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Cannon_Fodder posted:I didn't do it, goddamnit, but I'm going to make some rules so I don't do it again. No. Firstly, this change was before it happened, with the key provision signed by Putin a week ago. And the change isn't "this shouldn't happen", it's "if there is a regrettable accident, it is no-one's fault" and also "no-one is required to verify the condition of dams in the occupied territories". (edit:) This change in law, made just a week ago, is the largest loving smoking gun that it was in fact entirely intentional act by Russia. It compares in scale to the new regulations for construction of mass graves that were distributed just before the invasion.
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# ? Jun 6, 2023 21:43 |
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# ? Jun 6, 2024 08:35 |
I don't get why Russia would bother trying to make neglect of the dam legal. It's not like that will stop any of the people in the world who wants to hold Russia accountable for its destruction (regardless of how it happened), and I don't see how telling "we can't be blamed for not doing our jobs" to their domestic audience helps them in any way either.
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# ? Jun 6, 2023 21:50 |
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Why are they even bothering with laws anymore?
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# ? Jun 6, 2023 21:51 |
You need a veneer for domestic stability
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# ? Jun 6, 2023 21:52 |
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OMOH need something to ignore.
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# ? Jun 6, 2023 22:04 |
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cr0y posted:Why are they even bothering with laws anymore? because fascists love pointless bureaucracy
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# ? Jun 6, 2023 22:05 |
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Just something I wanted to throw out there, before the US releases whatever Intel they said they're going to declassify: One of the first thoughts I had last night, as the first reports came out, was that the dam might've been blown during a Ukrainian attempt to capture the left-bank side of the HPP. I don't think any corroborating evidence for that has come out so far. There probably would have been, by now.
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# ? Jun 6, 2023 22:10 |
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https://twitter.com/michaeldweiss/status/1666197378645327872 If this isn't just hearsay and rumours, but actually based on observed fact and public statements, that's pretty rad. Five to ten kilometers of push in a couple of days through defenses that have been prepared and fortified for up to half a year seems like a pretty big deal.
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# ? Jun 6, 2023 22:51 |
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Handsome Ralph posted:Didn't see this posted but apparently a European intelligence agency discovered a plot by Ukraine to blow up the Nordstream prior to it actually blowing up last fall and passed it on to the CIA. Kesper North posted:Weird how this story, based on Discord leaks which were believed to have been edited, came out the day after Russia does something extremely mediapathic in Ukraine A.o.D. posted:The article states that the report is very detailed but the details are "trust us bro" and that we are supposed to believe that only six people conducted this underwater demolition activity. I suppose it's possible but I'll need more than the allegations. As a point of comparison, see what was known about the 911 hijackers after this much time. Also lol Wasabi the J fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Jun 6, 2023 |
# ? Jun 6, 2023 23:06 |
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Wasabi the J posted:Source: texeira discord chats and trust us bro. The article also says the plan was shelved but then goes on to assume the Ukrainians did it anyway. Kinda suspect journalism.
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# ? Jun 6, 2023 23:09 |
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for all the 'lol russia is a failed state' stuff they really aren't and they do have a relatively robust legal system (albeit certain things and people very, very much find a way to end up sheltered from its reach) and a wide range of both de facto and de jure civil and human rights enshrined in law and constitution that the government is obligated to protect and respect. yes that is somewhat optimistic relative to practical realities, but it's not completely printed on toilet paper either. blowing the dam or otherwise letting the circumstances accumulate for it to fail (at a time that conveniently happens to inundate a Ukrainian offensive's likely crossing spots) isn't going to be a legal action in almost any government that has a legal duty to protect citizens down river. This doubly became an issue in light of the annexation because de jure all the people impacted on the left bank (and lol arguably many on the right, too, if we're taking the annexation strictly at face value) are citizens and inhabitants of Russia to whom the Russian government is obligated to protect. basically it reads to me as legal cover to 'do it if you have to do it.' I'm inclined to agree that they extremely would prefer not to have had to blow the dam for obvious reasons relating to their own defenses and Crimea's water supply, but also if it was required to blow it (or neglect it to the point of failure w/e) in order to stop a Ukrainian offensive, I can believe they would do it. besides, if Ukraine recaptures the left bank, it's not like Crimea is getting water again anyways. anyways I'm just some rear end in a top hat with an opinion from following russian foreign policy for a bit over a decade, i.e. a dilettante. i really look forward to more information coming out and actual experts weighing in eventually because the whole thing is loving wild Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Jun 6, 2023 |
# ? Jun 6, 2023 23:14 |
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Herstory Begins Now posted:for all the 'lol russia is a failed state' stuff they really aren't and they do have a relatively robust legal system (albeit certain things and people very, very much find a way to end up sheltered from its reach) and a wide range of both de facto and de jure civil and human rights enshrined in law and constitution that the government is obligated to protect and respect.
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# ? Jun 6, 2023 23:21 |
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^ russia sucks an unbelievable amount of rear end on virtually every conceivable level and yes they have tiers of people that are untouchable to their legal system and extremely touchable to their legal system (and other non-legal coercive systems), but they very much still have a legal system and legal framework that they ostensibly draw legitimacy from and are required to at least pretend to be upholding. occasionally it even has teeth and will defend relatively sympathetic groups of Russians.
Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Jun 6, 2023 |
# ? Jun 6, 2023 23:24 |
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Herstory Begins Now posted:^ russia sucks an unbelievable amount of rear end on virtually every conceivable level and yes they have tiers of people that are untouchable to their legal system and extremely touchable to their legal system (and other non-legal coercive systems), but they very much still have a legal system and legal framework that they ostensibly draw legitimacy from and are required to at least pretend to be upholding until you criticize it, then you get locked away and tortured
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# ? Jun 6, 2023 23:26 |
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Sorry people, Russia said it blew up 250 enemy armored vehicles today and achieved a KDR of over 52:1. At this rate those 9 brigades stop existing in 3 days or something in exchange for one or two companies.
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# ? Jun 6, 2023 23:27 |
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Bum the Sad posted:until you criticize it, then you get locked away and tortured yes? i invite you to go through my post history and try to find a single post of me uncritically supporting russia. I guarantee you that you will not find a single one. You will find me arguing poo poo like 'russia actually has been tactically adapting this entire time' and other critiques of the weird messaging wrt russia that is pretty much ubiquitous in english language spaces, but you will find literally nothing ambiguous about which side I consider unequivocally in the wrong. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Jun 6, 2023 |
# ? Jun 6, 2023 23:30 |
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mlmp08 posted:Sorry people, Russia said it blew up 250 enemy armored vehicles today and achieved a KDR of over 52:1. the bear has awoken.......
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# ? Jun 6, 2023 23:50 |
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Herstory Begins Now posted:yes? i invite you to go through my post history and try to find a single post of me uncritically supporting russia. I guarantee you that you will not find a single one. You will find me arguing poo poo like 'russia actually has been tactically adapting this entire time' and other critiques of the weird messaging wrt russia that is pretty much ubiquitous in english language spaces, but you will find literally nothing ambiguous about which side I consider unequivocally in the wrong. My dude you're the one posting fan fiction about russia having a wide range of both de facto and de jure civil and human rights enshrined in law and constitution that the government is obligated to protect and respect which falls apart because Bum the Sad posted:lol, until you criticize Putin, or maybe act a little gay, or wear blue and yellow and get 30 years in prison for treason/a face full of polonium
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# ? Jun 6, 2023 23:51 |
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I think the point being made was that while Russian domestic law is largely kayfabe, kayfabe itself has rules and forms that must be respected
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# ? Jun 7, 2023 00:00 |
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shame on an IGA posted:I think the point being made was that while Russian domestic law is largely kayfabe, kayfabe itself has rules and forms that must be respected I don't think that "having a wide range of both de facto and de jure civil and human rights enshrined in law and constitution that the government is obligated to protect and respect" can be described as kayfabe.
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# ? Jun 7, 2023 00:02 |
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shame on an IGA posted:I think the point being made was that while Russian domestic law is largely kayfabe, kayfabe itself has rules and forms that must be respected This is it. Law is surprisingly important inside Russia, and you can usually defend yourself by very strictly adhering to the letter of the law. See the bunch of cops who refused to take part in the invasion because the paperwork was wrong (they had orders that required them to enter Ukraine, but by Russian law you are always supposed to have a passport with you when you cross the border of the federation, and they didn't have any passports, and therefore argued that they could not legally follow the order). You'd expect that people who refuse order to go to the front would be made examples of, but instead the court ruled in favor of them. If you attract the attention of the all-highest, all of that is moot, of course. But other than that, Russia has poo poo laws, but laws still matter. This was true of the Soviet Union too. The common image of the Soviet commissar is some rear end in a top hat who is executing disobeying soldiers with a pistol in the field without any kind of process. While this did occasionally happen, it's mostly nazi propaganda. The nazis absolutely did that, and they projected that to the Soviets too. But almost every soldier executed in Soviet service was shot after a trial. The trial would of course be a show trial, but the fact that there was a trial mattered deeply to the people holding the trials, even if the difference might seem academic to us.
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# ? Jun 7, 2023 00:14 |
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A perfect example of Russian jurisprudence calvinball: Conscripts cannot be deployed outside of Russia, so in order to get around that Russia annexes regions they don't fully control, and in one case they don't even control the capital of. The law still remains, but the practice has rendered the right meaningless, as conscripts can now be deployed to invade a sovereign nation.
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# ? Jun 7, 2023 00:15 |
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shame on an IGA posted:I think the point being made was that while Russian domestic law is largely kayfabe, kayfabe itself has rules and forms that must be respected Yeah it's this more or less, though it isn't entirely kayfabe either insofar as some of it is quite earnest (though I'm definitely not about to argue that Russia's legal system is especially effective from really anyone's perspective). Russia has been changing their laws throughout the course of the war because russian courts had a pesky habit of actually siding with people refusing unlawful orders (when they cared to object) or refusing to deploy. It doesn't get remarked upon much, but the tightening of laws since the start of this round of the war has been almost certainly the single biggest constriction of both real and on-paper freedoms in post-soviet Russia. Tuna-Fish posted:This is it. Law is surprisingly important inside Russia, and you can usually defend yourself by very strictly adhering to the letter of the law. See the bunch of cops who refused to take part in the invasion because the paperwork was wrong (they had orders that required them to enter Ukraine, but by Russian law you are always supposed to have a passport with you when you cross the border of the federation, and they didn't have any passports, and therefore argued that they could not legally follow the order). You'd expect that people who refuse order to go to the front would be made examples of, but instead the court ruled in favor of them. yeah pretty much. russian bureaucratic and legal systems being slavishly devoted to doing things by the letter of the law (or in reality, much more often, using the letter of the law to get out of doing something) has a very long history. CainFortea posted:My dude you're the one posting fan fiction about russia having a wide range of both de facto and de jure civil and human rights enshrined in law and constitution that the government is obligated to protect and respect which falls apart because Those things formally existing (and some of them even practically existing) in zero way whatsoever means that they are applied universally or even anywhere near consistently or justly, that would be insane to suggest and I've repeatedly emphasized that they're "they have tiers of people that are untouchable to their legal system and extremely touchable to their legal system (and other non-legal coercive systems)." The Russian power structure still very much self-conceptualizes as upholding order and civilization (particularly against decadent, degenerate foreign influences etc.), regardless of how patently absurd that looks from a foreign perspective. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Jun 7, 2023 |
# ? Jun 7, 2023 00:16 |
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Yeah it's this more or less, though it isn't entirely kayfabe either. Russia has been changing their laws throughout the course of the war because russian courts had a pesky habit of actually siding with people refusing unlawful orders or refusing to deploy. Frankly the tightening of laws since the start of this round of the war has been almost certainly the single biggest constriction of freedoms in post soviet Russia. Some quick skimming suggests there's an ongoing fights around conscientious objectors - the Russian constitution guarantees a right to Alternate Civil Service, but the relevant laws around mobilizations do not really allow for them in the wording. There's some court cases about it winding through the system, and on paper they have good cases, the text of the constitution seems straightforward ... but that doesn't mean the recruitment offices will listen to you trying to claim that right. e: Also, I bet having decent rights on paper is a useful way to do sporadic show trials against local politicians and CEOs you want to get rid of anyway while scoring some "look, we care about the people" points. That may be more of a China things, though. Computer viking fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Jun 7, 2023 |
# ? Jun 7, 2023 00:26 |
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Yeah, I don't disagree with either of those takes. Honestly just dropped the article in because it was the first time I'd heard of that theory. Not buying that story though till something more solid than "trust us bro" drops.
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# ? Jun 7, 2023 01:21 |
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Tuna-Fish posted:The trial would of course be a show trial, but the fact that there was a trial mattered deeply to the people holding the trials, even if the difference might seem academic to us. im not a failed state! im not a failed state! i yell as my jurisprudence increasingly resembles the plot of Гараж
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# ? Jun 7, 2023 04:32 |
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A.o.D. posted:A perfect example of Russian jurisprudence calvinball: Conscripts cannot be deployed outside of Russia, so in order to get around that Russia annexes regions they don't fully control, and in one case they don't even control the capital of. The law still remains, but the practice has rendered the right meaningless, as conscripts can now be deployed to invade a sovereign nation. While I do not doubt that there are or have been conscripts in the occupied/annexed regions, has there been any reliable reporting on numbers there? Anecdottaly, I have seen a lot of videos of Russians being captured and I do not recall seeing many of them being of conscript age. It is also possible the Russian command have not thrown the lot of them to the front line and instead they are more regulated for rear echelon duties.
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# ? Jun 7, 2023 06:39 |
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shame on an IGA posted:I think the point being made was that while Russian domestic law is largely kayfabe, kayfabe itself has rules and forms that must be respected Baw God that’s Beria’s music!
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# ? Jun 7, 2023 09:48 |
Rule of law lasts as long as the 9mm makarov remains out of your detestable skull.
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# ? Jun 7, 2023 09:55 |
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They mostly use the Grach these days, actually
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# ? Jun 7, 2023 10:41 |
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Herstory Begins Now posted:this was one of the single largest reservoirs in ukraine that has both major strategic and geopolitical significance, it's not like some podunk dam built in 1910 failing that no one has inspected in several years. I don't think it's impossible that they pushed it to a failure point (albeit there's no evidence that is actually what caused the failure), but it failing completely with no warning would require an unprecedented level of neglect and incompetence. Yes they'd been raising the water level as high as possible since ~march, but there's another major reason why they might've wanted to maximize the amount of water in the reservoir. There is a 99% chance that every dam(n) expert in Russia was sent to the front as infantry. Godholio fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Jun 7, 2023 |
# ? Jun 7, 2023 11:39 |
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quote:Ukrainian troops witnessed Russian soldiers being swept up in flood waters and fleeing the east bank of the Dnipro River after the collapse of the Nova Khakovka dam, an officer in Ukraine's armed forces said. Many Russian troops were killed or wounded in the chaos, according to the officer.
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# ? Jun 7, 2023 12:11 |
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Dick Ripple posted:While I do not doubt that there are or have been conscripts in the occupied/annexed regions, has there been any reliable reporting on numbers there? Anecdottaly, I have seen a lot of videos of Russians being captured and I do not recall seeing many of them being of conscript age. It is also possible the Russian command have not thrown the lot of them to the front line and instead they are more regulated for rear echelon duties. You haven't seen guys 18-27 (older for prior military mobilized)? Or do you think there is somehow a glut of contract soldiers still alive and doing all the fighting? I wasn't even aware that mobiks dying in Ukraine was up for debate lmao where do you think the guys mobilized in September 2022 went?? Victis fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Jun 7, 2023 |
# ? Jun 7, 2023 17:12 |
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That's grim even by Russian standards. I'd rather catch a bullet and bleed out than drown, even more so if it was my own idiotic side that led to my drowning.
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# ? Jun 7, 2023 17:15 |
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Victis posted:You haven't seen guys 18-27 (older for prior military mobilized)? Or do you think there is somehow a glut of contract soldiers still alive and doing all the fighting? I wasn't even aware that mobiks dying in Ukraine was up for debate So there is a distinction between people drafted for their mandatory [1] service upon turning 18ish and people drafted for the war; the government trying to keep the first group uninvolved. [1] for those who can't afford a bribe.
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# ? Jun 7, 2023 17:21 |
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OddObserver posted:So there is a distinction between people drafted for their mandatory [1] service upon turning 18ish and people drafted for the war; the government trying to keep the first group uninvolved. The biannual fall draft would have been October 1, the mobilization September 21. I really doubt there was much of a distinction at the time
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# ? Jun 7, 2023 17:36 |
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The "mobiks" are almost entirely veterans who were recalled to active duty and tossed directly into the jaws of the HIMARS. The semi-annual conscription is a highly regulated affair, and using those recruits on the frontlines would effectively require Putin to admit there's a war on. This is one of the sources of a major controversy surrounding the sinking of the Moskva: there were conscripts onboard, and many did die. And the Russian MoD tried bribing and coercing relatives into staying quiet about it. e: FWIW, I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere yet that Russia is sending conscripts to the frontlines in any significant numbers. ISW occasionally reports on instances where this happens, but it appears to be relatively rare. Of course, a lot of them have reported being forced into signing up as contract soldiers when their term of service ends, so it's kind of the same effect in the end. psydude fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Jun 7, 2023 |
# ? Jun 7, 2023 18:31 |
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psydude posted:The "mobiks" are almost entirely veterans who were recalled to active duty and tossed directly into the jaws of the HIMARS. The semi-annual conscription is a highly regulated affair, and using those recruits on the frontlines would effectively require Putin to admit there's a war on. This is one of the sources of a major controversy surrounding the sinking of the Moskva: there were conscripts onboard, and many did die. And the Russian MoD tried bribing and coercing relatives into staying quiet about it. The right exists on paper, but as an actual respected protection it's pretty tenuous and will only get weaker as this war progresses.
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# ? Jun 7, 2023 19:02 |
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psydude posted:The "mobiks" are almost entirely veterans who were recalled to active duty and tossed directly into the jaws of the HIMARS. The semi-annual conscription is a highly regulated affair, and using those recruits on the frontlines would effectively require Putin to admit there's a war on. This is one of the sources of a major controversy surrounding the sinking of the Moskva: there were conscripts onboard, and many did die. And the Russian MoD tried bribing and coercing relatives into staying quiet about it. "Veteran" is pulling a lot of weight for a "guy who painted grass and spent fridays drinking antifreeze for a year in between slave labor on general's dacha" 10-15 years ago. Compared to a generic Ukrainian mobilized who very likely served in the ATO (Donbass conflict zone) where hundreds of thousands had a rotation during their mandatory draft conscription for 8 years. fatherboxx fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Jun 7, 2023 |
# ? Jun 7, 2023 20:25 |
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# ? Jun 6, 2024 08:35 |
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fatherboxx posted:"Veteran" is pulling a lot of weight for a "guy who painted grass and spent fridays drinking antifreeze for a year in between slave labor on general's dacha" 10-15 years ago. Compared to a generic Ukrainian mobilized who very likely served in the ATO (Donbass conflict zone) where hundreds of thousands had a rotation during their mandatory draft conscription for 8 years. I think we all know plenty of similar folks in the US who show up at Texas Roadhouse every November 11th demanding their free chicken critters.
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# ? Jun 7, 2023 20:45 |