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stephenthinkpad posted:A patriot missile is 4 mil a shot and you always shoot two. So it's about the same cost. Maybe they couldn't get the railgun to work at all? IIRC, you have to change the barrel every half dozen shots too.
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May 8, 2023 18:31
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Raskolnikov38 posted:also it was supposed to have a rail gun but they scrapped it after the ammo cost like $10 million a shot it does have a railgun i think but they definitely didn't make any shells for it
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May 8, 2023 18:39
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Last I read the Chinese naval railgun program was progressing well and they've already mounted one on a test ship.
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May 8, 2023 18:39
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CODChimera posted:https://twitter.com/anders_aslund/status/1655218769583566848 Milley was one of the more pessimistic voices wrt the ukraine effort iirc so really they're just getting rid of any dissenting opinion contrary to "total victory over russia" lol
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May 8, 2023 18:40
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Basic Poster posted:its also fun that a single Chinese shipyard has more thru-put and capacity than all the US shipyards combined. and they have 13 ship yards total pumping out combat and support ships. i think they surpassed us in ship count and we don’t have the parties or enough private sector desire or know how to meet them. lol people really think they're gonna Arsenal of Democracy their way out of this one too.
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May 8, 2023 19:16
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skooma512 posted:lol people really think they're gonna Arsenal of Democracy their way out of this one too. America will pivot to supplying china with future weapons. It would be a huge boon to the MIC and advance our geopolitical agenda in the region, or something.
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May 8, 2023 19:41
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Bar Ran Dun posted:brown water tug / laker folks. They built subs during WWII, they know about galvanic corrosion. This is more like musk, they are going to do things wrong out of FIRST PRINCIPLES to make sure it still needs to be done that way. Unlike musk, they aren't doing it that way because they are dumbasses, they just know they can get paid for the work and the rework.
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May 8, 2023 19:47
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They even got a guy named James Kirk to be the captain of the Zumwalt. It's like yeah that sounds like a Musk thing to do.
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May 8, 2023 19:55
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stephenthinkpad posted:A patriot missile is 4 mil a shot and you always shoot two. So it's about the same cost. Maybe they couldn't get the railgun to work at all? more like $1 mil on average (cheaper for PAC-2 and CRI, more expensive for MSE) and you can shoot 1 just fine. You typically shoot two at ballistic missiles, not stuff like cruise missiles.
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May 8, 2023 20:07
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skooma512 posted:lol people really think they're gonna Arsenal of Democracy their way out of this one too. People are stuck in a fantasy that America still has serious industrial capacity, infrastructure, and political will to do that again
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May 8, 2023 20:27
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KomradeX posted:People are stuck in a fantasy that America still has serious industrial capacity, infrastructure, and political will to do that again People in this thread even
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May 8, 2023 20:44
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KomradeX posted:People are stuck in a fantasy that America still has serious industrial capacity, infrastructure, and political will to do that again yeah it’s crazy to see people compare gdp, as if the vast majority of the us economy isn’t financial speculation and rentier bullshit. it hasn’t quite permeated the popular imagination that it’s been the chinese century since 2008
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May 8, 2023 20:46
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BitcoinRockefeller posted:They built subs during WWII, they know about galvanic corrosion. This is more like musk, they are going to do things wrong out of FIRST PRINCIPLES to make sure it still needs to be done that way. Unlike musk, they aren't doing it that way because they are dumbasses, they just know they can get paid for the work and the rework. I'm sure Musk will get paid to rebuild the launch pad that he just destroyed.
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May 8, 2023 20:47
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Centrist Committee posted:yeah it’s crazy to see people compare gdp, as if the vast majority of the us economy isn’t financial speculation and rentier bullshit. it hasn’t quite permeated the popular imagination that it’s been the chinese century since 2008 Like I always come back to rationing. Modern America is too ideologically opposed to do anything like a rationing program to survive a war effort that doesn't end in 48 hours with nukes, and even if it somehow found the will to implement it, the limbs of state have withered so much that there would be no way to do it and thats before you get into hownthings like strategic food reserves were liqudated and turned into funds. Which maynot matter cause well the Boomer mentality of our government goes if we can't have it no one can so the nukes are going to go off
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May 8, 2023 20:59
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BitcoinRockefeller posted:They built subs during WWII, they know about galvanic corrosion. yes they know about it abstractly. a yard on the lakes isn’t going to know about all the details of a mixed metal vessel. that took a lot of work to get right on the larger vessels. the navy went through this all before. https://apnews.com/article/fb3c5f5bb2688593dadac51dae591dd4 it took a lot of work to get right. it’s a giant pain in the rear end to put aluminum house on a steel hull properly. knowing the actual practical of what needs to be done is very different than knowing abstractly. The lakes yards build boats. they haven’t really built ocean going ships for a long time. I’ve been on many of the merchant ones they built that were in WWII. The labor in the ship yards on the lakes are tug, barge, and ship to ITB conversion folks.
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May 8, 2023 21:07
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Basic Poster posted:its also fun that a single Chinese shipyard has more thru-put and capacity than all the US shipyards combined. and they have 13 ship yards total pumping out combat and support ships. Jesus Christ.
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May 8, 2023 21:15
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Hehe they pump them out so fast I bet they're low quality and rust when they touch sea water.
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May 8, 2023 21:27
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KomradeX posted:Like I always come back to rationing. Modern America is too ideologically opposed to do anything like a rationing program to survive a war effort that doesn't end in 48 hours with nukes, and even if it somehow found the will to implement it, the limbs of state have withered so much that there would be no way to do it and thats before you get into hownthings like strategic food reserves were liqudated and turned into funds. Which maynot matter cause well the Boomer mentality of our government goes if we can't have it no one can so the nukes are going to go off
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May 8, 2023 21:28
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KomradeX posted:Like I always come back to rationing. Modern America is too ideologically opposed to do anything like a rationing program to survive a war effort that doesn't end in 48 hours with nukes, and even if it somehow found the will to implement it, the limbs of state have withered so much that there would be no way to do it and thats before you get into hownthings like strategic food reserves were liqudated and turned into funds. Which maynot matter cause well the Boomer mentality of our government goes if we can't have it no one can so the nukes are going to go off Lmao I forgot that the strategic grain reserve was sold off when the price was high and the proceeds were put in t-bills to be sold off and used to buy grain when needed.
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May 8, 2023 21:30
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US still has a strategic oil reserve. Biden just used it up to push down the gas price.....they are waiting for the gas price to go down so they can refill it.
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May 8, 2023 21:33
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They couldn't even do price controls, let alone rationing. Could you imagine how expensive steel and oil is going to get at a time of war? The US will go broke before supplies get low enough to wire about rationing.
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May 8, 2023 21:36
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sullat posted:Lmao I forgot that the strategic grain reserve was sold off when the price was high and the proceeds were put in t-bills to be sold off and used to buy grain when needed. Yup just a mountain of lols. But like look at this we couldn't get this for PVP during the start of a Pandemic that nearly collapsed out health infrastructure, we're not gonna get thisnto churn out missiles and and tanks 
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May 8, 2023 21:36
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sullat posted:Lmao I forgot that the strategic grain reserve was sold off when the price was high and the proceeds were put in t-bills to be sold off and used to buy grain when needed. Think of the shareholder returns stephenthinkpad posted:US still has a strategic oil reserve. Biden just used it up to push down the gas price.....they are waiting for the gas price to go down so they can refill it. It's actually way worse than just Biden juicing gas prices to keep his polls up, Congress has also been directing sales out of the reserve to balance the budget since 2018 and that will continue to at least 2025: quote:Another section of the Bipartisan Budget Act (Section 403), enacted in 2015, mandates SPR crude oil sales for fiscal years 2018 through 2025 on a volumetric basis, rather than on a dollar basis, as specified in Section 404. The revenues from sales authorized under section 403 will be deposited into the general fund of the U.S. Department of the Treasury.[39] And also to balance the budget of a zillion other specific bills because we'd rather have zero deficit impact than a strategic commodity reserve quote:The Fixing America’s Surface Transportation Act, enacted in December 2015, calls for SPR sales totaling 66 million barrels from fiscal years 2023 through 2025.[39]
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May 8, 2023 21:38
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Basic Poster posted:I had some exposure to the hypersonic issue. When China had first announced its working prototype, and Russia shortly thereafter (may have that backwards) a lot of folks in the DoD and congressional community were saying that it was either bullshit or a non issue. behind the scenes, the DoD and DoE were panicking trying to figure it out. I don't know why anyone is shocked by this, the soviets were doing amazing metalury work for their rockets with closed cycle oxygen rich pre-burner engines way back in the 60's. High temperature material science seems right up their alley.
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May 8, 2023 22:45
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Tom Guycot posted:I don't know why anyone is shocked by this, the soviets were doing amazing metalury work for their rockets with closed cycle oxygen rich pre-burner engines way back in the 60's. High temperature material science seems right up their alley. The belief that the Chinese/Soviets/Russians were and are technologically backwards is pretty foundational to a lot of narratives, socially, politically, economically and militarily.
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May 8, 2023 22:51
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Tom Guycot posted:I don't know why anyone is shocked by this, the soviets were doing amazing metalury work for their rockets with closed cycle oxygen rich pre-burner engines way back in the 60's. High temperature material science seems right up their alley. But what if that's not true and it was always fresh coats of paint over rusted out tanks- Every Liberal
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May 8, 2023 23:01
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Frosted Flake posted:The belief that the Chinese/Soviets/Russians were and are technologically backwards is pretty foundational to a lot of narratives, socially, politically, economically and militarily. yep. those congressional research reports and most of the technical papers they site go out of their way to paint russian/chinese developments that are currently ahead of the us as not being equivalent for varied reasons. some of it is variations on that story of how nasa developed space pens and the soviets used pencils, some of it is pretty plausible sounding, then sometimes it's stuff like: quote:Unlike programs in China and Russia, U.S. hypersonic weapons are to be conventionally armed. As a result, U.S. hypersonic weapons will likely require greater accuracy and will be more technically challenging to develop than nuclear-armed Chinese and Russian systems. Indeed, according to one expert, “a nuclear-armed glider would be effective if it were 10 or even 100 times less accurate [than a conventionally-armed glider]” due to nuclear blast effects. and then later on when discussing Russia and China's current hypersonic weapon development programs say things like: quote:The Kinzhal is reportedly capable of maneuverable flight,as well as of striking both ground and naval targets, and could eventually be fitted with a nuclear warhead. and other quotes where it's clear that conventional warheads are being used. I'm not sure if this is purposeful framing or if people just think like that reflexively when writing this stuff.
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May 8, 2023 23:02
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It's CYA poo poo for people who don't want to lose their career
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May 8, 2023 23:22
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Correct me if I am wrong, but the version of the story I remember why US hypersonic missile fail behind goes like this: 1 there are too many competing programs sponsored by the Army, Navy, AF whatever, half of them are probably handouts to their perspective MIC buddies. 2 US and Russia were in few missile treaties which the US quit one by one in recent year. However, the hypersonic programs from the start were designed to go around the treaties, I believe launching from airplane was one of the checklist item that can go around the treaties. So in other words, the US military drew a pie in the sky that was way too ambitious from the start. Whereas the Chinese, were and still are run by engineers, they let the science R&D programs naturally develop at their own directions and take advantage of the new RgD results. BTW, during Trump era they tried a few times to get China into the missile treaties and got nowhere.
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May 9, 2023 00:10
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Raskolnikov38 posted:also it was supposed to have a rail gun but they scrapped it after the ammo cost like $10 million a shot The gun developed for the Zumwalts was the 155mm Advanced Gun System, which for the record not a railgun, but supposed to be the end-all to all shore bombardment missions, having a blooming 150km range, autocannon rate of fire (10 rounds per minute), and accuracy to rival guided missile systems. This was because the key reasons for the development of the Zumwalts was due to various post 9/11 conflicts giving the USN the desire to provide shore bombardment that wouldn't be close enough to shore for someone to try to whack with short range missiles, while having the precision of actual land attack missiles. Well, AGS worked; but here's the kicker - it relied on the LRLAP, a guided shell specially designed for it, because for various other reasons it couldn't use Excalibur or other 155mm ammo (systems/targeting integration, dimensions, grift, I have yet to check, gimme a while). And LRLAP was shockingly expensive - 800k to 1mil per loving shell! BAE systems claimed that with mass production of the Zumwalts and the AGS, they would be able to set up specialized lines for the LDAP that would massively reduce cost (and to this day is the same excuse used by certain nerds who insist the US MIC isn't an overbloated, inefficient capitalist system) but USN procurement wasn't having none of that. And here is the other silly thing. You see, the thing about the Zumwalts was that they were built and designed for when everyone was buying into the End of History, when the only form of resistance was not the Soviet naval forces wielding gently caress-your-poo poo heavyweight AShMs around their naval bastions, but simply supporting any amphibious forces you are landing to suppress the 'terrorists' that got uppity. And then, would you know it, the PLAN started building itself up, and the USN quickly realized that building an entire destroyer class with a mission focused on shore bombardment was a silly rear end idea, because uh, good luck trying to land Marines on Shanghai, lmao Anyways the still un-functional AGS is still present on the three Zumwalts, because they haven't yet figured out what to replace them with. They say they will put hypersonics on them, but yeah uh, good luck (looks at the recent double failure) (Also naval railgun development for the USN and PLAN have stalled, but its not necessarily technological problems, simply just that both have realized that railguns don't really offer any big leaps in capabilities in modern naval warfare) Iriscoral has issued a correction as of 04:12 on May 9, 2023 |
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May 9, 2023 01:57
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Ardennes posted:Yeah, going back to the point about the carriers as well, the question is just how many aircraft are actually going to be combat available for an large engagement, and it may only be a relatively more modest portion of the flight wing than expected, especially regarding the F-35Cs, but also the aging nature of the F-18s as well. So you may, on paper, be able to get 3 carriers to the region if you really push things, but it may mean there isn't nearly as many fighters as expected. Also, they may not only be tangling with PLAN aircraft but PLAAF aircraft as well. Also, yeah I was being a bit dismissive of the T-14/Su-57 - compared to most other troubled programs the Russians had good reasons for why development took so long and the finished products, contrary to most western propaganda are still operational and decent machines, which is honestly pretty good in the scope of today Iriscoral has issued a correction as of 02:14 on May 9, 2023 |
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May 9, 2023 02:05
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Iriscoral posted:Not quite right, but its still stupid in reality anyways Credit where credit is due, the US has been using 6 inch rifled guns since what, 1870? And they figured out a way to sell the Navy a new one that couldn’t use any other 6” ammo in existence. Six inch naval shells cost about $300 and these were going for a thousand times that, minimum? Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 02:52 on May 9, 2023 |
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May 9, 2023 02:12
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Frosted Flake posted:Credit where credit is due, the US has been using 6 inch rifled guns since what, 1870? And they figured out a way to sell the Navy a new one that couldn’t use other 6” ammo in existence. 
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May 9, 2023 02:42
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improvise adapt overcome
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May 9, 2023 03:31
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KomradeX posted:Like I always come back to rationing. Modern America is too ideologically opposed to do anything like a rationing program to survive a war effort that doesn't end in 48 hours with nukes, and even if it somehow found the will to implement it, the limbs of state have withered so much that there would be no way to do it and thats before you get into hownthings like strategic food reserves were liqudated and turned into funds. Which maynot matter cause well the Boomer mentality of our government goes if we can't have it no one can so the nukes are going to go off continuing my reading of Earl Hess's "Civil War Logistics", there's a clear pattern of consistent moves towards more centralization. Not nationalization per se, though that did happen, but the government taking direct and overall control of various departments to make sure everything runs smoothly. They put ONE GUY in charge of the entire rail network, and so on for coastal shipping, and for riverine shipping. When they had to contract out to the private sector, everything rolled up to Washington DC in a long trail of paperwork and then you look at *waves out the window* and why is this not happening? even if the US has the excuse of not going as far as Stanton or Stimson did because the conflict in Ukraine isn't existential, it's not even happening with the Ukrainians themselves. All their internal politics has been taking the centralized state and dismantling as fast as the IMF tells them to
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May 9, 2023 03:42
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Frosted Flake posted:Credit where credit is due, the US has been using 6 inch rifled guns since what, 1870? And they figured out a way to sell the Navy a new one that couldn’t use any other 6” ammo in existence. Six inch naval shells cost about $300 and these were going for a thousand times that, minimum? To be somewhat fair to BAE Systems (fake edit: turns out the main designer of the shell was everyone's fav, Lockheed Martin, not BAE), a guided shell with 150km range that was supposed to be coupled to an autoloader system allowing for 10 RPM was certainly a tall order, and I wouldn't be surprised that to get sensors, tracking, fins and ammo feed integration going for such ludicrous requirements demanded a fair bit of research investment and what not. However, instead of being a simply technological hurdle I think it speaks to the impracticality of the project as a whole, particularly when it was to fill a specific niche of relatively dubious need that only came out because someone wanted a fancier way to fight neo-colonial wars, so all parties are clowns in that endeavor. That said, the failures of LRLAP and Excalibur are funnier in light of the fact that the PLA successfully made the WS-35, another 155mm guided RAP shell in similar line to the LRLAP with BeiDou guidance and a range of 100km, deployed on the PLZ-05. Iriscoral has issued a correction as of 04:07 on May 9, 2023 |
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May 9, 2023 03:48
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It’s the underlying pathology: the medium naval gun did not need reinvention. They would have been better off using existing guns by every metric, rather than the paperweights they are lugging around now.
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May 9, 2023 03:56
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Iriscoral posted:(Also naval railgun development for the USN and PLAN have stalled, but its not necessarily technological problems, simply just that both have realized that railguns don't really offer any big leaps in capabilities in modern naval warfare) I always imagined a rail gun would be really useful for shooting down missiles.
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May 9, 2023 03:56
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railguns still need to be reloaded
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May 9, 2023 03:58
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I always imagined a rail gun would be really useful for shooting down missiles. The railgun from quake definitely
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May 9, 2023 03:59
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