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FuturePastNow posted:Yes. In a way I think they were in an arms race there, with each rejoining they weakened Hydaelyn and strengthened Zodiark, but they were also making the mortals of the Source stronger each time. At least at the kind of aetheric combat needed to really fight them. They also hosed up by trying to push another rejoining so fast, while people who remembered them still lived. If they'd waited maybe.. 20 years.. stalled for a bit of time time.. they would've had a better shot.
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Jun 4, 2023 04:33
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the_steve posted:I personally don't see the whole "LAHABREA WAS SECRETLY/INADVERTENTLY WORSHIPPING ATHENA" theory as making any sense. Counterpoint, "A sliver of my gods power" being the spell Ultima using the same chant as Athena after empowering the heart of sabik. A spell no other Ascians, or Zodiark, uses ever. Although in terms of Ultima the High Seraph specifically. Do remember that she is the inter-dimensional predator summoned to the Source. Then around that mindless predator was formed a Primal with consciousness by faith and belief (Susanoo style).
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Jun 4, 2023 04:33
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The only thing that strikes me as particularly odd about the theory is that Ultima Weapon is cited as being darkness-aspected like Zodiark, as opposed to the very much light-aspected Ultima. I don't think any of the Werlyt Weapons were different on that front either, but none of those had any particular affinities aside from Sapphire being water and Ruby maybe being earth. But you can probably chalk that up to certain details being set up before the Ultima thing was planned out.
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Jun 4, 2023 04:44
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Gearhead posted:They also hosed up by trying to push another rejoining so fast, while people who remembered them still lived. If they'd waited maybe.. 20 years.. stalled for a bit of time time.. they would've had a better shot. Maybe the First was destabilizing so quickly they had to get an Apocalypse running now
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Jun 4, 2023 04:45
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Lord_Magmar posted:Counterpoint, "A sliver of my gods power" being the spell Ultima using the same chant as Athena after empowering the heart of sabik. A spell no other Ascians, or Zodiark, uses ever. Also the fact that the entire reason the Hephaistos half of him was severed off was the fact that he was under her sway. By rejoining with himself, that problem comes back.
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Jun 4, 2023 04:47
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YggiDee posted:Maybe the First was destabilizing so quickly they had to get an Apocalypse running now The First was destabilizing because they were gearing up to drop another Calamity using Thordan and the Heavensward as a Calamity of Light. We just didn't see the back half of what they were doing because it didn't become a problem until Lahabrea failed to produce a Calamity on cue.
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Jun 4, 2023 04:51
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Lord_Magmar posted:Counterpoint, "A sliver of my gods power" being the spell Ultima using the same chant as Athena after empowering the heart of sabik. A spell no other Ascians, or Zodiark, uses ever. I mean, let's not be saying things like "Zodiark never did x," because we absolutely don't have enough information to say that definitively about most things. I highly doubt that the writers are trying to imply that Lahabrea was secretly worshiping Athena though. I just think he was repeating words from the ravages of his madness compromised memory.
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Jun 4, 2023 06:27
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sweet geek swag posted:I mean, let's not be saying things like "Zodiark never did x," because we absolutely don't have enough information to say that definitively about most things. I highly doubt that the writers are trying to imply that Lahabrea was secretly worshiping Athena though. I just think he was repeating words from the ravages of his madness compromised memory. At the end of the day Athena was just another pawn in all of this, the Heart of Sabik belongs to Ultima and seems to be a prototype for every Auracite to come later that ultimately turns its user into a Lucavi. Do I think Lahabrea was directly worshiping Cognitohazard Lavos, though? Probably not. But I think he'd had the Heart for long enough, and eroded enough of himself from body hopping without ceasing for 12000 years that he had lost sight of what his actual end goal was beyond Blowing poo poo Up and, in moments where he wasn't paying attention, he was starting to forget what his deeper motivations were. Something was making him veer off course. Gearhead fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Jun 4, 2023 |
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Jun 4, 2023 06:41
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sweet geek swag posted:I mean, let's not be saying things like "Zodiark never did x," because we absolutely don't have enough information to say that definitively about most things. i don't think you need to hold any mental space for the possibility that somewhere in the fictional timeline zodiark cast ultima at one point. it's not real, if they wanted us to know that ultima is a zodiark thing, they would have put it in the trial. instead he doesn't, and then very conspicuously we get an explanation that the heart of sabik, that casts ultima and is the sliver in question, is actually linked to ultima the high seraph and not to zodiark (despite its name). these pieces line up because they are supposed to line up. e: though "he's just repeating random memory poo poo" is a perfectly viable read, imo. if anything i honestly don't think lahabrea's state of mind w/r/t what he means by that statement is even really relevant in the grand scheme of things or what they cared about when writing this. imo the auracite stuff in this patch is mostly the writers circling back to ARR and pointing at the heart of sabik and saying "hey the reason that doesn't seem to have anything to do with zodiark is because it doesn't have anything to do with zodiark. it's from an alien. so that's not a dangling question anymore, unless we decide to revisit the alien thing. okay thanks". the lahabrea connection to it is going to hang mostly as implication that each individual player is free to pick up and run with for their preferred distance, because it's probably not going to come up again and warrant a definitive answer (barring like...lahabrea short story on the website, i guess). unless 7.0 is really really different from they've indicated so far i don't expect any more reference to it than, at most, an unlockable dialogue option that causes a brief cut to a sepia-toned screenshot of old man lahabrea holding the heart of sabik and then a screenshot of a cackling ascian lahabrea at the praetorium. Valentin fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Jun 4, 2023 |
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Jun 4, 2023 06:55
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I don't think they're going to go into further detail with it, but I think they retroactively implied an Athena-related agenda because this is the raid series to make Lahabrea more interesting, and that retroactive implication allows them to add a little more depth to modern Lahabrea instead of just saying "well he was interesting back then".
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Jun 4, 2023 07:19
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SirSamVimes posted:I don't think they're going to go into further detail with it, but I think they retroactively implied an Athena-related agenda because this is the raid series to make Lahabrea more interesting, and that retroactive implication allows them to add a little more depth to modern Lahabrea instead of just saying "well he was interesting back then". To a degree Lahabrea has the opposite problem to all the other still-relevant Ancients. He was boring in the present day but was an interesting and compelling character pre-sundering, while for Emet, Venat and Themis I feel like we got those characters before they got any of their compelling character traits.
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Jun 4, 2023 07:30
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I also want to point out that it isn't like Lahabrea was wandering around with the Heart of Sabik in his pocket, listening to Athena mutter to him. The Heart was dormant to the point that the Garleans didn't even know it existed, at least up until the point that Gaius slammed three primals into it.
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Jun 4, 2023 07:46
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I mean a "sliver" could just be a fractional term, and doesn't necessarily imply Lahabrea is referring to Athena/Ultima as his god in that moment. People seem to be putting a ton of weight there, especially since that line is like a decade old.
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Jun 4, 2023 07:52
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Gearhead posted:The First was destabilizing because they were gearing up to drop another Calamity using Thordan and the Heavensward as a Calamity of Light. We just didn't see the back half of what they were doing because it didn't become a problem until Lahabrea failed to produce a Calamity on cue. Ultima Weapon was supposed to be set up as the cause of the next Calamity first, that's the whole reason why Lahabrea was helping Gaius and his merry band of traitors in the first place; the reveal that the Heart is actually tied to Ultima (alien monster) rather than Zodiark (and therefore Light instead of Darkness) actually retcons it to make a whole lot more sense in the bigger picture.
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Jun 4, 2023 09:11
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So basically all three of the big plots leading up to Shadowbringers were light aligned then? Ultima weapon, at least potentially in ARR, then the Thordan plot, then Black Rose, yeah? Edit: Kind of does explain how things went to poo poo for them on the First, especially as time there may have been going faster than on the Source. Honestly the weird time fluctuation thing seems like a loving nightmare to manage if you're trying to time things for a cataclysm. Also, I suppose the whole warriors of darkness arc may have been orchestrated by Elidibus as well. Perhaps not entirely intentionally, but allowing Hydaelyn to step in and stop the flood of light gave them a breather on completing the cataclysm before the whole shard was overwhelmed. bobtheconqueror fucked around with this message at 12:14 on Jun 4, 2023 |
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Jun 4, 2023 12:07
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bobtheconqueror posted:So basically all three of the big plots leading up to Shadowbringers were light aligned then? Ultima weapon, at least potentially in ARR, then the Thordan plot, then Black Rose, yeah? Yeah, all of those events were intended to trigger a Light-aspected Calamity and the rejoining of the First, because the First was the world they had ready for rejoining. Presumably they weren't prepping more than one shard at once, given how easily it seems like it'd go off the rails.
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Jun 4, 2023 12:12
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Regalingualius posted:https://twitter.com/goldfishu/status/1665151674384629762?s=46&t=8qKeRz1MPwpnqaU9WYBJgg The rains have ceased. And we have been graced with another beautiful day. But you are not here to see it.
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Jun 4, 2023 12:29
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Another thing to remember is that the 7th calamity being lessened by Louisoix was kind of a double edged sword for the Ascians. On the one hand it meant that since things weren't all destroyed there was a good opportunity to get another calamity going quickly. But on the other hand it meant it hadn't killed all their enemies so people knew about them and were prepared to continue to fight them. If the ascians had just waited it's not like the scions would've let their knowledge of them just disappear. The longer they waited the more opportunity mortals would have had to study and prepare for their eventual return. They kind of had no choice but to try to get another calamity rolling as quickly as possible.
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Jun 4, 2023 12:30
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bobtheconqueror posted:I mean a "sliver" could just be a fractional term, and doesn't necessarily imply Lahabrea is referring to Athena/Ultima as his god in that moment. People seem to be putting a ton of weight there, especially since that line is like a decade old. This is how I read it as well. He's not saying "MY god can cast THIS EXACT SPELL but stronger" he's just saying his god is stronger than the thing you're about to see, which will be the last thing you ever see, because surely it's going to kill you this time. You can't read swiss cheese brain's words too literally.
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Jun 4, 2023 14:05
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Regy Rusty posted:Another thing to remember is that the 7th calamity being lessened by Louisoix was kind of a double edged sword for the Ascians. On the one hand it meant that since things weren't all destroyed there was a good opportunity to get another calamity going quickly. But on the other hand it meant it hadn't killed all their enemies so people knew about them and were prepared to continue to fight them. If the ascians had just waited it's not like the scions would've let their knowledge of them just disappear. The longer they waited the more opportunity mortals would have had to study and prepare for their eventual return. They kind of had no choice but to try to get another calamity rolling as quickly as possible. This, basically. All six previous Umbral Calamities triggered complete societal collapse, the end of entire civilizations. #7 though, thanks to Louisoix, just 5 years and we're back on our feet. It means we can take another Calamity sooner, yeah... but it also means getting that Calamity going as soon as possible is critical precisely because of what you just described; "oh poo poo they know about us and can start preparing ways to actually fight us effectively and potentially perma-kill us. OH poo poo THEY JUST DID IT TO NABRIALES"
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Jun 4, 2023 14:54
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I just watched the P12S fight cause that's not the sort of content I do, and I gotta say the mechanical references to the Ivalice raids in phase 2 is a really neat touch. The dark angelic summons and having helm break in there is neat, along with using similar invocations.
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Jun 4, 2023 15:10
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Also to be clear around some of this didcussion. The Heart of Sabik is in fact the result of Athena's research into Auracite. It is not the original Auracite she discovered, or if it is, she modified it further. Auracite also can be artificially made, and from sources other than Ultima the High Seraph. Who is, in of herself, an interdimensional being brought to the Source, imprisoned, and worshipped until a Primal was built around the original interdimensional being. Her existence is weird, and Athena's madness may not have necessarily been anything Ultima intended or planned if they ever met. In any case, the Heart of Sabik is directly stated to be Athena's thing regardless of origins.
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Jun 4, 2023 15:34
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From her TT card, Ultima may not have even been conscious until the primal manifestation - before that, Ultima was just the name for "the corrupting/destructive energy inside auracite". That would mean that there was no real entity to actively influence the original Athena, just the properties of auracite affecting her.
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Jun 4, 2023 16:09
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I suppose that this will be a fuzzy subject until such a time as we get more information, and perhaps a better idea of what's going on besides a straight up Ivalice reference written by Matsuno. They certainly seem to be thinking about how it all fits into the greater setting without it just being a direct crossover.
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Jun 4, 2023 17:03
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BlazetheInferno posted:This, basically. Even if they did kill all the Scions, Sharlayan might have been "Hm," especially since several of the key Scions were the beloved children of a Forum member. Sharlayan was also among the nation-states most likely to survive the early stages of a Calamity something like intact; it's not impossible they would have started going to the Moon and met the rabbits and realized something's going on.
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Jun 4, 2023 19:19
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Even if Sharlayan knew everything and was in position to prevent it, they'd probably just bunker up and try to survive the 8th calamity.
Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Jun 4, 2023 |
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Jun 4, 2023 19:29
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Even if Sharlayan knew everything and was in position to prevent it, they'd probably just bunker up and try to survive the 8th calamity. The forum, sure, but what if one prominent scholar and a his disciples decided it was worth looking into and headed to Eorzea...
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Jun 4, 2023 19:33
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Even if the scions spread word of the Ascians all over, very few people are going to remember or care after a couple of centuries of no evidence that the Ascians still exist. The Ascians could have just laid low and probably been fine.
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Jun 4, 2023 20:32
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https://twitter.com/DirtelfB/status/1665137862990340096
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Jun 4, 2023 20:38
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She definitely looked younger in 1.0 thanks to her preference for lighter clothes. The reading glasses and her natural white hair just dramatically shift the feel with a more modest dress. I always forget how harsh/blown out the lighting looks in most 1.0 screenshots. 
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Jun 4, 2023 21:04
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F’lhaminn larping as a little old lady and retiring is completely fine, she's earned her chance to leave all this to people who are younger and more foolhardy than her. One of these days, though, I kinda hope that she reminds people that Cat Mom knows how to throw down.
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Jun 4, 2023 21:23
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The Sexy Grandma look gets play.
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Jun 4, 2023 22:17
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I only knew of F'lhaminn as the Rising Stones bartender that Thancred poorly flirts with while he's wasted sometime in 2.0 or 2.x. the fact that she was supposed to be coded as older/Minfilia's adopted mother really came out of left field for me
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Jun 4, 2023 22:26
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God Hole posted:I only knew of F'lhaminn as the Rising Stones bartender that Thancred poorly flirts with while he's wasted sometime in 2.0 or 2.x. Okay that's odd because part of the 2.x MSQ is about finding Minfillia's long lost mother and them reuniting just before they move to the Rising Stones. It's kind of a nice little mini-arc.
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Jun 4, 2023 22:30
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Thancred spends a lot of time during 2.x wasted in the Rising Stones after his possession, so I think it happened then. Moenbryda drinks him under the table at some point too was she long lost? i thought she was just missing from the bar for a bit and you end up locating her on the balcony at Rowena's
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Jun 4, 2023 22:37
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God Hole posted:was she long lost? i thought she was just missing for a bit and you end up locating her on the balcony at Rowena's She was thought to have died during the 7th Calamity, though no body is ever found, and the Warrior of Light is sent to chase a rumor that she's actually still alive, which of course turns out to be true. She agrees to help convince Minfilia move to the Rising Stones on the condition that you help her find the last ingredients for a perfume she's been making.
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Jun 4, 2023 22:39
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BlazetheInferno posted:She was thought to have died during the 7th Calamity, though no body is ever found, and the Warrior of Light is sent to chase a rumor that she's actually still alive, which of course turns out to be true. She agrees to help convince Minfilia move to the Rising Stones on the condition that you help her find the last ingredients for a perfume she's been making. ah okay I got my timelines mixed up a bit. Im thinking of the time you had to find and break the news to her about Minfilia
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Jun 4, 2023 22:42
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I wonder if part of the reasons the Ascians got impatient is that the Unsundered, while they didn't age, weren't exactly doing well. Lahabrea was going a bit nutso, Elidibus was losing himself and Emet Selch was also not exactly doing well. And they weren't exactly becoming good friends over the centuries. They might fear that if they just laid low for a couple of centuries while the stories about bad Ascians faded into myths, that they might be too emotionally and mentally worn down and eroded to be effective.
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Jun 4, 2023 22:59
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Shogeton posted:I wonder if part of the reasons the Ascians got impatient is that the Unsundered, while they didn't age, weren't exactly doing well. Lahabrea was going a bit nutso, Elidibus was losing himself and Emet Selch was also not exactly doing well. And they weren't exactly becoming good friends over the centuries. They might fear that if they just laid low for a couple of centuries while the stories about bad Ascians faded into myths, that they might be too emotionally and mentally worn down and eroded to be effective.
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Jun 4, 2023 23:29
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I’m not sure if it was impatience over seeing the opportunity to do another one and taking it. Emet-Selch at least went to have a nap but both the source and the first were basically primed to have another go and they just didn’t want to waste the opportunity. They had a plan (and multiple backup plans) so it’s not like they just yolod the whole thing out of urgency.
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Jun 4, 2023 23:34
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