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drat Evrart Claire finally couldn't be a fugitive from the exercise machine any longer, according to the sunday friend!
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May 30, 2023 04:36
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Actually a pretty great video. Lots of first hand interviews, and a pretty fair hand. Interviewer is a bit haphazard -- he doesn't really know how to ask a controversial question without making it *very* leading. But still a pretty great collection. Ilmar seems incredibly shady, offering really vague responses to his takeover of the company, or his defense of the guy who still owes Estonia money. Does sound like Robert was a bad colleague, and him and the close pals took advantage knowingly or not of their colleagues picking up the slack for their work on the final cut. A lot of the stuff about asking for the source code or him dreaming out loud about how to get higher up in ZA/UM sound like clunky attempts to get full creative freedom. Maybe not, but occam. Wonder if Rostov not talking hardly at all in the joint interview was editing or just their relationship. Continues to suck that they didn't get someone who could manage Robert in charge. Ilmar comes off as such a cartoon villan.
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May 30, 2023 04:39
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Eiba posted:My favorite part of the Pale is when it's compared not something as small as anthropogenic climate change, but at the end of the game when it's compared to the Oxygen Catastrophe. If we ever get more games or books or anything set in the Disco Elysium universe I would love to get hints of some new life that lives in the pale because it's a concept that fascinates me. Some new form of existence that depends on human thought to exist the way humans depend on the oxygen from plants. It doesn't even have to be the main focus, just a hint that out in the pale something new and alien is thriving.
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May 30, 2023 04:53
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The thing about the video is that it comes back to the old problem we've discussed earlier: poo poo like that becomes obfuscation. The fundamental principle of the matter it's not about Kurvitz being an rear end in a top hat or not, it's about his rights to his own work (and the rights of Hindpere, Rostov, Luiga and everybody else). The premise being about relatability can only end up in moralism against Kurvitz. That's an ideological trap. Answering "ZA/UM founders are litigating for the product of their labor because investors cheated them" with "but the writer is a complete fucktard to work with, he is an rear end in a top hat, an absolute pain in the rear end" is misdirection. The misguided can far more easily lean into the side of the nice businessmen and nice people who didn't create poo poo and are stealing from the people who did work in its creation by being riled up into this as a matter of personal morality. (What makes this even better is that the game itself has an entire dedicated sequence of interactions on exactly this issue when dealing about Joyce and Evrart, lmao)
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May 30, 2023 06:52
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Mystic Mongol posted:I (about halfway through) am taking the exact opposite view. Kurvitz may have been up his own rear end and viewing any criticism of him as unwarranted, but that isn't justification for what Ilmar Kompus admits in the interview: That he took 4.8 million from the company in order to buy it from the other shareholders, with absolutely no documentation of literally anyone else agreeing to the scheme or any paper trail suggesting he intended to pay anything back before the court case happened. Yeah, seems like none of that would have happened if it weren’t for what Kompus did. Unfortunate that some of the people who worked on the game from the start like Kaspar Tamalsu got kind of screwed over because of it, but I hope they work things out.
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May 30, 2023 06:53
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Oxxidation posted:he thought that invisible cities should have focused more on worldbuilding. little boy clomping around in his father's shoes ...
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May 30, 2023 07:27
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dead gay comedy forums posted:That's an ideological trap. Answering "ZA/UM founders are litigating for the product of their labor because investors cheated them" with "but the writer is a complete fucktard to work with, he is an rear end in a top hat, an absolute pain in the rear end" is misdirection. The misguided can far more easily lean into the side of the nice businessmen and nice people who didn't create poo poo and are stealing from the people who did work in its creation by being riled up into this as a matter of personal morality.
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May 30, 2023 07:45
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Endorph posted:I think the writers and staff who feel slighted by Kurvitz have the right to say so without it being fundamentally misdirection from a larger, unrelated issue. I think the bigger ideological trap here is the idea, invoked by Kurvitz himself, that any criticism of him is inherently praise of capitalistic investors trying to reduce disco to marketable IP by stealing it from its creators. In light of this subject though, the specific ownership of DE... Isn't it, though? Unpleasant as he is, and as much work as others needed to put in to get the game out... That isn't relevant to ownership issues, is it? (I admit I've not seen the video yet). I mean, OUTSIDE of this issue, yes, he should be subject to this critique from the windows to the walls.
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May 30, 2023 08:00
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the problem comes from the two issues (ownership of the IP and the working conditions under which DE was made) being conflated. the video is great but it sort of accidentally falls into this by being about both. theres a sort of unintentional link that happens that because the latter issue makes kurwitz more unlikable, it damages his credibility in the former. the response by ZAUM to the initial claims was literally to invoke that he was a bad boss. which sounds like its probably true, but is completely irrelevant to the matter of the IP and company being stolen. by digging into both issues at the same time, you're continuing that diversionary link. its a really difficult situaiton to be in if you're PMG, because NOT reporting on those claims by the employees would be lovely and irresponsible, but also its exactly what the guys who stole ZAUM want the story to be about, because it isnt about them the forces of capital love to put people into no-win situations, it turns out
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May 30, 2023 08:08
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I mean, the video's premise isn't 'here is why the takeover is good,' its 'the situation is more complicated than popular opinion.' considering its a situation where anyone with even vague questions or hesitations about Kurvitz's behavior is sent death threats due to being an enemy of communism, that's not exactly a high bar to clear. It's easy to talk about The Forces of Capital, and that's undeniably a factor, but also people desperately want art they like to be made by singular superheroes who are without flaw and cannot fail, only be failed, instead of a few dozen randos with a variety of hangups and personality flaws.
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May 30, 2023 08:08
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Endorph posted:I mean, the video's premise isn't 'here is why the takeover is good,' its 'the situation is more complicated than popular opinion.' considering its a situation where anyone with even vague questions or hesitations about Kurvitz's behavior is sent death threats due to being an enemy of communism, that's not exactly a high bar to clear. It's easy to talk about The Forces of Capital, and that's undeniably a factor, but also people desperately want art they like to be made by singular superheroes who are without flaw and cannot fail, only be failed, instead of a few dozen randos with a variety of hangups and personality flaws. ...I don't think anyone here supports the idea of the great man theory but... While Kurvitz is flawed and hard to work under, does that somehow invalidate the position that the ownership of the IP was taken from him?
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May 30, 2023 08:53
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Two things can be true at once. Yes, Kurvitz, Luiga, Hindpere, Rostov, and everybody else at ZA/UM absolutely got robbed of intellectual property they put literal decades into. Yes, Kurvitz is a gaping rear end in a top hat and a bad boss who took on a leadership position despite clearly not being equipped for it. One of these things can be sorted out through a lot of apologies, a rotation in management and a healthy dose of personal reflection on the part of the offender. The other is much more serious.
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May 30, 2023 09:04
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Gaius Marius posted:The Pale is like the Bagel in EE because of how unnecessary it is to the plot. no, gently caress off, this has GOT to be a gimmick. i'm enacting a moratorium on replying to this guy
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May 30, 2023 09:08
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His name is Robert Kurvitz because that's what everyone's getting after working with him
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May 30, 2023 09:09
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studio mujahideen posted:the problem comes from the two issues (ownership of the IP and the working conditions under which DE was made) being conflated. the video is great but it sort of accidentally falls into this by being about both. theres a sort of unintentional link that happens that because the latter issue makes kurwitz more unlikable, it damages his credibility in the former. It's a frustrating catch-22 because the claims about Kurvitz are part of the legal case. They are two different stories but I don't think a journalist can entirely separate them without having either story come across as being one-sided - even if the whole "taking sides" discourse in journalism sucks in every way possible at the moment.
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May 30, 2023 09:35
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goblin week posted:His name is Robert Kurvitz because that's what everyone's getting after working with him 
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May 30, 2023 09:36
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dead gay comedy forums posted:The thing about the video is that it comes back to the old problem we've discussed earlier: poo poo like that becomes obfuscation. The fundamental principle of the matter it's not about Kurvitz being an rear end in a top hat or not, it's about his rights to his own work (and the rights of Hindpere, Rostov, Luiga and everybody else). The premise being about relatability can only end up in moralism against Kurvitz.
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May 30, 2023 09:37
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goblin week posted:His name is Robert Kurvitz because that's what everyone's getting after working with him ...idgi
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May 30, 2023 09:43
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They're getting Robbed? Maybe?
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May 30, 2023 09:46
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Samovar posted:...idgi it's a little polish language joke where "dostać [receive/get] kurwicy [homophone]" means "to go mad with anger"
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May 30, 2023 09:56
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"Kurva/Kurwa" is also an all-purpose swear word in a lot of Slavic languages similar to English "gently caress", so his name is being really close to something like "Robert Fucker" for most of eastern Europe.
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May 30, 2023 10:17
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Lt. Lizard posted:"Kurva/Kurwa" is also an all-purpose swear word in a lot of Slavic languages similar to English "gently caress", so his name is being really close to something like "Robert Fucker" for most of eastern Europe. Lmao how have I only learnt this now
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May 30, 2023 10:20
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sebmojo posted:Lmao how have I only learnt this now Really puts the bit about shedding your name to become Rafael Ambrosius Costeau in a different light, eh?
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May 30, 2023 10:58
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Samovar posted:In light of this subject though, the specific ownership of DE... Isn't it, though? Unpleasant as he is, and as much work as others needed to put in to get the game out... That isn't relevant to ownership issues, is it? (I admit I've not seen the video yet). studio mujahideen posted:the problem comes from the two issues (ownership of the IP and the working conditions under which DE was made) being conflated. the video is great but it sort of accidentally falls into this by being about both. theres a sort of unintentional link that happens that because the latter issue makes kurwitz more unlikable, it damages his credibility in the former. Is there an OUTSIDE of this issue? Is it an accidental unintional conflating? Or is this just the way capital works, that issues such as these are inherently (made to be) related and can not be treated seperately, precisely because it serves the interests of capital?
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May 30, 2023 12:03
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it’s interesting that, whatever your view of Kurvitz, the innate malevolence of the moneymen, or PMG both-sidesing the issue and any potential journalistic malpractice, it’s definitely reframed the discussion to the character of Kurvitz. The sanctions against Hindpere and Rostov, or any claim they might have to the IP, have fallen by the wayside. How could Kurvitz being a bad boss justify them also being fired and losing their claims the company. It’s an interesting video, and clearly came from a place of deep respect and interest, but it’s neither informative enough to really clear things up nor sufficiently polemic to really improve the lot of the workers of ZA/UM or the original creators. Definitely a wasted opportunity, and I really hope it won’t lead to an exhausting war of position over whether Kurvitz is an self obsessed artist who deserves anything that happens to him or a martyr of the forces of capital
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May 30, 2023 12:14
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The issue is that DE is the result of all of these necessary people coming together for just long enough to get one game out, and then it all fell apart. Kurvitz should get his IP back, but if you are holding out hope for DE2 then it's an inescapable problem for you if he is so much of an unprofessional rear end in a top hat that nobody will ever work with him again.
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May 30, 2023 12:53
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If this was created in a non-capitalist society, who would own the IP?
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May 30, 2023 12:57
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i am a moron posted:If this was created in a non-capitalist society, who would own the IP? What does the P in IP stand for?
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May 30, 2023 13:13
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It was a rhetorical question. Framing it as a ‘forces of capital’ thing is disingenuous, it’s a bunch of assholes and scammers (some more successfully than others) taking future money and credit from all the people whose work contributed to what DE is. Communists crying about IP, lmao
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May 30, 2023 13:15
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i am a moron posted:It was a rhetorical question. Framing it as a ‘forces of capital’ thing is disingenuous, it’s a bunch of assholes and scammers (some more successfully than others) taking future money and credit from all the people whose work contributed to what DE is. Communists crying about IP, lmao if you frame it like that, sure. But losing the world you’ve been (collectively) developing for more than 20 years to a - at the very least - dubiously trustworthy business is more than just crying about IP.
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May 30, 2023 13:19
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i am a moron posted:If this was created in a non-capitalist society, who would own the IP? post/username combo
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May 30, 2023 13:52
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i am a moron posted:If this was created in a non-capitalist society, who would own the IP? maybe the king maybe the dead ancestors maybe the workers maybe no one maybe the ministry of culture maybe god and the saints impossible to say
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May 30, 2023 14:02
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oscarthewilde posted:if you frame it like that, sure. But losing the world you’ve been (collectively) developing for more than 20 years to a - at the very least - dubiously trustworthy business is more than just crying about IP. I feel like that’s fair. I also feel like complaining about how this is capitalisms problem when the systems it’s being compared against specifically eschew this kind of ownership at all is a weird take.
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May 30, 2023 14:24
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i am a moron posted:I feel like that’s fair. I also feel like complaining about how this is capitalisms problem when the systems it’s being compared against specifically eschew this kind of ownership at all is a weird take. with, for example, universal basic income or public arts funding it would be way easier to get a product like this off the ground or continue to make new games in the world, instead they had to get sponsorship from a nationalist psychopath who now owns their ideas
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May 30, 2023 14:31
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Kurvitz doesn't live in a country building socialism that would be transitioning away from intellectual or any other form of property rights, let alone a communist society where such rights have been fully done away with. He (presumably) lives in the inbred bog early-adopter of industrial capitalism otherwise known as the UK. He therefore has to engage with its laws, corporate structures, etc. which will naturally favor people like Kompus over people like himself. Just because he's a communist doesn't mean he should throw his hands up and say "well I don't think property rights should exist, therefore Kompus is free to take my (and others') lifetime efforts so he can use it to sell overpriced clothing or TV deals."dead gay comedy forums posted:The thing about the video is that it comes back to the old problem we've discussed earlier: poo poo like that becomes obfuscation. The fundamental principle of the matter it's not about Kurvitz being an rear end in a top hat or not, it's about his rights to his own work (and the rights of Hindpere, Rostov, Luiga and everybody else). The premise being about relatability can only end up in moralism against Kurvitz. Also this. I think the journalists here did a good job on their research and this came from good intentions, but there's some eyebrow-raising moments throughout. I understand why they brought up things like current ZAUM employees getting death threats or whatever but 1) those people aren't representative of the millions of people who enjoyed the game and 2) weirdos like that likely wouldn't watch this video or be persuaded by its appeal to stop harassing ZAUM employees anyway. Couching all of that in "worker solidarity" language is just off base. The current ZAUM employees are in a lovely spot. They work for an alleged IP thief and some of them had to put up with allegedly toxic behavior from Kurvitz, but it's not as though Kurvitz was a union-buster who tried to break their cohesion as workers relative to management. He was, at worst, an abrasive or absentee prima donna during the Final Cut's development. The journalists mention several times that current ZAUM employees were scared to come forward because of online harassment/retaliation, but what went unsaid was the potential for retaliation from their current employer, ZAUM. They still have a stake in how the company comes across because it's how they feed themselves and their families. Nothing necessarily wrong about that of course, but it's clearly a motivating factor in their allegations, intentional or not. I think it's telling that so much of ZAUM's criticisms of Kurvitz and Hindpere are focused on what was essentially an expansion pack that started development right after the base game launched. The vast majority of labor from the ousted creatives would have been focused on the base game's development from writing to art assets, etc. And both Kurvitz and Hindpere say that most of their work during Final Cut's development related to voiceover work, but the journalists never follow that up. A lot of hay is made with Kurvitz and Rostov taking 2 months' paid leave after the game launched which from the sound of things was simply taking all their PTO + sick leave at once. I can understand why other employees might have resented that, but presumably Kurvitz and Rostov were burnt out from the crunch of the base game and whatever their Final Cut contributions were and I doubt either one of them were responsible for approving and/or scheduling requests for time off so it's mis-directed resentment at the end of the day. MeatwadIsGod fucked around with this message at 16:09 on May 30, 2023 |
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May 30, 2023 14:31
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oscarthewilde posted:It’s an interesting video, and clearly came from a place of deep respect and interest, but it’s neither informative enough to really clear things up nor sufficiently polemic to really improve the lot of the workers of ZA/UM or the original creators. Definitely a wasted opportunity, and I really hope it won’t lead to an exhausting war of position over whether Kurvitz is an self obsessed artist who deserves anything that happens to him or a martyr of the forces of capital Disagree on the first bit, in that the first hand accounts he gets are substantive. We get details on what the actual allegations they're using to justify firing Kurvitz are, and they talk to most of the big players. Some of that is validating priors, Ilmar incredibly poorly dodging any question about why his takeover was necessary or how it benefiting ZA/UM, but learning the general dynamics that led to the creators ousting is new info. Agree on the later that ending the video on Kurvitz not being empathetic enough is a shame when he's kind of right in his response, even if it's cold. And in the general point that the IP theft matters more.
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May 30, 2023 14:49
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i am a moron posted:I feel like that’s fair. I also feel like complaining about how this is capitalisms problem when the systems it’s being compared against specifically eschew this kind of ownership at all is a weird take. The capitalist process is what's keeping him from working on DE2. If this were kumbaya communist fantasy world, he could recruit a team to work on DE2 while another team of hangers-on imitators tries to make their own DE2, sure.
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May 30, 2023 15:16
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Endorph posted:I think the writers and staff who feel slighted by Kurvitz have the right to say so without it being fundamentally misdirection from a larger, unrelated issue. I think the bigger ideological trap here is the idea, invoked by Kurvitz himself, that any criticism of him is inherently praise of capitalistic investors trying to reduce disco to marketable IP by stealing it from its creators. To which: Samovar posted:I mean, OUTSIDE of this issue, yes, he should be subject to this critique from the windows to the walls. studio mujahideen posted:the problem comes from the two issues (ownership of the IP and the working conditions under which DE was made) being conflated [...] but also its exactly what the guys who stole ZAUM want the story to be about, because it isnt about them armpit_enjoyer posted:Two things can be true at once. That's why it's important to notice this sleight of hand. Situations like this is how this obfuscation operates and it happens constantly elsewhere, especially on politics. Hell, it happens on your work. Also, to further develop the "both things can be true at once", a pretty bad collateral effect of this type of discourse is that agreeing with one point is taken as rejection of the other, even though they are not oppositional but rather in parallel. A is Kurvitz is a raging rear end in a top hat and hard to deal with. Well yeah, that's what his colleague and ZA/UM's former main editor Martin Luiga already said months ago (not with these words ofc). Hopefully, this experience will help him to be a better person, do repairs, apologize, own up his mistakes and understand that artistic passion actually can get along pretty well with empathy and care with the people working alongside you. And that they will have your back when bullshit like that happens. B is ZA/UM founders should have the creative rights of their labor. They had it stolen from them. The people who stole it are arguing legally that actually there is no theft because, among other things, the main writer Robert Kurvitz was a raging rear end in a top hat. (Notice how the character of others do not come up into play. Hindpere, Rostov, Luiga and the others do not have their character highlighted here because it makes their fumble weaker: they are robbing all of them, not just Kurvitz) So A gets mashed together with B to make it a matter of moralism, of dealing with character failure and whatnot, because otherwise it becomes much more clearly a matter of financial and legal maneuvering by not-too-well-intentioned parties (with convictions of investment fraud even) against a group of workers who managed to create a game that overcame their wildest expectations and became a major achievement in the medium, thus becoming a somewhat valuable property. It doesn't look good at all when it's laid like that. It looks like banditry.
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May 30, 2023 16:55
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MeatwadIsGod posted:
This is extremely striking to me too. It feels like reaching for any narrative at all that frames them badly. It reminds me of a personal work experience I had when management bent over backwards to find a way to give me a bad review to prevent me from getting a big raise, and the narrative they landed on was that I did a bad job keeping numbers up on a thing that wasn’t my job for approximately two weeks in December. If there’s money to be made by loving someone over, owners will always find some justification. Fundamentally, this is all chaff to distract from the actual issue at hand. Even if the creators were genuine monsters with zero redeeming qualities (which is far from the case based on this) that has no bearing on the IP issue.
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That slack message tipped me over the edge, it's totally a corporate sacking message type.
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