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Kazinsal posted:To me it's the fact that Nintendo has just been microwaving old hardware for the past two decades and going "yeah what about it" when challenged on it that miffs me because it forces them to make their games run in environments that are just utter crap in the name of cost and power efficiency. Try adding how much each console sold to that criticism and see how it looks then.
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May 15, 2023 08:44
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When I'm playing Zelda on the Switch, the performance is fine. The lack of AA and some long load times are annoying but I think the game is pretty impressive on the hardware. This is not Pokemon Scarlet/Violet. Obviously it would be great if there was a more powerful Switch available that could play a prettier, 60fps Tears of the Kingdom, but I also think it's great that anyone who bought a Switch in the past half decade can play the game and have a good experience. There needs to be room for developers to target old hardware for great experiences. Both because gaming is expensive for consumers (I have an itch to upgrade my 1080ti but I dunno when that will make sense for me) but also because it's expensive for developers.
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May 15, 2023 08:50
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ConanTheLibrarian posted:Try adding how much each console sold to that criticism and see how it looks then. The Switch has just recently sold more hardware than the Game Boy. Not the Color, not the Pocket, not the Advance, not the SP. The original 1989 Game Boy. That's pretty impressive for a six and change year timespan. Sure, the Switch has sold 120+ million units. That doesn't negate the fact that Nintendo R&D's own internal software development teams are being strangled by the hardware/marketing divisions opting to put out three-generations-old leftovers for ten years straight and calling it good. They haven't even shrunk the nodes for power efficiency. It's literally the same poo poo coming off the line that came off the line six years ago, which is really the poo poo that came off the line ten years ago.
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May 15, 2023 08:54
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The ROG Ally is twice the price of the Switch OLED, and is 3.5 times the price of the Switch Lite.
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May 15, 2023 08:54
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I will say one thing, Nintendo hits you coming and going, they're the only console maker whose console is not a loss leader. They make money off of every console sold, from the instant you buy it. Sony and Microsoft have to dig out of a hole on price, as their consoles probably cost somewhere between 33 and 50% more than it sells for to make, and they have to make it up in game and peripheral sales to customers before they profit.
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May 15, 2023 09:09
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Kazinsal posted:They haven't even shrunk the nodes for power efficiency. It's literally the same poo poo coming off the line that came off the line six years ago, which is really the poo poo that came off the line ten years ago. It shrunk once, during 2019 with Tegra X1+ taking it from 20nm to 16nm.
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May 15, 2023 09:36
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Kazinsal posted:They haven't even shrunk the nodes for power efficiency. It's literally the same poo poo coming off the line that came off the line six years ago, which is really the poo poo that came off the line ten years ago. they did do one die shrink, the off-the-shelf Tegra X1 it debuted with in 2016 was made on TSMC 20nm, and in 2019 they started using a custom TSMC 16nm shrink, but they poured the efficiency gains into better battery life rather than better performance e;fb even with the limited hardware they could do more on the software side to clean up their first party games, nobody is forcing them to ship without AA in TYOOL 2023. they even work with monolithsoft on the BOTW/TOTK engine, and monolith use temporal upsampling on their own switch games, while TOTK continues to present raw pixels and then makes the aliasing even worse by needlessly applying FSR1 sharpening on top. repiv fucked around with this message at 09:58 on May 15, 2023 |
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May 15, 2023 09:43
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Good to know that they did a die shrink. Gratz on reaching 2014, Nintendo. I'm assuming that the next Nintendo console at this rate will be a Tegra Orin NX 8GB in a year or two. Four times as many cores with higher IPC at the same clock rate while docked. Maybe if we're lucky we'll get a Tears of the Kingdom Remastered for that.
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May 15, 2023 09:52
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Yeah it is inexplicable that TOTK shipped without any form of AA. Monolithsoft has an excellent TAA implementation, and they assisted on development! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPKDX5B8X0s
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May 15, 2023 09:53
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Kazinsal posted:I'm assuming that the next Nintendo console at this rate will be a Tegra Orin NX 8GB in a year or two. doubt it will be as far as two years out though, end of next year seems about the absolute latest possible date?
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May 15, 2023 11:41
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You would think so, wouldn't you, but Nintendo. Japan is probably the only hyper-developed country in the entire world where capitalism simply isn't the first priority. And that owns, but that kind of classic rigidity has its issues too. Their decision making follows a rigid internal consistency that hasn't changed in years/decades. It's how you get amazing headlines like this: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/japanese-company-apologises-for-9-cent-price-increase-a6972566.html It's also why Tokyo is bar none (imo) the best place in the world for good eating. But the flip side of that rigidity is, of course, situations like this. They have their primary values and they stick to 'em. It's laudable until you're playing the best AAA title of the year at 19 fps without anti aliasing  This resistance to change is kind of destroying Japan though unfortunately so a pivot of some kind seems sadly inevitable. Gonna pour it out for a real one when that happens, and I'm trying to get back to Japan before then. Taima fucked around with this message at 13:31 on May 15, 2023 |
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May 15, 2023 13:15
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lih posted:there have been a lot of leaks pointing to that, yeah. iirc that should be roughly similar performance to steam deck & last-gen consoles? maybe a little better in some places? The leaks haven't been pointing to the 8GB NX, have they? I'm pretty sure the T239 chip that appeared in the ransomware leak and some prior leaks that connected it to Nintendo is one of the higher-spec Orin chips--1536 or 1024 cuda cores I think? Rather than the NX's 512. It's an Ampere chip, and we already know that Ampere is comparable to RDNA2 in terms of power efficiency, being slightly worse or better depending on the size and voltage curve of the chip. And so the question is entirely about power consumption. If the SoC uses only 5W or something in handheld mode again (the switch's entire device power consumption is around 7W in handheld mode), then it's not going to compete with the Steam Deck in performance. Nintendo may not want to be too aggressive here because they value long battery life. A 15W SoC would make it competitive or maybe better than the steam deck, but then they'd have two-hour battery life, and that's not something Nintendo will ever accept. Docked mode is another question though. I could see them enhancing the switch 2's cooling solution and allowing it to consume more power in docked mode. Total device power in docked mode for the Switch when measured at the wall is around 11 watts. Pushing that to 20 or even 30 is within the realm of possibility, and is what would allow them to flirt with the idea of doing a 4K output with DLSS's help (e.g. 1080p to 4K, or DLSS performance mode). (edit: I confused the NX with the Nano in my head, sorry. Yeah, the Switch 2 will be some variety of NX) Taima posted:You would think so, wouldn't you, but Nintendo. Capitalism isn't as deeply ingrained in their culture as it is in American culture, but like almost everywhere else on earth, it has absolutely become a pervasive aspect of their society. And the whole "rigidity" aspect is a largely a myth pushed by people who jack off to a mythologized version of Japanese culture. It ain't 1850 there anymore. Also allow me to indignantly point out that "19 fps" is a meme and the game largely runs at 30fps in docked mode. edit: Keep in mind you're talking about probably the most creative company in the entire video game industry, in terms of hardware and software. it's hard to imagine them making systems like the Wii, DS, and Switch, or them making/publishing the games they do if they really were as rigid as you say. edit 2: And while everyone on the internet is talking about a "Switch 2," it's entirely possible that Nintendo throws a total curveball at us like they have many times in the past. It's not going to be a high-performance device, but they do have a habit of releasing interesting hardware regardless. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 19:44 on May 15, 2023 |
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May 15, 2023 14:06
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Also allow me to indignantly point out that "19 fps" is a meme and the game largely runs at 30fps in docked mode. yeah the Digital Foundry review made it clear that it holds a good frame rate/frame-pacing, after the Day One patch, with a few exceptions
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May 15, 2023 14:28
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Taima posted:Their decision making follows a rigid internal consistency that hasn't changed in years/decades. It's how you get amazing headlines like this: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/japanese-company-apologises-for-9-cent-price-increase-a6972566.html because nomimal median household income in japan has dropped from the 90s peak of 5M yen to current 3.6M and 0% inflation was the only consolation prize until recently
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May 15, 2023 14:40
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TotK is a cool game and very pretty and I think it runs pretty impressively on that hardware.
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May 15, 2023 15:21
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Lockback posted:TotK is a cool game and very pretty and I think it runs pretty impressively on that hardware.
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May 15, 2023 17:17
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there's no need to imagine when it's already running at 4k60 in emulators theres still room to improve things with mods (e.g. shadow resolution) but it's already an astronomical improvement over the current switch hardware
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May 15, 2023 17:28
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Finally got a 4070ti that works (no thanks to gigabyte). Been playing around with undervolting it, and it's been fun. Also ran into a rather interesting phenomena, that there is a lower limit to temps for a stable UV. (at least that is what it appears) Have it running at 975mv @2805 and been stable for everything I could throw at it, until I was messing with the fan curve at lower temps, if the temp drops below 29c it BSODs, every time. Thought that was kind of interesting.
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May 15, 2023 17:32
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I bought a switch last year, because they went on sale just before Christmas for 350AUD with Mario kart 8 bundled. Not the OLED, the older one. I mostly play Diablo III on it, which is older than the console by about 5 years, and runs about as well as it does on my 2013 HP Elitebook with a 2gb ATI HD 7500 and a dual core ivy bridge i7. It's totally playable, but that game ran on a potato when it came out, and it's pretty clear they had to make some major concessions to get it to run at close to 30fps at 720p. Given there are games coming out now that are pushing it to get 60fps on my Series X, and potentially unplayable on my 980ti, it's both impressive and horrifying that they're people are still paying $80-100 for games on this thing. The price of the console seems pretty reasonable, but I was pretty shocked at how much they're asking for anything other than trash-tier mobile games on the store. WiiU titles like BOTW, Smash bros and Mario 3D World shouldn't cost $90AUD at this stage, and I'm almost positive that Nintendo are going to find some creative way to avoid backwards compatibility on whatever replaces it, while doing as little to improve those titles as they did with the shift from WiiU to switch. If folks just want to play that poo poo upscaled to 1080/1440 with some AA, an upscaler like the MClassic is probably going to be a better deal.
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May 15, 2023 18:01
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For 30 and 40 series of Nvidia cards, I've noticed that in the Nvidia overlay for example as well as afterburner you can set a power limit of under 100% Does that effectively do the same thing as undervolting? Or do you have to work with the power curves as well to achieve the "less power but still basically same speed" effect?
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May 15, 2023 18:24
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Weird Pumpkin posted:For 30 and 40 series of Nvidia cards, I've noticed that in the Nvidia overlay for example as well as afterburner you can set a power limit of under 100% 30 series it was best to undervolt with a curve 40 series just set a 80% power target for 95% of the performance with less power and heat. I have my 4090 FE down to 67% power and the performance loss is negligible. But instead of 450w it uses 300w
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May 15, 2023 18:26
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Weird Pumpkin posted:For 30 and 40 series of Nvidia cards, I've noticed that in the Nvidia overlay for example as well as afterburner you can set a power limit of under 100% Not the same as undervolting. It is just lowering the max power the gpu can draw. Undervolting changes how much power the gpu will request to reach certain speeds (the power curve you mentioned earlier). Limiting the max power just chops off the end of that power curve.
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May 15, 2023 18:28
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SwissArmyDruid posted:edit: I will stan for Koss Porta-Pros. I will also stan for the Anker Soundcore Q20 bluetooth headset. It doesn't sound as good as KPPs for music, but if you travel for work and want to have one thing to let you do meetings, and listen to (music | movies | games) it's pretty great. I've pretty much just tossed mine in my carryon for over about 18 months and it's still going strong. Plus it has noise-cancelling which is a long way from perfect but makes working from crowded coffee shops so much more bearable -- for $60. mdxi fucked around with this message at 18:48 on May 15, 2023 |
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May 15, 2023 18:41
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Animal posted:30 series it was best to undervolt with a curve It's going to take so long for the 4090 to flex its muscles, especially with how well optimized new games are these days.
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May 15, 2023 18:55
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Nfcknblvbl posted:especially with how well optimized new games are these days. lol
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May 15, 2023 18:58
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That's the joke.
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May 15, 2023 19:15
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orange juche posted:I will say one thing, Nintendo hits you coming and going, they're the only console maker whose console is not a loss leader. They make money off of every console sold, from the instant you buy it. Sony and Microsoft have to dig out of a hole on price, as their consoles probably cost somewhere between 33 and 50% more than it sells for to make, and they have to make it up in game and peripheral sales to customers before they profit. Yea that isn't right at all. Sony are not losing a ton of money on each one sold. The ps4 started turning a profit within 6 months, and for the ps5 in less than a year(with the blu-ray version being profitable immediately). Sony learned from the ps3/360 era to not sell for a massive loss anymore. Maybe you are thinking of the xbox, which definitely sells for a loss according to Microsoft. Or the steamdeck which is also being heavily subsidized by Valve.
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May 15, 2023 19:32
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edit: nevermind, i can't read
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May 15, 2023 19:41
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Yea that isn't right at all. Sony are not losing a ton of money on each one sold. The ps4 started turning a profit within 6 months, and for the ps5 in less than a year(with the blu-ray version being profitable immediately). Sony learned from the ps3/360 era to not sell for a massive loss anymore. fwiw, I don't think the xbox sells for a loss anymore. It definitely did longer than the PS5 did though.
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May 15, 2023 20:37
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:A 15W SoC would make it competitive or maybe better than the steam deck, but then they'd have two-hour battery life, and that's not something Nintendo will ever accept. Wait, is my battery supposed to be lasting longer than 2 hours while playing TotK? It does not seem to be, and it’s a pretty lightly-used device.
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May 15, 2023 20:45
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Subjunctive posted:Wait, is my battery supposed to be lasting longer than 2 hours while playing TotK? It does not seem to be, and it’s a pretty lightly-used device. Nintendo claims that the Switch battery should last for approximately 5.5 hours when playing BotW,, though I don't know if TotK uses more power for some reason. Even if your switch is lightly used, lithium-ion batteries degrade over time while holding a full charge. So if it's sat docked for years, then that might explain it? edit: Incidentally, Nintendo claims on that page 4 watts for handheld mode and 6 watts for docked mode, which is less than what other sources have measured (such as Ars Technica and Digital Foundry). Not sure what the deal is with that discrepency. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 20:53 on May 15, 2023 |
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May 15, 2023 20:50
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Nintendo claims that the Switch battery should last for approximately 5.5 hours when playing BotW,, though I don't know if TotK uses more power for some reason. Even if your switch is lightly used, lithium-ion batteries degrade over time while holding a full charge. So if it's sat docked for years, then that might explain it? No, it sat unplugged basically the whole time, hmm. Wonder if there’s a way to check on its battery health. I’ll keep closer track of time next time I play, maybe I’m wrong about the passage of time.
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May 15, 2023 21:05
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I’ve def never gotten 5.5hrs off dock, but I have the launch revision pre-die shrink
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May 15, 2023 21:14
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Subjunctive posted:Wait, is my battery supposed to be lasting longer than 2 hours while playing TotK? It does not seem to be, and it’s a pretty lightly-used device. which switch version is it, the die shrunk versions last a lot longer all minis and OLEDs are die shrunk, if you have the OG model then they're distinguished by the colour of the box  Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:edit: Incidentally, Nintendo claims on that page 4 watts for handheld mode and 6 watts for docked mode, which is less than what other sources have measured (such as Ars Technica and Digital Foundry). Not sure what the deal is with that discrepency. are the arstechnica and DF numbers from before the die shrink? repiv fucked around with this message at 21:52 on May 15, 2023 |
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May 15, 2023 21:50
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repiv posted:which switch version is it, the die shrunk versions last a lot longer You definitely want the OG of the OGiest models though, all the others are worthless as they can't be exploited
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May 15, 2023 21:59
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Nintendo gives the original switch before any battery degradation a battery life of 2.5 to 6.5 hours. So I can definitely see it running out in 2 hours or something while undocked if it's an old model. Also you can totally hack the newer models if you can find someone to solder a mod chip to it. So like not great compared to the OG model with the permanent hardware hole cause Nvidia messed up, but still.
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May 15, 2023 22:01
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repiv posted:which switch version is it, the die shrunk versions last a lot longer Yeah. That die shrink must have saved a lot more power than I would've expected.
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May 15, 2023 22:10
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DF did a follow up power consumption comparison https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E2PZ5-IVDw&t=330s i recall there being something about the later models using lower power memory as well but i can't find the source now
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May 15, 2023 22:16
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Subjunctive posted:No, it sat unplugged basically the whole time, hmm. Wonder if there’s a way to check on its battery health. I’ll keep closer track of time next time I play, maybe I’m wrong about the passage of time. Sitting unplugged isn't good for the battery either if it'd dead/very low.
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May 15, 2023 22:42
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basically lithium ion batteries are extremely delicate and basically anything you do with them will result in gradual degradation. The best way to preserve the battery is to keep the charge somewhere in the middle, but that's not practical to actually do.
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May 15, 2023 22:46
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