Ukraine War: Berth El Buk

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(Thread IKs: weg, Toxic Mental)

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

Pot Smoke Phoenix posted:

In Russia?

Because I'm focusing on that centuries-old Russian prison/criminal/mob culture, in Russia- not US-based prison society which is relatively new and not at all like Russia, as I envisioned in my mind, based on the lurid details in that article linked a couple of pages back.

In my mind I imagined people purposely walking around to avoid touching someone, which brought to mind ancient games of cooties in the third grade, which was comically.

So it evolved into a nation-wide game of tag/cooties, because no one knew who was "it", and all of society implodes.

Yes i am talking about Russia

As i've said earlier those are not superstitions that they actually believe, just tricks to secure prison hierarchy.

Russian prison culture is also very young, it was established after WW2, maybe 1920-30s at the earliest if you make the line from "honor" rules of tsarist officers that turned to banditry in Civil War

fatherboxx fucked around with this message at 18:03 on May 18, 2023

# ? May 18, 2023 18:01

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# ? May 30, 2024 16:05

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

It's like the USSR: residents on life in Mariupol a year since Russian occupation posted:

The mood in Mariupol has �changed dramatically�, according to residents who thought Russia would stay forever but are now expecting a swift Ukrainian military offensive to recapture the city.

In a series of anonymous interviews with the Guardian, people said Mariupol had been transformed into a gloomy version of the Soviet Union since the last Ukrainian defenders holed up in the Azovstal steelworks surrendered to Russian troops a year ago.

�I feel as if I�ve fallen into some terrible submerged and downtrodden collective farm. The shops are primitive and the prices astronomical,� one said. �The city isn�t the one I knew. The people are not the same. Everything is changed. I have a permanent feeling of wanting to go home.�

They said Russian flags flew above municipal buildings, soldiers were visible on the streets, and portraits of Vladimir Putin and the leader of the self-proclaimed republic in Donetsk, Denis Pushilin, hung on the walls of offices and schools.

The occupying authorities pulled down more than 300 blocks of flats which were destroyed when Russian forces besieged and pulverised the city. The centre was now an �empty wasteland�, a resident said. �To me it looks awful. There are craters. Everything is mutilated.�

Flats had been given to collaborators. A few five-storey residential buildings had been repaired, with electricity, gas and other services mostly restored.

Some residents were clinging on in ruined nine-storey blocks scheduled for demolition, without heating or light. Others had been forced to move into crowded dormitories, where husbands and wives were separated and placed in same-sex rooms. �The conditions in hostels are bad. People don�t want to leave their properties because they are worried about looting,� one person said.

Mariupol was once a flourishing European metropolis and port on the Sea of Azov, in eastern Ukraine�s Donetsk region. It was home to 480,000 people. In 2014, Moscow and its armed proxies briefly seized the city. The previous frontline was nine miles (15km) from the centre, across a landscape of wrecked seaside villages.

On the eve of Russia�s full-scale invasion last year, public opinion in Mariupol was split 50/50 between those who backed Kyiv, and those who sympathised with Putin, current and former residents said. In spring 2022 around half of the city�s population escaped, to Ukrainian government-controlled areas and European countries.

Residents claimed the death toll in the city was 100,000-120,000 � a figure significantly higher than the official toll of 21,000 given by Volodymyr Zelenskiy�s government. One person said 25% to 30% of their friends and acquaintances had perished.

About 120,000 of Mariupol�s original inhabitants survived and still live in the city. Of those, about 20% supported Ukraine�s armed forces and were waiting for liberation, a resident said. �I think it�s necessary to hang on,� the person explained. The other 80% were divided equally between people who were indifferent to politics, and those who supported Russia and the city�s new administration.

�This last group are now the majority,� a resident said. �They are very afraid of the counteroffensive.� They continued: �The mood in Mariupol has changed dramatically. A year ago everybody thought that Russia would win. There was no other scenario. Now even those who back Putin realise something is going on, and that Russia might actually lose.

�They are afraid there will be a battle. They understood that when the territory becomes Ukrainian again they are finished. They will have to leave their homes and go to Russia forever.�

Residents estimated about 50,000 Russians had relocated to Mariupol, from Moscow, St Petersburg, Samara and other cities. �These incomers don�t have any idea of what happened. They watch propaganda on TV and think we were rescued from neo-Nazis,� one person said.

Meanwhile, the Kremlin was indoctrinating young people in the city. Schools and kindergartens had reopened under a Russian curriculum and the Ukrainian language had been banned. �The brainwashing is very strong,� one person said. �Children are told Russia�s president is the best, and Ukraine is full of bad people and fascists. It�s like the USSR. There are alien slogans. Only maths and physics are unchanged.�

Natalya Dedova, a Mariupol journalist whose husband, Viktor, a TV camera operator, was killed by Russian shelling, said independent Ukrainian channels had been closed down. A new station, M24, broadcast pro-Moscow news, she said. Some of her husband�s former colleagues had gone to work for Russian media. �I was shocked. They are people of great ambition and little talent,� she said.

A year after Russia�s takeover there were few signs of Ukrainian partisan activity, residents acknowledged. �I have not come across it. People are arrested and tortured and taken away,� one current resident said. Leaving the city was only possible via Russia � an expensive and risky journey. Russia�s FSB spy agency screened anyone who tried to exit, checking phones for signs of pro-Ukrainian activity.

�If they discover anything they will keep you. It�s not unusual for the FSB to interrogate people for eight, 10, even 16 hours,� one resident said, adding that they had remained in Mariupol to care for their elderly grandparents, after their father was killed during Russia�s blockade. �To stay or go is a very painful question. I have a family. I can�t leave them.�

A majority had accepted Russian passports. Without one it was impossible to get a pension, access medical services or even buy or sell a car, residents said. The elderly received a pension of 10,000 rubles (�100) a month. �We live frugally. Bread, water, a bit of sausage. That�s it. We can�t afford luxuries,� a resident said.

In March, Putin appeared to visit Mariupol, driving through the city at night. He passed landmarks, including the theatre where a Russian airstrike killed up to 600 people, many of them children. Asked if they had seen Putin, one resident replied: �No. Just read what Russian bloggers posted.� They added: �It was a show, election campaigning, like always.�

It remains to be seen if Ukraine�s long-anticipated counteroffensive can reach Mariupol. The city is just 35 miles from the Russian border, 460 miles from Kyiv, and far from the current frontline. Meanwhile, around 2,000 out of 2,500 Azovstal defenders remain in Russian captivity a year after they were taken prisoner. Five hundred have been swapped for Russian prisoners and released.

If Kyiv does retake Mariupol, the city will require a massive programme of reconstruction and development. Dedova � who fled with her son, after her husband was killed on 11 March 2022 � said its recapture would be �the cherry on the cake�. But she cautioned: �It will be the last place we free. The Russians destroyed everything. So many people died. It will be like Chornobyl, a place of ghosts.�

One current resident said they recently visited Mariupol�s beach, once a popular recreation zone where families and couples would swim and relax in summer, next to the waves and marina. �I went with my sister. Nobody was there. It was completely empty. Everyone is afraid there could be grenades or mines. On one hand it was terrible, on the other, cool to be on our own. I felt like crying.�

Monsters.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/18/its-like-the-ussr-residents-on-life-in-mariupol-a-year-since-russian-occupation

# ? May 18, 2023 18:02

Pot Smoke Phoenix: Aug 15, 2007; Smoke 'em if you gottem!; Dinosaur Gum

fatherboxx posted:

Yes i am talking about Russia

As i've said earlier those are not superstitions that they actually believe, just tricks to secure prison hierarchy.

Russian prison culture is also very young, it was established after WW2, maybe 1920-30s at the earliest if you make the line from "honor" rules of tsarist officers that turned to banditry in Civil War

Ah, got it. Thank you for the clarification.

# ? May 18, 2023 18:11

Randarkman: Jul 18, 2011

Somewhat interesting article published on Norwegian state broadcasting's website today about Russian embassy staff (almost certainly intelligence operatives) shopping around for advanced underwater equipment from Norwegian businesses.

Article is in Norwegian but google translate does a passable job of rendering it into english (though messes up some things here and there).

# ? May 18, 2023 19:10

Edgar Allen Ho: Apr 3, 2017; by sebmojo

HonorableTB posted:

In contemporary times absolutely. That same desire to hobble nations that might join up with Russia's enemies takes different forms throughout the centuries.

Take a brief skim through this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_of_Russia_(1500%E2%80%931800)

And you will quickly find that the pattern of bullying weaker neighbors into being satellite states first then outright annexed is how Russia expanded to the Pacific in the first place (and lol that it was only a problem for the rest of Europe that Russia did this when Russia turned around and aimed it westwards and started sucking up territories allied with Poland-Lithuania and Prussia)

That�s the pattern of every european empire 1500-1945. It�s real goofy to me how people look to the pre-soviet times and ascribe it to some inherent russian sonderweg that cannot change

# ? May 18, 2023 19:18

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

That�s the pattern of every european empire 1500-1945. It�s real goofy to me how people look to the pre-soviet times and ascribe it to some inherent russian sonderweg that cannot change

That's not what I said at all. The way the Russian Empire did its imperialism is quite different than how other Europeans did it because of the nature of Siberian expansion vs oceangoing vessels and overseas colonialism. The internal social and geopolitical problems from that were quite different. The land connection (and here is the importance of railroads in Russian history) from Moscow to the provinces allowed for a much more easily enforced cultural homogeneity whenever a wave of Russification happened. The colonization carried Russification alongside it as a matter of course; spreading Russian control over the empty far east meant forced resettlement of the in-group population out to those areas and making them complicit in the cultural and physical replacement of the indigenous inhabitants. This happened with the Tatars, for example. They were dispersed to mostly Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan

Compare that to say, the Spanish colonies in the Americas. They created their own distinct cultures and eventually developed into their own distinct sovereign nations and peoples; the same has not happened for the Russian Far East because of several reasons (lack of population, expanse of land, etc etc). It's just an inherently different situation when examining the expansion of Russia (which is itself really just the expansion of Moscow's influence). I'd argue that the Russian Empire engaged in demographic manipulation more than any contemporary empire for the duration of its existence, and that the Soviet Union continued it without a thought.

As far as it not changing, well, it's 2023 and Russia's trying to genocide the Ukrainian identity yet again, so no, they seemingly have not learned anything from the past 400 years as far as Ukraine itself is concerned specifically

HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 19:38 on May 18, 2023

# ? May 18, 2023 19:30

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

HonorableTB posted:

The colonization carried Russification alongside it as a matter of course; spreading Russian control over the empty far east meant forced resettlement of the in-group population out to those areas and making them complicit in the cultural and physical replacement of the indigenous inhabitants. This happened with the Tatars, for example. They were dispersed to mostly Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan

Noted indigenous people, Tatars

# ? May 18, 2023 20:09

Sucrose: Dec 9, 2009

fatherboxx posted:

Noted indigenous people, Tatars

�Indigenous� is relative.

Who lived in Crimea immediately before the Crimean Tatars got there, was it the Crimean Goths? I think so.

# ? May 18, 2023 20:18

Molothecat: Jul 25, 2007; Wrath, hate, pain, and death!

Captain Splendid posted:

"Catch!"

This rules

# ? May 18, 2023 20:18

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

Sucrose posted:

�Indigenous� is relative.

Who lived in Crimea immediately before the Crimean Tatars got there, was it the Crimean Goths? I think so.

Yes, before they went over to sack Rome

# ? May 18, 2023 20:24

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

Lol, lmao

America: Actually we didn't give you as much as we thought we did. We actually have more available than thought

quote:

According to the agency, the reassessment of military assistance to Ukraine means that the United States has more funds than previously thought. Therefore, the need to coordinate another financial assistance package between the White House and Congress may not yet arise.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/05/18/7402844/

# ? May 18, 2023 21:10

HappyHippo: Nov 19, 2003; Do you have an Air Miles Card?

If you're interested in the history of who lived in Crimea, this post (from a blog I found thanks to this thread) has a lot of details.

# ? May 18, 2023 21:40

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Sucrose posted:

�Indigenous� is relative.

Who lived in Crimea immediately before the Crimean Tatars got there, was it the Crimean Goths? I think so.

For a while they shared the area, using the Crimea River as the mutually-agreed border between them.

# ? May 18, 2023 21:42

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

FMguru posted:

For a while they shared the area, using the Crimea River as the mutually-agreed border between them.

tales are still told of it to this day

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DksSPZTZES0

# ? May 18, 2023 21:46

karoshi: Nov 4, 2008; "Can somebody mspaint eyes on the steaming packages? TIA" yeah well fuck you too buddy, this is the best you're gonna get. Is this even "work-safe"? Let's find out!

https://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-us-could-train-ukrainian-pilots-to-fly-f-16s-in-4-months-184136820.html
During 3 weeks two Ukrainian pilots were assessed on F-16s (simulators, not air-frames). "Conclusion: it�ll take 4 months to train them, not 18, as the Pentagon has said."
https://twitter.com/michaeldweiss/status/1659271091234250752

# ? May 18, 2023 22:07

moon demon: Sep 11, 2001; of the moon, of the dream

karoshi posted:

https://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-us-could-train-ukrainian-pilots-to-fly-f-16s-in-4-months-184136820.html
During 3 weeks two Ukrainian pilots were assessed on F-16s (simulators, not air-frames). "Conclusion: it�ll take 4 months to train them, not 18, as the Pentagon has said."
https://twitter.com/michaeldweiss/status/1659271091234250752

this is good for bitcoin

# ? May 18, 2023 22:13

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

"It will take too long" always seemed like an excuse not to actually do it at all. Even before this assessment, people familiar with the stuff estimated that it would be a few months for a trained jet pilot, e.g.:

quote:

The F-16 is relatively easy to operate safely, so it�s not too high a barrier to cross for the Ukrainian Air Force. An F-16 pilot told The War Zone: �In a matter of months it�s possible for a non-familiar aviator to be reasonably safe in a jet like the F-16. The systems are easy to operate, the jet is easy to fly, and it�s very intuitive to learn. The Viper is an easy transition for an experienced fighter pilot from a pure flying perspective, no matter what type they are coming from.�

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/this-is-how-long-it-would-really-take-ukraines-pilots-to-convert-to-f-16s
Obviously weapons and tactics would take some additional training depending on the type of missions but not like years.

# ? May 18, 2023 22:30

Philonius: Jun 12, 2005

Training time was always a bullshit excuse.

"It'll take a long time to train the pilots!"

Better start now then.

# ? May 18, 2023 22:42

Drone_Fragger: May 9, 2007

Tragically I have heard that all the patriot batteries have been sadly blown up by Russia. Russia should probably take advantage of this by launching their most expensive, and ideally irreplaceable hardware at key Ukrainian targets like telephone exchanges, power pylons and old missile dumps, immediately. To any FSB agents reading this, this is good intel, please pass it up the chain.

# ? May 18, 2023 23:04

zone: Dec 6, 2016

https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1659207866543374344
:sad:

# ? May 19, 2023 00:26

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

Update it for f-16s and its a perennial meme

# ? May 19, 2023 00:36

zone: Dec 6, 2016

https://twitter.com/Flash_news_ua/status/1659256933113634818
Russia seems to be throwing nonstop missile tantrums lately. Probably desperate to do anything to delay the offensive, and in addition no longer care about maintaining even a reasonable stock of strategic missiles. Explosions were heard in Kryvyi Rih. Air defense works in Kyiv.

# ? May 19, 2023 00:40

madeintaipei: Jul 13, 2012

HappyHippo posted:

If you're interested in the history of who lived in Crimea, this post (from a blog I found thanks to this thread) has a lot of details.

It's a really interesting place. Always some sort of border land. An interstitial space for many cultures, with traces of each left behind.

You'll find people now, out and about in the rest of the world, who can trace their lineage to and through Crimea. Knew a guy in Florida who was a third generation immigrant from Crimea. Eastern Orthodox Ukrainian speaking Greeks from Simferopol who settled in Odessa, Florida.

# ? May 19, 2023 00:53

Lammasu: May 8, 2019; lawful Good Monster

mobby_6kl posted:

Yes, before they went over to sack Rome

Rome, like all things, laid low by big tiddy goth girlfriend.

# ? May 19, 2023 01:03

TK-42-1: Oct 30, 2013; looks like we have a bad transmitter

zone posted:

https://twitter.com/Flash_news_ua/status/1659256933113634818
Russia seems to be throwing nonstop missile tantrums lately. Probably desperate to do anything to delay the offensive, and in addition no longer care about maintaining even a reasonable stock of strategic missiles. Explosions were heard in Kryvyi Rih. Air defense works in Kyiv.

They seem to have realized that they have one play left and it�s all about to come tumbling down

# ? May 19, 2023 01:03

Carth Dookie: Jan 28, 2013

HonorableTB posted:

Update it for f-16s and its a perennial meme

Doesn't surprise me.

Motivation counts a fair bit and the guys learning in Ukraine have Russia shooting at them to motivate them to be as effective as possible as quickly as possible.

Big difference from a stateside recruit joining in peacetime.

# ? May 19, 2023 01:05

Automata 10 Pack: Jun 21, 2007; Ten games published by Automata, on one cassette

mobby_6kl posted:

eating pussy is extremely gay if you think about it

Nick Fuentes once said the gayest thing you could do is have sex with women. A broken clock�

# ? May 19, 2023 01:18

zone: Dec 6, 2016

Explosions heard in Volyn. Air defense worked in Rivne.
e: Explosions heard in Lviv too.

zone fucked around with this message at 02:20 on May 19, 2023

# ? May 19, 2023 01:51

Tai: Mar 8, 2006

https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1659337160867168257

Crazy old man decided to open the glue pot

# ? May 19, 2023 02:24

zone: Dec 6, 2016

Tai posted:

https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1659337160867168257

Crazy old man decided to open the glue pot

Stalin killed 60+ million people out of love bro believe us bro
Jesus Christ.

# ? May 19, 2023 02:29

Delthalaz: Mar 5, 2003; Slippery Tilde

Crimea belongs only to the descendants of the Goths and those Anglo-Saxon refugees who fled William the Conqueror. All other so-called �Crimeans� will be unwelcome under the new order.

# ? May 19, 2023 02:36

Tunicate: May 15, 2012

zone posted:

Stalin killed 60+ million people out of love bro believe us bro
Jesus Christ.

"it would have been morally wrong and evil not to invade poland alongside nazi germany"

# ? May 19, 2023 02:37

zone: Dec 6, 2016

https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1659296128032993288
"We keep losing and everyone keeps making fun of us and saying that we will lose, so we know what to do! EXECUTE EVERYBODY!"

# ? May 19, 2023 02:44

Tai: Mar 8, 2006

Tunicate posted:

"it would have been morally wrong and evil not to invade poland alongside nazi germany"

And the Baltics and Romania and Bulgaria and Moldova and Hungary and Yugoslavia and Albania and Finland

# ? May 19, 2023 02:47

HonorableTB: Dec 22, 2006

Delthalaz posted:

Anglo-Saxon

I didn't know Margarita Simonyan had a forums account!

# ? May 19, 2023 02:59

zone: Dec 6, 2016

https://twitter.com/Mylovanov/status/1659319058351702016
https://twitter.com/Rebel44CZ/status/1659345784582619144
presented without comment.

# ? May 19, 2023 03:01

Duck and Cover: Apr 6, 2007

zone posted:

https://twitter.com/Mylovanov/status/1659319058351702016
https://twitter.com/Rebel44CZ/status/1659345784582619144
presented without comment.

That isn't a tiktok or my favorite youtuber I'm not reading that poo poo. Stupid boomers learn to propaganda better. *fortnite dances away*.

edit: Actually don't learn how to propaganda better, thanks!

Duck and Cover fucked around with this message at 03:39 on May 19, 2023

# ? May 19, 2023 03:29