier in many ways. If they do, their border with Russia becomes EU's border with Russia. This puts some obvious limits on who and what can cross that border, and limits Russia's possibilities for a soft takeover in the future.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 11:38
|
|
|
Adolf Glitter posted:Sorry, that was terribly worded. The Guardian below the line is loving terrible (but honestly, where isn't it?) but they have at least one writer who I now actively ignore who seems horny for the idea of active NATO participation and has been since the war began. I can't remember his name, but I know it when I see it. The Guardian, somewhat understandablely, switch BTL off on articles about gender issues, for example, so why they let armchair Rambos and nuclear nihlists spill their brains on articles about the war is beyond me. Disco Pope fucked around with this message at 11:48 on May 1, 2023 |
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 11:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 10:53 |
|
|
Went out for beers with two friends last night. One is Polish, the other a Brit. Anyway, my Brit friend bumped into her brother and his friend so we merged tables and chatted. Later in the evening the war came up and the brothers friend turned out to be a tankie and proceded to lecture my Polish friend on why Poland was not actually poo poo on by Russia and how NATO is at fault, war crimes are lies etc. My usually chill as gently caress friend lasted about 10-15 minutes of it and then promptly lost his poo poo big time. It was quite funny to watch him slowly reaching boiling point although not much fun for him I'm sure having someone justify why your country doesn't matter from a pro Russian perspective.
|
|
#
?
May 1, 2023 11:49
|
|