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ItohRespectArmy posted:i will say while the topic of sex moves comes up I have to say that my very favourite one is The Mortal from monsterhearts. "Love has eclipsed all hope" is a pretty key part of the Mortal's intro graf, yes.
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May 1, 2023 05:56
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Yeah, I feel like the Mortal is a playbook where you 100% want to make sure the player knows where this is going -- you should probably be doing it with every MH playbook, given how reliant that game is on lots of OOC trust and mutual understanding, but Mortal is particularly a trap.
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May 1, 2023 06:48
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Always keep in mind people have very, VERY different ideas of what sex and intimacy mean in the context of roleplaying. Like, regular social skills are bad enough, even with a group that AREN'T all self-admitted neurodivergent disasters. See all those stories in the cat piss thread and you'll see why a lot of people see a system that has sex between player characters built into the mechanics and immediately want nothing to do with it. It's the equivalent of being the going 'oh no THIS anime is an amazing work of storytelling and art and the naked teenagers aren't even that important except thematically and wait that's the second floor window where are you going'
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May 1, 2023 07:09
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Re: "rpg violence isn't real but describing sex is" I always thing about the one time I've had to X-card a game (though this was before I had that terminology), which was when playing a game of the generally excellent (though only available in swedish, sadly) Noir. The game is, unsurprisingly, about doing film noir stories - very character driven, the GMing chapter was eye-opening to a younger me. In any case, I'm running the game as you're supposed to, following character motivations and pushing dramatic events from them - the game recommends a responsive, improv-heavy GMing style. One of the players makes a character whos motivation is getting rich by joining the local mob. He gets an offer from a contact to help out on a job, which is standing lookout on a debt collection. So I find myself describing how the PCs contact and attendant goons knock on a guy's door and proceed to break his kneecaps with a baseball bat while his family watches in horror. The idea being to confront the PC with "here's some easily predictable violence which your character is about to get mixed up in, what do you do" Thing is, as I'm describing this I realize that I'm weirding myself the gently caress out - turns out a scene of someone being violently beaten while begging for leniency is actually pretty hosed up, and I'm getting uncomfortable narrating it (doesn't help I was playing both sides, so to speak). So I end up cutting the scene and backing off from it because I wasn't comfortable with continuing. Point being, in my own experience descriptions of violence, if framed in a way which highlights that violence is actually bad and hosed up, can very much be a non-starter in a game. In the other direction, you can totally have a game in which sex features with about as much charge as describing how you totally cut the arm off that goblin that was badass. It's all a matter of tone and presentation, really.
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May 1, 2023 11:33
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ItohRespectArmy posted:i will say while the topic of sex moves comes up I have to say that my very favourite one is The Mortal from monsterhearts. The Mortal is the one clear, obvious hint that it started as Twilight parody, and it's glorious.
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May 1, 2023 13:09
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KingKalamari posted:I think another thing that contributes to the polarizing nature of the Sex Moves, at least from a game design perspective, has to do with the assumed default POV of TTRPGs. I'm probably going to be doing some of my usual fumbling to concretely explain very abstract concepts that make sense in my head, but I think it's actually an interesting topic that doesn't get enough discussion. I don't think you did a bad job but I'd like to put it another way, someone coming from D&D etc. would think perhaps that their character having a "sex move" means they can inflict sex upon another character whenever they want. I think the core problem is saying "hey let's play [PBTA] game" to people and showing them playbooks without making sure they knew it was a much different kind of game than they may be used to. Monsterhearts especially seems like a game you need complete and total buy-in from everyone involved to work.
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May 1, 2023 13:34
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While just having gotten Spirit of 77 on a whim, this looks like something quite easy to work with as long as enough of your players are pop culture overdosed. Also noticed going by the timeline, and at least some of the stuff referenced, you could absolutely have PCs who've tangled with Jonas Venture and co and/or are former MSF.
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May 1, 2023 13:57
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Ghost Leviathan posted:While just having gotten Spirit of 77 on a whim, this looks like something quite easy to work with as long as enough of your players are pop culture overdosed.
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May 1, 2023 14:34
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Alderman posted:Point being, in my own experience descriptions of violence, if framed in a way which highlights that violence is actually bad and hosed up, can very much be a non-starter in a game. Yeah. I have no problem in normal fantasy action violence descriptions when I play D&D, while I was really disturbed by some stuff I did one of my VtM characters do, even though it was way less violent. Framing and tone are just that important.
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May 1, 2023 16:39
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Servetus posted:I don't think the part I bolded is necessarily true. You're missing two huge parts of it. You can only take a maximum of two advances from outside your playbook without changing your playbook. And you can change your playbook from your sixth advance onwards. Also every single playbook has at least three possible stat advances - and those are generic. So it is entirely possible to make your starting playbook, advance twice in another playbook, take three stat advances, and then change entirely to a different playbook. I just do not understand this criticism other than that yes if you want something outside the rules you need a new class. quote:Want to play as a Werewolf in Monsterhearts? Than you have to be a Jealousy monster, no you absolutely can't be Poly or form a thruple or be Asexual for that matter. You have to be psychotically jealous because that's what the Playbook is about and if that's not what Werewolf means to you than you are screwed. For me, the problem was never about the Sex. Want to play Lestat in a game of Buffy? You're gonna struggle. No one ever said Monsterhearts was a generic game.
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May 1, 2023 17:43
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neonchameleon posted:
I think it's valid criticism that Apocalypse World and Monsterhearts do not sufficiently frame themselves as narrow niche games, and many people come to them with the wrong expectation. Part of this is on the designers, I doubt that Vincent Baker expected AW to explode into it's own genre, but part of it is also on the fans of the system who push it onto everything. I say this fully aware that I used AW for a very broad genre game, which has been pointed out to me by many AW purists.
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May 1, 2023 18:28
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Bucnasti posted:I think it's valid criticism that Apocalypse World and Monsterhearts do not sufficiently frame themselves as narrow niche games, and many people come to them with the wrong expectation. Part of this is on the designers, I doubt that Vincent Baker expected AW to explode into it's own genre, but part of it is also on the fans of the system who push it onto everything. While I haven't played AW or MH, I have played Masks and that while superheroes are involved what it's actually about is teenagers who often have powerful abilities struggling with identity and perception and if you play it like a bog standard supers game where you're trying to leverage the best roll for Unleash Powers because you're the team blaster you're going to have a very mid time at best.
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May 1, 2023 18:33
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Bucnasti posted:I think it's valid criticism that Apocalypse World and Monsterhearts do not sufficiently frame themselves as narrow niche games, and many people come to them with the wrong expectation. Part of this is on the designers, I doubt that Vincent Baker expected AW to explode into it's own genre, but part of it is also on the fans of the system who push it onto everything. I mean, there are sections in the book about tone and genre and what kind of stories AW is for. If you actually have read and understood the rules, it’s quite clear when you’re going “off label” mechanically. (And I say that as someone who likes to.) As is people complain about the writing being over the top, how much clearer can it be? You can’t solve people not reading by writing more.
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May 1, 2023 19:00
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Dawgstar posted:While I haven't played AW or MH, I have played Masks and that while superheroes are involved what it's actually about is teenagers who often have powerful abilities struggling with identity and perception and if you play it like a bog standard supers game where you're trying to leverage the best roll for Unleash Powers because you're the team blaster you're going to have a very mid time at best. Yeah I've never read or played Masks, but that's the vague impression I've gotten from it. Despite that I've also seen people recommend it as a generic "best superhero game".
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May 1, 2023 19:57
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Bucnasti posted:Yeah I've never read or played Masks, but that's the vague impression I've gotten from it. Despite that I've also seen people recommend it as a generic "best superhero game". It's head and shoulders above its competition because a lot of super hero stuff that masks is emulating, focuses a lot on interpersonal drama and coming of age angst instead of calculating how much real world physics would break if the Flash ran at you and hit you. Mutants and Masterminds and a lot of super hero games like it miss the forest for the trees in that regard, because if you say you want to play a character LIKE Spider-Man you're not just wanting to play a strong guy who zips around, you want to play someone whose work life balance includes a green guy. edit: that said, masks puts SUCH an emphasis on being a YOUNG hero and teen drama that it's not a gonna be good for a Justice League or Avengers or X-Men or Doom Patrol game. Ominous Jazz fucked around with this message at 20:15 on May 1, 2023 |
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May 1, 2023 20:11
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Bucnasti posted:Yeah I've never read or played Masks, but that's the vague impression I've gotten from it. Despite that I've also seen people recommend it as a generic "best superhero game".
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May 1, 2023 20:12
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Servetus posted:I don't think the part I bolded is necessarily true. I think this really does get at the heart of why I really do not like PBTA. Everything is so one-dimensional, you can only ever do the one genre that the author had in mind while making the book. I can talk poo poo about World of Darkness all day but I've had way more varied and fun experiences with those games, while PBTA feels so rote and paint-by-the-numbers. I've always wondered why I hated the "playbook" term and, thinking about it, it's because its so upfront about how programmatic the game is. "Here is your playbook, you are CHARACTER THE DEV ONCE SAW IN BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER. When the GM prompts you, use DO WHAT SPIKE WOULD DO move to advance plot." Whirling fucked around with this message at 20:40 on May 1, 2023 |
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May 1, 2023 20:14
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Whirling posted:I think this really does get at the heart of why I really do not like PBTA. Everything is so one-dimensional, you can only ever do the one genre that the author had in mind while making the book. I can talk poo poo about World of Darkness all day but I've had way more varied and fun experiences with those games, while PBTA feels so rote and paint-by-the-numbers. I've always wondered why I hated the "playbook" term and, thinking about it, it's because its so upfront about how programmatic the game is. "Here is your playbook, you are CHARACTER THE DEV ONCE SAW IN BUFFY THE VAMPIRE. When the GM prompts you, use DO WHAT SPIKE WOULD DO move to advance plot." The thing is that conversely it's much easier to successfully have a good game in that narrow scope in PbtA than have a successful good game (especially with thematic consistency) in a game with a wider scope and more room to play around like a World of Darkness game. It's not bad, it's a different approach to creating a good experience and PbtA is absolutely definitely successful at what it tries to do for many games and many players.
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May 1, 2023 20:41
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Bucnasti posted:I think it's valid criticism that Apocalypse World and Monsterhearts do not sufficiently frame themselves as narrow niche games Monsterhearts is very clear about exactly what sort of game it is, so I don't feel that's an issue. AW does just expect you to pick up on the vibe, but it was the first PbtA game, so it has at least that excuse.
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May 1, 2023 20:41
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I think that's a reductive reading of PBTA in general. But I'll grant you that Monsterhearts inspired a lot of homebrew playbooks that were just SPECIFIC CHARACTER FROM THING, particularly the Skins for the Skinless.
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May 1, 2023 20:45
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So a couple months ago Steve Jackson Games did a Kickstarter for what they called "The Box of Astonishments" which was basically them filling boxes with random stuff from their warehouses, supposedly an estimated $160 value for only $100, well mine arrived today and honestly I'm very underwhelmed with what I got, as about 85% of the box's contents were pretty much just novelty dice and random Munchkin bits(they did include one full Munchkin game at least, a copy of Munchkin Legends so at least most of it is theoretically usable since they're meant to be mixed and matched), like I knew the contents were going to be random but still definitely a bit disappointed and not really feeling I got my money's worth either
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May 1, 2023 22:17
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I think there's a reason games with a narrow focus tend to be... better than sprawling generic systems. That isn't to say sprawling generic systems are inherently bad, but I do think it's much harder to design a good one.
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May 1, 2023 22:23
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drrockso20 posted:So a couple months ago Steve Jackson Games did a Kickstarter for what they called "The Box of Astonishments" which was basically them filling boxes with random stuff from their warehouses, supposedly an estimated $160 value for only $100, well mine arrived today and honestly I'm very underwhelmed with what I got, as about 85% of the box's contents were pretty much just novelty dice and random Munchkin bits(they did include one full Munchkin game at least, a copy of Munchkin Legends so at least most of it is theoretically usable since they're meant to be mixed and matched), like I knew the contents were going to be random but still definitely a bit disappointed and not really feeling I got my money's worth either This does sound kind of disappointing, although I guess it's not a shock that most of the SJG warehouse is Munchkin add-on crap. I would buy a deal like that if it were just random old GURPS books, but I suspect I'm a niche market.
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May 1, 2023 22:32
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Antivehicular posted:This does sound kind of disappointing, although I guess it's not a shock that most of the SJG warehouse is Munchkin add-on crap. I would buy a deal like that if it were just random old GURPS books, but I suspect I'm a niche market. yeah, I would never touch SJG's stuff without better definition than "random stuff". Mantic's crazy boxes are better defined, from a smaller set of potential stuff, and I definitely got value from those.
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May 1, 2023 22:49
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Colonel Cool posted:I think there's a reason games with a narrow focus tend to be... better than sprawling generic systems. That isn't to say sprawling generic systems are inherently bad, but I do think it's much harder to design a good one. This has been a topic of discussion in my circle for a while now. We've tried some PbtA games that didn't narrow the focus enough, and they rarely work well. Impulse Drive and Monster of the Week both try to support play inspired by a few different dissimilar sources. If the players don't all have a common understanding of that source material and a deep discussion of which variation they're in, you end up with a group that has no reason to stay together, a group that's out of whack power-wise, or worse. AW, however much it may seem limiting, has a focus that makes it a pretty good sausage machine for genre stories. It's not just about characters having interesting moves in their own playbooks, either. Especially in AW 2E, the barter economy and the way the moves are allocated keep pushing you to engage positively with other PCs even as the differences in your motivations push you to engage negatively instead. These games mostly have terrible support for "I just want to goof around in a shared imagined space," and for that sort of player, you definitely want something else.
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May 1, 2023 23:00
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Yeah when I saw that SJG thing I immediately thought to myself "I don't need a bunch of random Munchkin stuff" cuz I'm sure that's what their warehouse is full of. The things I'd actually want, like old Car Wars and Gurps books have probably all been cleared out to make room for more munchkin spinoffs. Good for old Stevie for making some dollars, but Munchkin is not my thing.
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May 1, 2023 23:05
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Yeah, I can't begrudge SJG their Munchkinbux given how much value I've gotten out of GURPS over the years, particularly in high school -- amazing fun:cost ratio on those splatbooks -- but there's just not much the company is putting out that I want anymore.
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May 1, 2023 23:17
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I too would have been interested in a bunch of weird game sourcebooks - I love GURPS but I'd also be down for anything else they have since SJG stuff is usually good quality - but I didn't roll the dice because I had this weird feeling it would return with a box of Munchkin poo poo.
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May 2, 2023 01:44
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The problem with AW is that it's such an easy game to introduce to newbies or casual gamers and instantly have a thematic story in a tight and satisfying system, while being full of good advice for new GMs. Except nobody wants to sit down with their friends and say "this game proves you don't need to be a nerdy weirdo to understand and enjoy RPGs, now let me explain how sex moves work".
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May 2, 2023 05:22
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I'm inclined to just use Fellowship as the intro pbta, especially since it also occupies a genre space adjacent to D&D (diverse cast of characters go on a fantasy adventure) that illustrates how it differs from D&D in its core philosophy. As someone who strongly prefers medium-crunch high-tactics games (which would include D&D if I cared at all for its default aesthetics or that of its campaign settings), it did a lot to really contextualize what pbta games were in terms I was able to really grasp.
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May 2, 2023 09:14
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PerniciousKnid posted:The problem with AW is that it's such an easy game to introduce to newbies or casual gamers and instantly have a thematic story in a tight and satisfying system, while being full of good advice for new GMs. Except nobody wants to sit down with their friends and say "this game proves you don't need to be a nerdy weirdo to understand and enjoy RPGs, now let me explain how sex moves work".
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May 2, 2023 09:18
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Splicer posted:Shadow of the Demon Lord has a similar issue. Do you want to play a game very similar to D&D but better? Please ignore the blood poop demons.
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May 2, 2023 12:28
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SotDL's caster issues could be partially fixed so simply by granting characters Power per level regardless of what class they are, so that if you've been a Warrior->Fighter all this time but finally decide, gently caress it, for my Master class I'm going Pyromancer, then you get access to the top-shelf Fire spells immediately.
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May 2, 2023 12:57
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I like SotDL but its problems aren't the kind you can fix with a quick patch. It's got a good core system, the actual rules vary from decent to great (I love its version of initiative, in particular)... but then you get to the actual content, player-facing and GM-facing and it's a mess. Classes aren't just unbalanced, they're badly designed: 4E-style Defenders and even Warlords exist in SotDL, but as campaign-ending capstones for some insane reason. There are something like a dozen different Haste effects across the game's published first-party books, many of which stack with each other multiplicatively. Healing powers are split between minor and standard actions (mostly depending on whether they're spells or not) and heal for 4E-like proportions... except monster damage in SotDL is typically much more lethal, so using your whole turn to heal is usually a bad trade. Metamagic is the exclusive function of a single path, and is exactly as busted as it ever was. Monsters are overwhelmingly designed to punish players for daring to make a melee character, with close-range attacks almost invariably featuring astronomical damage and nasty status effects. I give them a certain amount of credit for including so many player options at all as an indie company -- I've seen plenty of games that expect you to stat everything up yourself from scratch with less guidance, and I'd take unbalanced options over none. But on the other hand, it feels like the trade-off was they literally never playtested any of it, especially once you go outside the core book. If you had the time and the will you could build an awesome game on SotDL's bones. The problem, of course, is you would pretty much have to build an entire game. e: also if i understand correctly, this is exactly how LANCER was developed 
Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 13:28 on May 2, 2023 |
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May 2, 2023 13:19
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Well, maybe Shadow of the Weird Wizard does this rework. And gets rid of the poop demons.
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May 2, 2023 13:30
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Can't remember if Weird Wizard gutted Power entirely or not, but the playtest stuff I skimmed through did mention that all spells have their own individual cast limits. Default is 1 but a lot of lower level spells get extra casts per day. Seems a bit more fair to martial classes dabbling in magic. Still, starting to wonder if I care all that much about balance these days. I like SOTDL and 4e because you can have a lot of fun with anything in it, I don't actually care about whether or not the bow wielders are in a better position than the sword wielders in them. I hate D&D 5e because half the classes in it are tedious; if a fighter was genuinely fun to play and had diverse options beyond "attack 3 times in a round" in 5e, I wouldn't give a poo poo if a caster is technically "better", that's MMO brain poo poo to care that much.
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May 2, 2023 20:03
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Even non-casting characters in SotDL became quite a chore, ime. Even the very simplest. We needed to write up a flowchart for our pretty typical bashy warrior, with all the special cases under which they get more Boons while trying to smash things. And the "level up once a session" thing is a neat core concept or pitch - but even stretched to every other session, that's not nearly enough time to learn or even try out the new things you just picked up. I really, really wanted to like it, but I'm with Tuxedo Catfish that its problems run too deep for a simple fix.
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May 2, 2023 23:26
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I always thought it was funny that even if you bought all the way into the AW sex moves and formed a big RPG story around yours and how it works and how your finding a moment of tenderness in a blasted world and tried to shelter that hope and take heart in it, one of the playbooks move was "no one else gets to use their sex move if you have sex with them."
theironjef fucked around with this message at 16:21 on May 3, 2023 |
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May 3, 2023 16:18
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theironjef posted:I always thought it was funny that even if you bought all the way into the AW sex moves and formed a big RPG story around yours and how it works and how your finding a moment of tenderness in a blasted world and tried to shelter that hope and take heart in it, one of the playbooks move was "no one else gets to use their sex move if you have sex with them." That ain't a Murphy's Rule and is entirely intended. The Battlebabe is not a sensitive and giving lover.
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May 3, 2023 17:13
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I can't remember any post-apocalyptic films with the kind of loving that Apocalypse World wants you to do, so I feel like this is just a weird thing the devs wanted.
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May 3, 2023 17:28
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