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Ravus Ursus posted:This is something that people fail to understand and it baffles me. I've seen people back a Kickstarter, no on the community discord and start demanding instant access to the final pdf of an rpg. Or ask when it's shipping, or when they get charged because they used their spouse/parent/siblings credit card or some such. This is a thing that's technically and legally correct, but I feel like there's more to the story than just dumb backers who still don't understand how Kickstarter works (though to be clear, there are definitely plenty of those). A non-zero amount of fault here lies with companies who do essentially treat Kickstarter as a preorder storefront in terms of how they present their projects, and give backers the impression that what they are doing is essentially putting money down for a thing that appears far more along in production and "guaranteed" than it actually is. Look at that Rainbow 6 KS that's imploding and check out what the main page looks like, slick graphics showcasing renders of spiffy miniatures and 3D terrain and everything. That doesn't look like "yeah we scratched out a few ideas on paper," the whole thing looks like the sort of professional presentation you would see for a product which actually exists and not just an aspirational game that might exist at some point down the line. And even outside of things which flop miserably, there are successful Kickstarter projects which are run by bigger companies which also utilize Kickstarter as a preorder service, which I imagine only contributes to the persistent and unshakable idea that KS is some sort of storefront which can somehow be held accountable for things like delays, failed projects, etc.
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May 3, 2023 04:31
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Kai Tave posted:This is a thing that's technically and legally correct, but I feel like there's more to the story than just dumb backers who still don't understand how Kickstarter works (though to be clear, there are definitely plenty of those). A non-zero amount of fault here lies with companies who do essentially treat Kickstarter as a preorder storefront in terms of how they present their projects, and give backers the impression that what they are doing is essentially putting money down for a thing that appears far more along in production and "guaranteed" than it actually is. Look at that Rainbow 6 KS that's imploding and check out what the main page looks like, slick graphics showcasing renders of spiffy miniatures and 3D terrain and everything. That doesn't look like "yeah we scratched out a few ideas on paper," the whole thing looks like the sort of professional presentation you would see for a product which actually exists and not just an aspirational game that might exist at some point down the line. I feel like that's sort of what Kickstarter is "supposed" to be for, really? In the TTRPG/tabletop space in particular it always seemed that the idea was to, well, kickstart the high up-front costs of print publishing, rather than pay for the whole of development. If I'm an investor in the sense that I'm investing in something risky, rather than putting up the money for something almost assured, the way Kickstarter doesn't make projects give you a rigorous risk breakdown seems a bit irresponsible. Yeah, people can throw their money at whatever they want, but Kickstarter isn't a platform that has the tools necessary to be an investment platform for venture capitalists, even small-time ones. I'm paying a lump sum for a single product. That really feels more like a preorder storefront than an investment platform: backing projects on Kickstarter doesn't make me feel like a capitalist oppressor. It rather makes me feel like the oppressed. 
LatwPIAT fucked around with this message at 07:56 on May 3, 2023 |
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May 3, 2023 07:53
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It was supposed to be for bringing projects to life that otherwise wouldn't exist at all, and not as a preorder platform without consumer protection, until they saw the money that pulled in. Much like "fund my life" projects were banned until Penny Arcade ran one that made millions.
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May 3, 2023 08:02
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LatwPIAT posted:I feel like that's sort of what Kickstarter is "supposed" to be for, really? In the TTRPG/tabletop space in particular it always seemed that the idea was to, well, kickstart the high up-front costs of print publishing, rather than pay for the whole of development. If I'm an investor in the sense that I'm investing in something risky, rather than putting up the money for something almost assured, the way Kickstarter doesn't make projects give you a rigorous risk breakdown seems a bit irresponsible. Yeah, people can throw their money at whatever they want, but Kickstarter isn't a platform that has the tools necessary to be an investment platform for venture capitalists, even small-time ones. My point, perhaps made poorly, is that a lot of Kickstarters use very slick promotional materials which make it seem like a game is much more "complete" than it actually is. Yes, Kickstarter is supposed to be for getting money up front to pay for development costs that you otherwise couldn't manage yourself, but my point is more about the perception people have of Kickstarter as a preorder store rather than investing in an incomplete project. Kickstarter isn't a preorder store, no matter how many people might try to treat it as one. There's an onus on the part of backers to understand that. But the onus isn't entirely on backers, imo, because publishers also love to muddy the waters for their own benefit.
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May 3, 2023 08:04
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In this specific case, there's also a recognisable name behind the project. Mythic has been around for almost 10 years and they have 13 projects on Kickstarter, all of them big box games like this one. Companies go broke all the time, especially in a recession and especially if their product is niche, but it wasn't something to be expected as a strong possibility at the time the project was launched - inherent dangers of KS notwithstanding.
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May 3, 2023 08:08
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Not sure why nobody'd consider it likely, we've seen any number of former big name companies in the TTRPG space implode over a bad product dev cycle or two.
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May 3, 2023 09:41
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Liquid Communism posted:Not sure why nobody'd consider it likely, we've seen any number of former big name companies in the TTRPG space implode over a bad product dev cycle or two.
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May 3, 2023 09:51
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A thing that I think should invite caution is any company, no matter how stable seeming, having several outstanding crowdfunding projects. And I've never done anything with Mythic but my impression is that that was fairly standard practice for them - it's worse because of COVID woes, of course, which no one could have predicted, but there have been quite a few companies that have died off because they had this practice and then something got in the way of that rolling cash flow and...boom. out of commission with potentially 4-5 projects unfulfilled. I know I made the mistake of doing that with both Blacklist and Petersen Games, and like...those guys are still posting and there's some movement and who knows maybe those games will get out to backers someday but I have some pretty significant doubts. That probably won't stop me from backing Awaken Realms stuff, though.
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May 3, 2023 14:55
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I got Mythic Battles Pantheon years ago, and when I backed Hel by Mythic Games I think I must have thought it was actually Monolith, the producer of Mythic Battles. I think. Anyway, I regret backing it now.
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May 3, 2023 16:31
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Here's a Kickstarter that should succeed: Mythworks (formerly Mythopoeia) is running a crowdfunding campaign for The Wildsea: Storm and Root. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/stormandroot/the-wildsea-storm-and-root/description This is already free in digital if you backed the original Kickstarter. ("Is already" as in "you'll get it for free when it's done".) Felix Isaacs has been pretty transparent about development in the Wildsea Discord. There's enough people who want "more" Wildsea that they've decided to release it in hardcopy. Also, related: Someone at Mythworks must have had a good game of golf with the team behind the Alchemy VTT because both Wildsea and CBR+PNK are coming to that platform.
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May 3, 2023 16:35
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Citizen Sleeper was one of my favorite video games last year, and apparently there's going to be a table-top solo RPG coming next year (along with an art book, vinyl soundtrack, etc): https://www.lostincult.co.uk/citizensleeper, crowdfunding as already met the goal but it's running through July 2nd.
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May 3, 2023 16:50
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malkav11 posted:Blacklist The hard 180 of that company from the moment Lim appeared was breakneck. Almost as fast as the speed with which the Satler brothers bailed of even pretending they were ever related to the project.
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May 4, 2023 04:13
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Not sure if there has been any chance to do this at this point, but was anyone able to try the new game from Travis/Indie Board&Cards? It looks like a reimplementation of Aeon's End, which I enjoyed, but I'm trying to figure out what's different and if it's enough to justify buying in. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ibcgames/astro-knights-eternity
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May 4, 2023 12:05
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That Italian Guy posted:Not sure if there has been any chance to do this at this point, but was anyone able to try the new game from Travis/Indie Board&Cards? It looks like a reimplementation of Aeon's End, which I enjoyed, but I'm trying to figure out what's different and if it's enough to justify buying in. I literally heard nothing about it. I would love to hear how it turned out as well!
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May 4, 2023 13:14
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Have you guys seen this one yet? Dungeon maps but they're pop up books. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sitgreen/dungeons-pop-immersive-pop-up-tabletop-rpg-battle-maps/description
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May 4, 2023 14:53
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That Italian Guy posted:Not sure if there has been any chance to do this at this point, but was anyone able to try the new game from Travis/Indie Board&Cards? It looks like a reimplementation of Aeon's End, which I enjoyed, but I'm trying to figure out what's different and if it's enough to justify buying in. I haven't but I've seen previews. Big differences are that you're buying from randomized piles of cards (but in certain parameters) instead of fixed sets of the same cards, and everyone's slots for ("weapons", in this, spells in AE) are the same. There's also some tweaks to how bosses work (no general pool of baddies to mix in with their unique stuff, for one thing). Far as I can tell it's something that people who didn't get into Aeon's End might find a bit more accessible or appealing (sci-fi theme, for example) and not enough different to warrant buying as someone who's got all the Aeon's End stuff, like me. I also feel like there are elements that are a mild improvement but others that seem like a step down - I dunno about the randomized market but I definitely liked different mages having the potential for different spell slot setups, for example.
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May 4, 2023 14:59
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That Italian Guy posted:Not sure if there has been any chance to do this at this point, but was anyone able to try the new game from Travis/Indie Board&Cards? It looks like a reimplementation of Aeon's End, which I enjoyed, but I'm trying to figure out what's different and if it's enough to justify buying in. I skipped the first kickstarter for it because I had (and still have) a bunch of unplayed Aeon's End content. The Astro Knights base game is on Amazon now, and there are several new (last few months) reviews of it on BGG if you want to see more than just the initial reviews. I am interested in it, and may pick it up at some point, but Aeon's End is keeping me entertained for the time being so if I bought Astro Knights it would just sit on a shelf. https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/352179/astro-knights
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May 4, 2023 15:54
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armorer posted:I skipped the first kickstarter for it because I had (and still have) a bunch of unplayed Aeon's End content. The Astro Knights base game is on Amazon now, and there are several new (last few months) reviews of it on BGG if you want to see more than just the initial reviews. I am interested in it, and may pick it up at some point, but Aeon's End is keeping me entertained for the time being so if I bought Astro Knights it would just sit on a shelf.
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May 4, 2023 16:04
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That Italian Guy posted:Thanks everyone, it looks like I'm going to skip this. If the base game is already out there are cheaper ways for me to get it if I changed my mind compared to 20-30€ shipping on KS. I may try this in Essen later this year, but I also have still leftover AE content to play. Not sure about EU, but the US Amazon links are: Base Game https://www.amazon.com/Indie-Game-Studios-Astro-Knights/dp/B09VMM2BHH Orion Expansion https://www.amazon.com/Astro-Knights-Orion-Board-Game/dp/B0BSHC6JJQ
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May 4, 2023 16:10
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xK1 posted:Citizen Sleeper was one of my favorite video games last year, and apparently there's going to be a table-top solo RPG coming next year (along with an art book, vinyl soundtrack, etc): https://www.lostincult.co.uk/citizensleeper, crowdfunding as already met the goal but it's running through July 2nd. ah gently caress the rpg side is only £30 and includes the tarot deck
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May 4, 2023 16:11
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In a backer-only post, Bandit Camp (of Wicked Ones fame) announced that they've backburnered Relics (after collecting shipping in February so they could pair it with their Wicked Ones reprint) because life has taken them in a new direction. They're going to finish Relics at a slower pace and then retire from RPG writing. I'm a little bummed. Wicked Ones was best in class for Forged in the Dark RPGs for me, so I backed at a pretty high level. If this doesn't ship this'll basically be the first KS I've backed that has collected and not shipped. Sucks, but such is the risk.
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May 4, 2023 23:01
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I've never used any crowdfunding platform except kickstarter until today, when i used indiegogo for that new torchbearer book. Before I checked out it tacked on a ten dollar tip though? Whats up with that?
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May 4, 2023 23:16
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That Italian Guy posted:Not sure if there has been any chance to do this at this point, but was anyone able to try the new game from Travis/Indie Board&Cards? It looks like a reimplementation of Aeon's End, which I enjoyed, but I'm trying to figure out what's different and if it's enough to justify buying in. It passes the test for "AE but quicker setup" with flying colors. But in my eyes, it flips the script a bit - where AE was mostly a 2p game (or 2-handed solo, or occasionally a 3p game), I feel like this game leans a lot on "help your buddies out", and is punishingly short for 2p, so it feels best at 3 or 4. I really dig the tech ability to spend money to fire a card's effect once, then shuffle to the bottom, as it gives an easy option when otherwise 2 money is useless. Past that, I'm a little sour that the pitch for Astro Knights was "we learned a lot over 7 boxes of AE, so we wanted to start fresh with a bunch of cool poo poo we learned!" and then the first box is basically JUST the "short setup" and this 2nd box is "here's the poo poo we learned!" There's also not any reason why the expedition mode from years ago wasn't in the first box, but is in this one.
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May 4, 2023 23:53
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JoeRules posted:I passed on the first Kickstarter, but started FOMOing once it started to show up to folks, so I nabbed the game from Boardlandia and the expansion from Amazon. quote:Enjoy these amazing prices ...
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May 5, 2023 08:46
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It's time for reimplementations I guess: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/direwolfdigital/clank-legacy-2-acquisitions-incorporated-darkest-magic What's the thread consensus on Clank: Legacy?
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May 5, 2023 13:05
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That Italian Guy posted:It's time for reimplementations I guess: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/direwolfdigital/clank-legacy-2-acquisitions-incorporated-darkest-magic You need to like Clank. If you didn't like the original, it's not going to convince you. My group does like Clank, though less so than Dominion; it's our favorite deckbuilding also-ran. We had a good time. The narrative is slightly less satisfying but also at times feels more open-ended compared to Pandemic Legacy 1 and 2. We found its brand of humor genuinely funny and I don't recall many (if any) mechanical twists that were not well received.
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May 5, 2023 13:26
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That Italian Guy posted:It's time for reimplementations I guess: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/direwolfdigital/clank-legacy-2-acquisitions-incorporated-darkest-magic There's no reason to back this. It's coming to retail, the stretch goals are a nothing burger, and Clank Legacy is regularly $30-40 cheaper than MSRP. Clank is already really popular so it's almost guaranteed you'll be able to pick this up for cheaper when it comes to retail.
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May 5, 2023 15:56
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That Italian Guy posted:It's time for reimplementations I guess: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/direwolfdigital/clank-legacy-2-acquisitions-incorporated-darkest-magic If you like Clank you'll love Clank Legacy. I'm very tempted to get this and sit on it for a year or three until my goddaughter is old enough to play with us.
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May 6, 2023 03:48
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WaywardWoodwose posted:I've never used any crowdfunding platform except kickstarter until today, when i used indiegogo for that new torchbearer book. Before I checked out it tacked on a ten dollar tip though? Whats up with that? Because they can, apparently. It's possible to get a refund, based on a comment on the project about it. You can also set it to zero.
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May 8, 2023 05:13
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Outgunned, from the team who made Broken Compass, is on Kickstarter. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2lm/outgunned Seems to be a modern incarnation of Feng Shui and I am here for it. Free Quickstart rules to see what the fuss is about. Dice pool matching for mechanic.
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May 10, 2023 17:51
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In surprising news, 6: Siege has received more than 150% of what they were asking for in voluntary contributions. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1162110258/6-siege-the-board-game/posts/3806053
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May 12, 2023 17:58
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That Italian Guy posted:In surprising news, 6: Siege has received more than 150% of what they were asking for in voluntary contributions. And backers are going to receive less than 50% of what they pledged for.
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May 12, 2023 20:13
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Sixty-odd bucks for base game seems ridiculously cheap for that campaign. I suppose that's partly why it went the way it did.
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May 12, 2023 21:46
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The Eyes Have It posted:Sixty-odd bucks for base game seems ridiculously cheap for that campaign. I suppose that's partly why it went the way it did. It was deeply tucked from conception, yeah.
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May 13, 2023 16:01
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The Eyes Have It posted:Sixty-odd bucks for base game seems ridiculously cheap for that campaign. I suppose that's partly why it went the way it did.
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May 13, 2023 18:18
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That Italian Guy posted:Yeah I only backed the base set cause it felt like a really good bang for your bucks. They were probably banking on a lot more people going deep in the very high tiers. I recently backed the Lancer: the Videogame KS and the author had a very detailed breakdown of the whole campaign, including all the nitty gritty details we are not normally made aware of. In her case the higher number of backers was for the base tier, the "veteran" tier had less backer but procured slightly more funding and the very top tiers had a very low backer count but accounted for almost 1/4 of the whole funding. Probably. I know with Aeon Trespass the base pledge was a frankly ridiculously low $130 (I don't know if they expected the resultant game to be as enormous and content-packed as it ended up, but even if it was scoped around Kingdom Death core box levels, that thing now has an MSRP of $400) but the two expansion cycles were much more and I think in the end most people still ended up going all-in.
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May 14, 2023 05:53
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malkav11 posted:Probably. I know with Aeon Trespass the base pledge was a frankly ridiculously low $130 (I don't know if they expected the resultant game to be as enormous and content-packed as it ended up, but even if it was scoped around Kingdom Death core box levels, that thing now has an MSRP of $400) but the two expansion cycles were much more and I think in the end most people still ended up going all-in. iirc somewhere they mentioned AT: O only broke even and while they were trying to give a good deal and get a following they still priced it too low, not sure if that was just in general or because of covid but yeah. speaking of which they've got a reprint plus a new game, Sins of Herakles, starting in a couple of days: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingdomsforlorn/aeon-trespass-odyssey-second-printing?ref=ex8vr2&token=03ab9617 looks pretty cool
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May 14, 2023 07:33
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I think it was on the Eldritch Lorecast that I've heard about a company doing a $1mil+ on KS and someone commenting ,"that's great, we are ruined" - because of the way the backers were skewed towards certain less profitable tiers instead of the majority going for a digital only pledge.
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May 14, 2023 11:29
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"The million dollar order that sinks a company" is a thing for sure, but usually it's because of needing to scale in an unsustainable way in order to service an unexpected and huge level of sales. Not because everyone came for the cheap pizza but aren't staying for dessert so now you're broke, although that can do it too.
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May 14, 2023 14:27
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Also why going ham with components upgrade stretch goals is a ridiculously dumb idea if you haven’t already priced them in to every tier. …or stretch goals in general.
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