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It doesn't really make sense that there isn't a diplomatic staffer aboard a ship the size of the galaxy but it's part of the premise so go with it.
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May 17, 2023 20:05
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MikeJF posted:It doesn't really make sense that there isn't a diplomatic staffer aboard a ship the size of the galaxy but it's part of the premise so go with it. It doesn't really make sense that there isn't a diplomatic staffer aboard the NX-1 on its first mission outside local cluster but yeah, part of the premise.
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May 17, 2023 20:07
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MikeJF posted:It doesn't really make sense that there isn't a diplomatic staffer aboard a ship the size of the galaxy but it's part of the premise so go with it.  Times 2
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May 17, 2023 20:12
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Der Kyhe posted:It doesn't really make sense that there isn't a diplomatic staffer aboard the NX-1 on its first mission outside local cluster but yeah, part of the premise. "Diplomatic staff? We've never needed a diplomatic staff before, ambassador.  " - 22nd century Starfleetso by the 23rd century they have an entire diplomatic corps and they're all assholes
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May 17, 2023 20:15
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zoux posted:
they forgot to list his hubris level
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May 17, 2023 20:16
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Khanstant posted:they forgot to list his hubris level Sheer; loving.
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May 17, 2023 20:16
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Der Kyhe posted:It doesn't really make sense that there isn't a diplomatic staffer aboard the NX-1 on its first mission outside local cluster but yeah, part of the premise. Honestly, this is the part of Enterprise where the premise fell apart for me. The showrunners were trying to ride this bizarre line between the crew being gutsy cowboy astronauts but also the top experts in their respective fields who are totally ready to go roll with the big outer space cats. The Vulcans were right. zoux posted:
I like how music is just stated with no definitions or clarifications. What kind of music? Good Music? Christian Rock? Niche German Techno of the 1980's? Penitent fucked around with this message at 20:22 on May 17, 2023 |
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May 17, 2023 20:20
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Yeah, massive assholes who even went to questionable lengths on trying to keep us locked into our own sector, but right about the NX-1 crew.
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May 17, 2023 20:22
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Sisko hated diplomats so its no surprise they stayed away from him. Probably they were all like "A Starfleet captain, eh? Hey, do you know Picard?"
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May 17, 2023 20:25
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Sisko hated diplomats so its no surprise they stayed away from him. Probably they were all like "A Starfleet captain, eh? Hey, do you know Picard?" *stunned Tellarite wiping at the blood pouring from his nose* Picard never hit me! Penitent posted:Honestly, this is the part of Enterprise where the premise fell apart for me. The showrunners were trying to ride this bizarre line between the crew being gutsy cowboy astronauts but also the top experts in their respective fields who are totally ready to go roll with the big outer space cats. Kataanese flute music
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May 17, 2023 20:25
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If you're going to have a diplomat on board they have to have authority. So if you have a full time diplomat that means there's someone running around on the ship with the ability to order the captain around, which is going to be weird if you don't see them frequently. So you either have this character who can order the captain around just hanging around in the background, rarely on screen, but you know is there. Or you have someone who can boss the captain around, but has gently caress all to do when some nebula eats the ship.
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May 17, 2023 20:31
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zoux posted:*stunned Tellarite wiping at the blood pouring from his nose* Picard never hit me! and fifth-wave ska
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May 17, 2023 20:32
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CainFortea posted:If you're going to have a diplomat on board they have to have authority. So if you have a full time diplomat that means there's someone running around on the ship with the ability to order the captain around, which is going to be weird if you don't see them frequently. If only there was a role for a mostly non-command track advisor who regularly sits with the captain on the bridge but does their thing only when specifically expected to do so.
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May 17, 2023 20:34
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Then again they have a 20th-century earth historian on board the Enterprise, so I think the precedent is that it's totally fine to have experts in their field who spend most of their time not being very relevant to the mission at hand. Also there's all sorts of civilian ambassadors, or appointed negotiators, or whatever that get brought in. Like, it's totally weird to have Lwaxana as a "Betazoid ambassador" in the Federation because that's like saying the US is sending their "Wyoming ambassador" to hash out trade negotiations with the Belgians or whatever.
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May 17, 2023 20:34
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The Chairman posted:and fifth-wave ska I need to know how this sounds, like I hope by then they'd have got the skate punk out of it, but
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May 17, 2023 20:40
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Der Kyhe posted:If only there was a role for a mostly non-command track advisor who regularly sits with the captain on the bridge but does their thing only when specifically expected to do so. You can't really have a "diplomat only every other sunday" kind of thing though. Diplomats are expected to be able to make binding agreements. It would be weird if you had someone who could bring in an interstellar state with 50 billion people spaning 20 planets, but needs permission from the ship driver to go on leave for a week. Having some kind of diplomatic specialist who can advise the captain on negotiations makes sense, but it's the captain who makes the call. Which if you think about it is a role that Troi fills, she's constantly telling picard about the person he's talking to.
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May 17, 2023 20:47
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zoux posted:
There probably was a good CCG buried in the Star Trek CCG.
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May 17, 2023 20:49
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Mooseontheloose posted:There probably was a good CCG buried in the Star Trek CCG. Yeah I wasn't allowed to play Magic because of Satan but I was allowed to play that and it was basically just me against my bro. I also collected baseball cards so that probably factored in as well. The game play, traveling to different planets and uncovering dilemmas or whatever wasn't great. But I strongly associate TNG stuff with the game so when the Armin Shimmerman Box shows up I'm like, "Oh gently caress that thing, I hate that loving box" 
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May 17, 2023 20:54
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CainFortea posted:Which if you think about it is a role that Troi fills, she's constantly telling picard about the person he's talking to. Yes, and while "a federation envoy" would will the same slot as Troi, they only get to work when the ship's security is not compromised. If there is a civilian from the foreign ministry representing the US government onboard an aircraft carrier, I bet that person has no say on anything besides when setting up the meetings and such after the perimeter is secured for such meetings to take place. And there would be full security detail, and the captain calls the shots if things go sideways and shots get fired. EDIT: Of course it would be boring TV to just show the crew bussing around the diplomatic core when nothing interesting happens. Captain makes the contact, diplomatic core starts the talks, the ship just sits idle on the orbit while negotiations happen and everyone goes home when the subspace call number is selected. EDITEDIT: Obviously it would be Lower Decks-level humor if the lazy writers do 6+ stories on "the diplomatic core got taken hostige again" " OH FOR FU*** SAKE" Der Kyhe fucked around with this message at 21:03 on May 17, 2023 |
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May 17, 2023 20:58
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I played that in high school, and the only thing I remember is we used to use "Amanda Rogers" as a euphamism for telling eachother "no we're not going to do whatever dumb thing you want to do" Because she was the interrupt card.
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May 17, 2023 21:01
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Der Kyhe posted:Yes, and while "a federation envoy" would will the same slot as Troi, they only get to work when the ship's security is not compromised. Yea, and we do get those temporary diplomats, and in fact many times there is tension between the captain and the diplomat!
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May 17, 2023 21:03
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Der Kyhe posted:EDIT: Of course it would be boring TV to just show the crew bussing around the diplomatic core when nothing interesting happens. Captain makes the contact, diplomatic core starts the talks, the ship just sits idle on the orbit while negotiations happen and everyone goes home when the subspace call number is selected. This setup with added jeopardy or dilemma is like 1/10th of all TNG episodes though.
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May 17, 2023 21:03
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All I remember now about the box is it laughing hysterically and vomiting costume jewelry all over the transporter pad. 10/10 batshit Season 1 concept
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May 17, 2023 21:05
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Mooseontheloose posted:There probably was a good CCG buried in the Star Trek CCG. It was never a good game, but it gets points for having cards for pretty much everything that ever happened in Star Trek. You want to just solve missions to win the game, sure you could do that. Or, you could capture your opponent's personnel and replace them with Changelings! Or you could go back in time and stop First Contact and force your opponent to discard all their humans because they don't exist in the altered timeline! Or play a card that shifts everyone to the Yesterday's Enterprise timeline so now your Federation ships could initiate combat because the Federation's now at war! Or just mess up your opponent's plans by beaming tribbles over to their ships, and maybe use a tribble bomb to kill Kirk in the past! It was almost never worthwhile to do all this nonsense, but it was nice to have the option.
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May 18, 2023 06:03
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CainFortea posted:If you're going to have a diplomat on board they have to have authority. So if you have a full time diplomat that means there's someone running around on the ship with the ability to order the captain around, which is going to be weird if you don't see them frequently. In the first episode there's a guy called Commissioner Simmonds, who is basically Koenig's boss and whose job is to keep the nuclear waste dumps running at all costs and be an obstructive rear end in a top hat. He's trapped on the Moon with everyone else when the waste dumps blow and the Moon is blasted into space. He then completely vanishes for several episodes, despite being, y'know, Koenig's boss and you'd think wanting a say in how Moonbase Alpha is run now that everyone on it is at risk of dying horribly at any moment. Finally he reappears for one episode where some friendly aliens, who just happen to be heading for Earth, have one spot left on their spaceship. Simmonds decides that he should get the spot rather than it be left to a computer making the decision on purely utilitarian grounds, so he takes hostages until he eventually gets his way. He then wakes up from suspended animation about an hour after the ship leaves Alpha because he's not quite compatible with the system, and is left trapped screaming inside a glass box begging for help over his radio as the ship powers away faster than any of Alpha's Eagles can catch up. It's then revealed that the computer would have picked Simmonds anyway because he's a useless piece of poo poo who's a bigger drain on Alpha's resources than anyone else. (1999's first season liked its bleak endings.)
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May 18, 2023 07:15
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FISHMANPET posted:Also there's all sorts of civilian ambassadors, or appointed negotiators, or whatever that get brought in. Like, it's totally weird to have Lwaxana as a "Betazoid ambassador" in the Federation because that's like saying the US is sending their "Wyoming ambassador" to hash out trade negotiations with the Belgians or whatever. No, think of the EU. You're the ambassador from Belgium representing your nation at the EU even though you're in it. And you can go off and represent Belgium in France even though you're both in the EU. Less centralised than the US is in the modern day (but more centralised than the EU at least, just a real world example that doesn't quite fit but is close enough)
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May 18, 2023 08:08
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Betazed was just always sending its ambassador off world for some reason.
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May 18, 2023 08:18
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Penitent posted:I like how music is just stated with no definitions or clarifications.
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May 18, 2023 08:52
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Nvm
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May 18, 2023 08:54
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Homeward is on BBC America right now and it's almost a good episode mired in Federation bullshit.
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May 18, 2023 14:44
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Der Kyhe posted:Yes, and while "a federation envoy" would will the same slot as Troi, they only get to work when the ship's security is not compromised. It's a kinda different scenario in the real world though, since the aircraft carrier can only run into known countries and, essentially, pirates. All the proper diplomatic channels have been set up already and run independently of the military. Starfleet on the other hand routinely runs into new guys with no established channels, so they have to start from scratch with the diplomacy. I dunno where I'm going with that, other than Starfleet needing someone who can speak on behalf of them on their ships more than an American aircraft carrier.
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May 18, 2023 15:16
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CainFortea posted:You can't really have a "diplomat only every other sunday" kind of thing though. Diplomats are expected to be able to make binding agreements. It would be weird if you had someone who could bring in an interstellar state with 50 billion people spaning 20 planets, but needs permission from the ship driver to go on leave for a week. TOS walked this line in a bunch of episodes, with either civilian diplomats or higher ranking mission commanders taking the lead. TNG would have been fine with a primary cast civilian diplomat that only had authority in certain situations and was advisory otherwise. Star Trek constantly pulls the thing where the chief medical officer can yell at the captain, so I don't think there'd be a problem with having four or five episodes where the chief diplomatic officer or whatever has to put their foot down. The mission requirements/Federation ideals/ship safety conflict is already a hallmark of Star Trek plots anyway.
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May 18, 2023 15:45
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Your avatar is the most yelling-at-the-captain CMO ever!
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May 18, 2023 15:52
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Also there's precedence for command of the ship and command of the mission being separate, in that episode with that old admiral that took the anti-aging serum and aged backward, Picard maintained complete control of the ship, but the admiral had complete command of the mission. So presumably if a fleet of Romulans came in during a negotiation, the ship captain could be like "Look, I'm leaving, if you want to come back to the ship that's your decision as mission commander, but you've got 15 seconds before I raise shields and warp the gently caress out of here."
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May 18, 2023 16:16
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Paradoxish posted:TOS walked this line in a bunch of episodes, with either civilian diplomats or higher ranking mission commanders taking the lead. TNG would have been fine with a primary cast civilian diplomat that only had authority in certain situations and was advisory otherwise. Star Trek constantly pulls the thing where the chief medical officer can yell at the captain, so I don't think there'd be a problem with having four or five episodes where the chief diplomatic officer or whatever has to put their foot down. I think that the idea of having someone who outranks you every other sunday is a lot weirder of a solution than the standard "Ship captain has the authority to negotiation" thing that they went with, and also has historical precedence.
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May 18, 2023 16:30
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Even if you don't want them to outrank the captain, you still could've had a diplomatic specialist character. Troi might've been better conceptualised as a sociologist and diplomat who's there on the bridge to comprehend aliens and also formally assist the captain as a diplomatic attache, with a deeper training in acting on the Federation's behalf. (Consuler Troi?)
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May 18, 2023 16:37
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Somebody should have always been insisting it's pronounced "Betazee"
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May 18, 2023 16:38
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I hate every empath I see, from Beta-ay to Beta-zee. You'll never make a monkey out of me.
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May 18, 2023 16:41
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Also sometimes that Vulcan ambassador turns out not to be a Vulcan.
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May 18, 2023 16:44
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BonHair posted:It's a kinda different scenario in the real world though, since the aircraft carrier can only run into known countries and, essentially, pirates. All the proper diplomatic channels have been set up already and run independently of the military. Starfleet on the other hand routinely runs into new guys with no established channels, so they have to start from scratch with the diplomacy. In the modern day, yes. In the 1500s-1800s, no. It was fairly common for ship captains to end up carrying the weight of their nation's authority far, far away from the motherland. Sure, things could and would go wrong from people overstepping their authority without checking with the mother country (sometimes there may even be an advantageous aspect of people acting with plausible deniability if things go wrong). And that sort of issue with individuals asserting national authority without permission or their own personal ideas not matching with superiors has happened with all sorts of officials, even with diplomats. I think it's plausible that Starfleet, with its greater emphasis on exploration and its ideals, would give more diplomatic training to its officers than the UK would've back in the day, and on top of that would select officers who are better and more trustworthy on their diplomacy for its exploratory missions. Maybe it'd make sense for ships to have extra experts and ready ambassadors for schmoozing with the locals, but that's one of those things that plausibly would be part of the ship's crew that writers have little to no interest in. Like how the Enterprise should have more academics and scientists ready onboard for all the science stuff that is supposed to be part of its primary mission, and presumably they have ongoing work.
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