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Eh, taking a card from my library wouldn't upset me. Now taking a land I already had in play, that would be an "I'm targeting you now" play.
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Jun 21, 2023 18:14
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Yeah I just know the people I play with. Milling can make them focus on people. And then when they keep a 1 land hand and I start taking the ones “they would have drawn”, there will definitely be “revenge” spells thrown my way.
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Jun 21, 2023 18:30
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Nehru the Damaja posted:There's a tension for building Lord of the Nazgul in that running the actual Nazgul would be helpful but that's 9 slots in a deck that wants to be slinging spells. Mutavault as a backup wraith. Black Market Connections and Maskwood Nexus for changeling tokens. Maskwood has the advantage of making your creatures wraiths. Tbh I would go full Talrand and spellsling aggressively and consider the 9/9 a nice bonus for a job well done, but you do you.
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Jun 21, 2023 18:32
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checkplease posted:New Lotr stuff: Galadriel of lothlorien seems like it can generate some value + landfall triggers. Not sure best way to win in u/g though. Craterhoof? I think that the alt Commander pairing of Merry and Pippin do better on the food stuffs. I am curious about where that precon's Bilbo would fit in another Lifegain Abzan deck.
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Jun 21, 2023 18:44
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Yeah I guess pippin has a built in food overrun. Sam generates food automatically and has some shenanigans with ginger brute. Frodo doesn’t really have much going on… With Bilbo I assume you basically have to go infinite life combo?
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Jun 21, 2023 19:15
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Randalor posted:If I wanted to make a budget Tom Bombadil deck, what would an actual Wincon be for Sagas? Have a power conduit out when Kiora Bests the Sea God hits the field and just stall while making an army of 8/8s? Repeatedly nuke everyone's landbase with Fall of the Thran until people give up? Opalesence /star field of nyx works you can also use replenish and it’s clones
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Jun 21, 2023 19:19
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gonna poo poo if they ban bowmasters over the same 3-4 wincons everyone uses in high level edh.
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Jun 21, 2023 21:23
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Randalor posted:If I wanted to make a budget Tom Bombadil deck, what would an actual Wincon be for Sagas? Ob/All Will Be One. You'll have enough ways to tutor them, probably.
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Jun 21, 2023 21:29
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checkplease posted:New Lotr stuff: Galadriel of lothlorien seems like it can generate some value + landfall triggers. Not sure best way to win in u/g though. Craterhoof? Idk about finishing, because it's only going to be viable at mid-tier tables, and you could probably just win with baloths at that rate, but i think the most important takeaway from Galadriel is that it's not worth jamming your deck with 1-off scry. If you aren't using a repeatable free trigger (Elrond, Jace's Sanctum, Retreat to Coralhelm), then you are just playing bad cards for a very mid effect. And each of those cards you are jamming leaves you less space for payoff or interaction.
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Jun 21, 2023 21:41
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Dizz posted:gonna poo poo if they ban bowmasters over the same 3-4 wincons everyone uses in high level edh. What does CEDH look like of they ban all alt wincons, just have to get everyone to 0 or mill them?
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Jun 21, 2023 22:34
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disaster pastor posted:Ob/All Will Be One. You'll have enough ways to tutor them, probably. Yeah, All Will Be One seems fun in a sagas deck regardless, so throwing in Ob for the 2 card combo feels almost automatic. Though if your playgroup doesn’t love 2 card combos you could sub out Ob Nix for something else. I might also suggest Historian’s Boon and Sigil of the Empty Throne to make a bunch of angels, and then include a Firja’s Retribution to give them all double strike on the third chapter. That seems like the other possible wincon.
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Jun 21, 2023 22:37
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TotalHell posted:Sigil of the Empty Throne sigil is cast, not constellation, so it won't actually proc off tom's sagascade 
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Jun 21, 2023 23:37
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Khanstant posted:What does CEDH look like of they ban all alt wincons, just have to get everyone to 0 or mill them? Yeah there are some pretty efficient/scary beatdowns you can do in cedh, which is kinda surprising for the combo format.
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Jun 21, 2023 23:58
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Ban all cards that say "you win the game" and then ban all players who take winning actions and then...
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Jun 22, 2023 00:06
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Papa Was A Video Toaster posted:Ban all cards that say "you win the game" and then ban all players who take winning actions and then... 
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Jun 22, 2023 00:16
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checkplease posted:With Bilbo I assume you basically have to go infinite life combo? Possibly yeah, I would think something involving utilizing a lot of the little lifegain triggers that white and green have and using like Alhamaret's Archive.
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Jun 22, 2023 00:21
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Papa Was A Video Toaster posted:Ban all cards that say "you win the game" and then ban all players who take winning actions and then... Settle down, Sheldon. E: Still laugh every time I remember he went on Shuffle Up and Play and someone straight up told him that attacking is good for the game. Batterypowered7 fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Jun 22, 2023 |
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Jun 22, 2023 00:22
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Mix. posted:sigil is cast, not constellation, so it won't actually proc off tom's sagascade If you build the deck saga/enchantment heavy, you’ll be casting a lot of enchantments anyway. Like, you should still play a bunch of cast Enchantresses in this deck; Tom’s Saga ability is sort of a bonus.
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Jun 22, 2023 02:16
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"No, no, we won't ban problem cards, we'll just make cards to counter the problem cards!"
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Jun 22, 2023 03:00
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Nehru the Damaja posted:There's a tension for building Lord of the Nazgul in that running the actual Nazgul would be helpful but that's 9 slots in a deck that wants to be slinging spells. Maybe run some various clones/shapeshifters to fill out the ranks. Spark Double and Irenicus's Vile Duplication can make you nonlegendary copies of your Commander for additional spellslinger triggers.
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Jun 22, 2023 03:02
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Fajita Queen posted:Yeah there are some pretty efficient/scary beatdowns you can do in cedh, which is kinda surprising for the combo format. If I see Winota drop another Blade Historian I will turn inside-out.
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Jun 22, 2023 03:38
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Khanstant posted:What does CEDH look like of they ban all alt wincons, just have to get everyone to 0 or mill them? The only alt wincon that really sees much play is Thassa's Oracle; far more common to assemble an infinite combo and win that way. If you ban the Grixis shell of Dockside, Underworld Breach, Thassa's Oracle, Ad Naus, Tainted Pact, and Demonic Consultation, you probably end up closing out games with slightly more fragile 2 card combos like Prof. Onyx/Chain of Smog, Worldgorger Loops, or Heliod/Ballista, and infinite mana outlets that have to pause to cast Labman or Jace (i.e. Thrasios) before winning or have a built in use for the mana (Kennrith, Kinnan). Blue Farm probably moves down a good ways, while Najeela and Tivit move up into its place. Malcom probably stays a winning partner, also. Winota is sad to lose Dockside, but otherwise not very effected. That said, since we just saw Dockside reprinted in Double Masters, and we'll likely see it in Commander Masters, there's a snowball's chance in hell it catches a ban. Given Sheldon's level of oppositional defiance disorder when it comes to even considering balancing the format for cEDH playstyles (i.e. the level of whining that came along with the Flash ban), I'm sure we'd see Bowmasters or Bats banned before Dockside
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Jun 22, 2023 20:00
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Thanks for the rundown! I wasn't sure if the thoracle combo and friends were some big floodgate holding back a bunch of potential deck diversity or something like that.
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Jun 22, 2023 20:44
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Legalize Flash Hulk
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Jun 23, 2023 02:14
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Khanstant posted:Thanks for the rundown! I wasn't sure if the thoracle combo and friends were some big floodgate holding back a bunch of potential deck diversity or something like that. They definitely are. Every other combo is harder to assemble, more interactable, or costs more mana. Half the thoracle combo is tutors, the other half gives access color identity wise to all the free counterspells. There are najeela shells that run thoracle just because.
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Jun 23, 2023 06:55
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I think, honestly, you could get away with banning Oracle, Breach, and Dockside. Would it fix everything? No. Would it fix a lot of things? Yes. Dockside may be the mozt degenerate of the bunch, but making Thoracle decks need 1more mana and 1 more draw (and have slightly less protection, in the case of Revival), puts the whole format on a more reasonable footing. I was looking at the top 20 decks on edhtop16 and it seemed like, at this point there were more Dockside combo decks than Thoracle decks. People just figuring out that you can Emiel/Kitten Dockside and go nuts. For good measure, I'd also hit Timetwister because it's $3000 and gives some of the best decks a level of resilience they don't deserve.
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Jun 23, 2023 07:28
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Is there anything approaching a consensus on what the strongest decks have been outside the cedh sphere? Like at that point it becomes a lot of subjective stuff I guess, but let's just say decks without expensive fast mana and singleminded pursuit of combo wins.
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Jun 23, 2023 17:19
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Is there anything approaching a consensus on what the strongest decks have been outside the cedh sphere? Like at that point it becomes a lot of subjective stuff I guess, but let's just say decks without expensive fast mana and singleminded pursuit of combo wins. Sorry, you want them without both fast mana and combo wins, or without fast mana but combo wins?
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Jun 23, 2023 17:29
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Without both. Not even necessarily no combo wins, but let's say not leaning on public enemies like Dockside and Thoracle.
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Jun 23, 2023 17:32
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Without both. Not even necessarily no combo wins, but let's say not leaning on public enemies like Dockside and Thoracle. Honestly this is kind of a meaningless question. You’re making some arbitrary distinction between cEDH and high and then saying what’s the best non cEDH deck based on these arbitrary criteria. Is taking turns combo if it’s not infinite? Is extra combats? If so it’s probably in one of those 2 concepts.
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Jun 23, 2023 17:40
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What is no fast mana like having bad lands because you won't proxy? No deck should languish without true duals.
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Jun 23, 2023 17:46
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Khanstant posted:What is no fast mana like having bad lands because you won't proxy? No deck should languish without true duals. No mana positive ramp: Sol Ring, Crypt, Vault, Jeweled Lotus, Ancient Tomb, etc
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Jun 23, 2023 17:57
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pseudanonymous posted:Honestly this is kind of a meaningless question. You’re making some arbitrary distinction between cEDH and high and then saying what’s the best non cEDH deck based on these arbitrary criteria. I agree that the distinction is really subjective and so we're not really getting any kind of hard, actionable results here. But I don't think the question is "meaningless." We all have some kind of idea of what the format plays like at non-CEDH settings, and sure that's going to vary from person to person. But who cares? I just want to know what people think does exceptionally well outside that setting. If your standards are different than mine, that's fine. I'm not asking for science. Just poo poo to talk about.
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Jun 23, 2023 18:09
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Best deck (without access to Thoracle, Breach, Dockside, or fast mana) is probably something with the fewest moving pieces, one of them in the command zone, and the other easily searchable in the commander's colors. The less mana needed to go off in a single turn the better. Kinnan probably gets better in a field like that.
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Jun 23, 2023 18:22
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I recently posted a budget Birgi list and you could simply drop Sol Ring and Breach and it would be 95% effective, so there's not really any major thought exercise here. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/3HgUk7CuTkCi-kSkQ4qu0Q
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Jun 23, 2023 19:01
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Nehru the Damaja posted:I agree that the distinction is really subjective and so we're not really getting any kind of hard, actionable results here. But I don't think the question is "meaningless." We all have some kind of idea of what the format plays like at non-CEDH settings, and sure that's going to vary from person to person. But who cares? I just want to know what people think does exceptionally well outside that setting. If your standards are different than mine, that's fine. I'm not asking for science. Just poo poo to talk about. I feel like "fast mana" is a bit too vague to really dive into your question Like, if you could be a little more specific with that it'd make it a better conversation. Like, do you count bond lands as fast? Pain lands? Is Urborg a fast land? Outside of the man's I think I'd agree with Batterypowered7, multiple combats/turns is just insanely powerful. Although one time I had to burn an extra turn just to fuckin scramble to make up for my missed land drops previously, so who's to say... 
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Jun 23, 2023 19:05
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As a more complete analysis, I pulled up the lists for the top 20 decks on edhtop16 (although the winrate starts to fall off badly after the top 12 or so): 1 Tana, the Bloodsower / Tymna the Weaver - WBRG - Docksideͤ 2 Sisay, Weatherlight Captain - WUBRG - Docksideͤ 3 Kraum, Ludevic's Opus / Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools - UBR - Docksideͩ/Thoracle/Breach 4 Tivit, Seller of Secrets - WUB - Thoracle 5 Tayam, Luminous Enigma - WBG - ??? 6 Rograkh, Son of Rohgahh / Silas Renn, Seeker Adept - UBR - Dockside/Thoracle/Breach 7 Dargo, the Shipwrecker / Thrasios, Triton Hero - URG - Docksideͩ/Breach 8 Najeela, the Blade-Blossom 26 116 22.41% - WUBRG - Dockside/Thoracle/Breach 9 Malcolm, Keen-Eyed Navigator / Tana, the Bloodsower - URG - Dockside 10 Niv-Mizzet, Parun - UR - Dockside 11 Atraxa, Grand Unifier - WUBG - Thoracle 12 Kraum, Ludevic's Opus / Tymna the Weaver - WUBR - Dockside/Thoracle/Breach 13 Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder / Thrasios, Triton Hero - WURG - Dockside 14 Kenrith, the Returned King - WUBRG - Docksideͩͤ/Thoracle/Breach 15 Rocco, Cabaretti Caterer - WRG - Docksideͤ 16 Jeska, Thrice Reborn / Tymna the Weaver - WBR - Dockside/Breach 17 Inalla, Archmage Ritualist - UBR - Dockside/Thoracle/Breach 18 Malcolm, Keen-Eyed Navigator / Tymna the Weaver - WUB - Thoracle 19 Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy - UG - ??? 20 Krark, the Thumbless / Sakashima of a Thousand Faces - UR - Dockside/Breach The Docksides marked with ͩ or ͤ are for comboing with Displacer Kitten or Emriel, respectively, which is very much The Thing You Do in those colors. The ubiquity and the fact that it's generally no longer about playing a "fair" Dockside, and more about keeping your opponent off one and recurring yours with Kitten/Emriel/Breach/Felidar/Saheeli/Aminatou/etc. makes this the same situation that PrimeTime was in, except Dockside is an actual good card and actually approaching $100, so Sheldon can gently caress right off with his whataboutism, because it's literally everywhere and breaking the format. If you ban Dockside/Breach/Thoracle, which ARE NOT used fairly in casual games at any point, then you are making the whole of the format better, as clearly demonstrated above. If Kinnan/Tayam start dominating because there's no competition, then you deal with those 2 decks then, but ffs why wouldn't you deal with the 3 major elephants in the room, right now, or better yet, a year ago when this was all extremely obvious?
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Jun 23, 2023 19:52
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Feel like Winota with no fast mana would still be insanely strong
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Jun 23, 2023 19:56
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Toshimo posted:5 Tayam, Luminous Enigma - WBG - ??? It's a Devoted Druid/graveyard recursion deck that can also win with Chain of Smog/Witherbloom Apprentice or Squirrelcraft. Apparently it's pretty consistent. The combo's got a lot of pieces and that's part of why it does well, because it's hard to tell what the gently caress it's doing a lot of the time. quote:20 Krark, the Thumbless / Sakashima of a Thousand Faces - UR - Dockside/Breach Krark'd be still a fine deck if you took Dockside and Breach out tbh. A lot of the wins come from making a ton of clones and winning because your chances of fizzling become exponentially smaller with each clone. Breach is just a backup plan. I don't think it's even in Ken's primer right now. EDIT: Looks like he put it back in. For a while he was off it. Framboise fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Jun 23, 2023 |
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Jun 23, 2023 20:00
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ShallNoiseUpon posted:Feel like Winota with no fast mana would still be insanely strong I feel like it'd be a lot slower and have a much harder time rebounding after being blown out, but still probably quite (maybe too) good for high power.
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Jun 23, 2023 20:01
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