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PoontifexMacksimus posted:Since this thread has been far more active than I expected, I'm not sure if everyone had already seen this video from a couple of days ago: Interesting, but dang does it make for a real bleak future. Does give a lot of interesting context to the stuff of the game.
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Jun 28, 2023 03:30
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Wafflecopper posted:A trap in terms of getting loads of huge mostly irrelevant lore dumps on your first play through, not in terms of mechanical power. Disco isn’t really about the latter anyway, and the former can be off putting for a new player who’s not yet invested in the setting I was brainy cop my first playthrough, and really loved all of the worldbuilding details. It really added my to my impression that this was a fully-conceived world, which kept me playing. The fact that it turned out to be a really useful skill was just a bonus, I'd been pumping it for RP reasons anyways. Regardless, the mechanical stuff means it's a fine skill to invest in, even if you just skip the lore stuff. Having a few more points to put into, say, Hand/Eye or Authority is never bad.
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Jun 28, 2023 04:16
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You know who had excellent hand/eye coordination and was a real authority in the ring?
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Jun 28, 2023 10:07
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dervival posted:shame there's no fan% speedrun joke category https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZZ0dJFFT5s current world record is just under 14s
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Jun 28, 2023 12:27
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sebzilla posted:You should be more like Contact Mike #bemoremike There actually was an athlete named Mike getting some extra inspirational fame around the time that the game originally released. I always found that to be extra funny.
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Jun 28, 2023 13:25
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Oxyclean posted:Interesting, but dang does it make for a real bleak future. Does give a lot of interesting context to the stuff of the game. It gets mentioned all the time (in the game and the book), but I'm always kinda floored by how the Pale covers something like 70-80% of the whole globe. Like wtf!? No wonder the world of Disco Elysium is so bleak and everyone is KooKoo bananas. No matter where you go you're stuck staring at this wall of oblivion. It's also a little weird that the Pale just sorta....stops at the atmosphere. Like the book outright states it by bringing up the existence of Satellites and at least some kind of space exploration (even if it is just near earth rocket launches), but wtf? I wonder what it looks like from above.
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Jun 28, 2023 14:28
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Crain posted:wtf? I wonder what it looks like from above. Well, quote:
additionally, 
armpit_enjoyer fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Jun 28, 2023 |
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Jun 28, 2023 14:57
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it's interesting that joyce says that, because the book explicitly mentions orbital satellites, even in the part set in '52:Sacred and Terrible Air posted:The orange flicker of the sun, the sound of water, and the now, that does use the word "dream," but it's more explicit elsewhere, for example in a later passage set in '72: Sacred and Terrible Air posted:From orbit, the communication satellite “Iikon” can see how
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Jun 28, 2023 16:34
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World War Mammories posted:it's interesting that joyce says that, because the book explicitly mentions orbital satellites, even in the part set in '52: Yeah this is what I remember specifically. It has to just come down to the world of DE being far less fleshed out in areas back when Kurvitz was writing the book vs what the writers and he developed over the course of making DE. The pale being a, seemingly, terrestrial phenomena is interesting. If only for the possibility that, if the world of DE vaguely follows the technological progress of our own with some variation of more advanced and less advanced, A moon mission could be on the horizon. What if the Pale follows the astronauts to the moon? Either while they are there, or appears after they leave. It would just cement that the Pale isn't a component of the planet of DE but an aspect of humans specifically.
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Jun 28, 2023 16:51
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Crain posted:Yeah this is what I remember specifically. It has to just come down to the world of DE being far less fleshed out in areas back when Kurvitz was writing the book vs what the writers and he developed over the course of making DE. This is canon, isn't it?
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Jun 28, 2023 16:57
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Kinda yeah. I got the impression that the Pale is a byproduct of humans, a kind of ontological pollution that builds up over time through the growth and decay of thoughts, ideas, histories, and beliefs. It's also a metaphor for climate change, in that only humans do it, and it seems poised to wipe out human civilization, while all the other organisms of the world continue to change and adapt to their shifting environment just as they always have
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Jun 28, 2023 17:05
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The video linked up a page or so that dives into stuff from the book (and some other stuff released by ZA/UM) suggests that the pale is specifically a biproduct of pulling information from the future - the short version is you can't take something from nothing, so nothingness appears to balance out the equation. So basically all these nations are in an information arms race of pulling information from the future, even if they realize that they're causing the pale. e: The video also reminded me of the wild quote from the Pale Driver about the Pale Superdeep, "where every step you take is one step further from home, no matter the direction."" - not really relevant to the convo, but I just love that quote/the picture it paints. Oxyclean fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Jun 28, 2023 |
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Jun 28, 2023 17:17
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Crain posted:Yeah this is what I remember specifically. It has to just come down to the world of DE being far less fleshed out in areas back when Kurvitz was writing the book vs what the writers and he developed over the course of making DE. this is pretty much all speculation but I guess I'll spoil it anyway. it does make sense that the pale roughly follows the surface of the planet if it's a byproduct of the human mind, since that's where people are. and I think that it's a byproduct of humanity is pretty canon. though in both the game and the book the pale is described as having "arcs," in the game explicitly above isolas and presumably the same in the book. in addition, cop of the apocalypse describes the "*shape*" of the end of the world as "...[l]ike a cavity, a pit opening up in your stomach. A throat into which the world will vanish." because I am insane I choose to interpret this as pale spreading underground like it arcs through the atmosphere, eventually eating its way up from below, opening great yawning abysses of pale beneath the surface of the world. but this is not how the spreading-pale apocalypse occurs in the book, and besides motorway south describes superdeep pale as "where only one type of motion is possible. The motion of a human throat, swallowing" so I'm probably wrong. an interesting thought about pale following astronauts as well. the game implies that dolores dei might not have been human, what with forgetting to breathe for up to 10 minutes, burning like a furnace, etc; probably this is meant to imply something about magpies. but I have wondered if she might be an agent of the rest of the universe sent to cauterize the wound. the phasmid says that "[t]he vacuum of cosmos and the stars burning in it are afraid of you," which is probably just flowery rhetoric, but still. further, noid expands on the idea that encyclopedia introduces by saying that "[h]umanism was invented to mass produce billions of humans" and that "[Dei's] legacy... [was] a strategy for some kind of victory. Against a long-dead opponent." if humans produce pale, then more humans produce more pale... which eventually kills them before they can escape the planet and spread it throughout the universe. was that what dei intended to do? idle speculation, of course. and now we'll probably never get more stories in the setting, at least not anything made by kurvitz &co. but that's the most disco way things could have possibly gone.
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Jun 28, 2023 17:21
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sebzilla posted:This is canon, isn't it? It is yes, but I'm not sure if the people of DE outside of Harry/Kim or the Self Chiller and a few others are explicitly aware of that. The average person in that world is seemingly written to align with how the general public of our world view climate change. Most will agree that humans might or probably have something to do with it, but many will still say it's not something humans DID. Because as far as people seem aware, the Pale has always been a thing in the DE world, even going back far into their antiquity. Like the old myths that Khan talks about with explorers plunging into the void to find immortality via a mythical peach or ancient tribes plunging into the void and powering through to find new lands. So it would make sense for there to be this dichotomy where, re: the pale, people seem to think that humans are contributing to it, but the pale might be something like an attribute of the world we're simply agitating. Since from their perspective it's always been there (even though the Phasmid proves this wrong due to being old enough to have seen humans arrive). Like digging at a natural dam causing a flood vs building a dam, then breaking it to create a flood that wouldn't have otherwise happened. Via the game and Harry interacting with the Phasmid, we know it is something humans inherently DO TO the world as opposed to something that would happen naturally that we're just exacerbating. I'm not sure if I'm explaining that well or if it's a meaningless distinction. So in my hypothetical of the pale not being on the moon at all pre-humans, and then suddenly it is there after we visit and leave. Would completely remove the possible notion from the general populace that the Pale is anything but a human generated phenomena.
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Jun 28, 2023 17:30
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Whatever the book says (and I feel that the world and the game are enough of an evolutionary thing written by many authors, so the book doesn't necessarily have to be held as 100% canon), I don't really buy into the idea of the pale as a metaphor for climate change. Specifically the pale is also treated with an idea of hope in the story. As in the case of the phasmid, stuff like "after the pale, the world again", the whole insulindan miracle and of course the church/music quest. I see the Pale more as an embodiment of the idea of History. Which I think is a really strong thematic element in the game as a whole. It's not necessarily something that has to be evil, the world can drown in it, you can become trapped by it, but it can be a beneficial thing as well.
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Jun 28, 2023 17:33
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Just make sure a sequel again involves the characters learning of the pale, but maybe for different reasons or motivations.
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Jun 28, 2023 19:10
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The biggest issue with the climate change allegory is: if the Pale is produced by human history, how do we cut pale emissions? Stop history? If the Pale is specifically produced by "magpies" stealing from the future, not humanity in general the answer is to just regulate magpies and punish ideas outside of their time, right? Nice simple material solution. Here's the issue with that solution: both stopping history and punishing revolutionary ideas is the raison d'etre of the Moralintern. If the Pale is climate change, the Moralintern are the environmentalists. On the other hand, the book links the Pale much more explicitly with nihilism, which doesn't quite line up with any hopeful interpretation. I know I made a post recently about the oxygen holocaust parallel being a backhanded optimism about the Pale, but that interpretation feels much weaker after having read the book. Humans (and everything we understand) are the anaerobic microbes. Whatever else there is, won't be us. There's also a line in the game I forgot about there not being trees that eat Pale. An interesting point that lore video brought up was that there is another answer to the Pale: Perikarnasian Love. If Hardcore sincere feelings can hold off the pale, then it is not simply an allegory for material carbon emissions, it evokes the resigned hopelessness that prevents people from fixing an obvious material problem. The Pale isn't climate change, it is our inability to avert climate change. It is nihilism. That is why revolutionary communism is also theorized to be effective against the Pale. And maybe that is why the Moralintern strategy of managing the material conditions around the pale, which seems logical, is ultimately ineffective in the face of nihilism. The Dolorian/Enlightenment Moralists can understand the mechanisms of the pale in their minute mechanical detail, and propose rational technocratic solutions, but unless they address the deeper meaning all they are doing is laying the groundwork for more nihilism, more Pale. My biggest question from the book is (geopolitical developments of '72 from the book) what the gently caress was happening in Mesque? And the Mundi isola in general. There's an innocence of Nihilism that gains influence in Mesque. Mesque nukes Revachol and attacks Graad and Graad's vassal-allies in Katla, using(?) the Pale to eventually destroy the whole Isola. But what of the rest of the Moralintern? Oranje, Messina, Sur-la-Clef? They seemed more important parts of the coalition in the game, but the book barely mentions them, and implies that Graad is alone against the world, while only mentioning Mesque as an opponent. Though I guess I should say that's my biggest question besides the whole way it ends. Also, an unrelated and very minor issue I've always had: fan maps of the world of Elysium have all the isololas as separate continents or islands surrounded by pale. That always bothered me. Why would the pale stick to oceans? Indeed, in the book there are many places where the land ends in Pale. And in fact Katla and Graad are explicitly on the same landmass, separated by the Pale. I wouldn't be surprised if Mundi and Samara were on the same landmass too, but that's just speculation.
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Jun 28, 2023 20:11
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Regulating magpies seems like an "easier said then done" kind of thing, because almost certainly many would not want to risk being at disadvantage if other nations or their rival corporations made use of magpies secretly to gain advantages. Eiba posted:Also, an unrelated and very minor issue I've always had: fan maps of the world of Elysium have all the isololas as separate continents or islands surrounded by pale. That always bothered me. Why would the pale stick to oceans? Indeed, in the book there are many places where the land ends in Pale. And in fact Katla and Graad are explicitly on the same landmass, separated by the Pale. I wouldn't be surprised if Mundi and Samara were on the same landmass too, but that's just speculation. It might just be the stuff about the innocence who sent ships off into the pale, leading to the discovery of the other isolas - it paints a particular picture. My personal headcanon would be that pale probably starts off far away from humanity, and only starts to encroach over time as it eats up the world / takes up increasing amounts of space. Though, that doesn't really square with the 2mm pale hole in the church, and I want to say, the fact that the revacholian isola was uninhabited when it was first found? (Am I remembering that correctly)
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Jun 28, 2023 20:26
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Also it might just include a manifestation of mortality
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Jun 28, 2023 20:31
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The pale is the horror of regret and despair.
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Jun 28, 2023 20:53
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Oxyclean posted:Regulating magpies seems like an "easier said then done" kind of thing, because almost certainly many would not want to risk being at disadvantage if other nations or their rival corporations made use of magpies secretly to gain advantages. There's definitely an ocean between the Insulindian Isola and the Mundi Isola- but there were people living there before Dolores Dei kicked off the age of interisolary travel. Or at least there were on the Semenine islands in the same Isola. Measurehead is one of them. In the book it's mentioned that the Katla Isola was settled by sled dog drivers braving the pale. Of course this fact was explained to us by a fascist pedophile extoling the superiority of his race, but it suggests interisolary travel was considered possible before Dolores Dei's time.
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Jun 28, 2023 21:12
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I think about the book girl and the raver girl sometimes. Abuse. Same age group, different results . CUNO is high off speed but shouldn't Cunoesse be cold? I think I'm on some sort of right track.
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Jun 28, 2023 21:19
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Eiba posted:My biggest question from the book is (geopolitical developments of '72 from the book) what the gently caress was happening in Mesque? And the Mundi isola in general. There's an innocence of Nihilism that gains influence in Mesque. Mesque nukes Revachol and attacks Graad and Graad's vassal-allies in Katla, using(?) the Pale to eventually destroy the whole Isola. But what of the rest of the Moralintern? Oranje, Messina, Sur-la-Clef? They seemed more important parts of the coalition in the game, but the book barely mentions them, and implies that Graad is alone against the world, while only mentioning Mesque as an opponent. The Moralintern isn't doing much against Ambrosius, because they're the ones responsible for electing him. As Encyclopedia helpfully informs us, "the legal system of the Reál Belt is built from the ground up to accommodate innocentic rule, should it coincide with our time." It's not that Ambrosius gains influence in just in Mesque. He gains —or rather, is given— absolute power over the most powerful superpower in the world. Like he says in chapter 9: "But what I am doing is no longer a discussion; there are no arguments here, there is no need to choose sides. The time for doubt is over." "When you make a decision, either it was right, or it was mistaken. When I decide, my decision is what it is." As for Oranje and other nations on Mundi, Tereesz says in chapter 4, "You cannot imagine how bad things are now. This is the worst time to dig out any old stuff. There is no more support from Mundi, half of everything is in a state of war. Nobody knows if, for example, Oranjenrijk still exists. They’ll let me go if I start this poo poo…"
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Jun 28, 2023 22:04
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Seems those effortposts on pale and innocences I did a while back weren’t so batshit speculative lol One thing that would be nice to know about is what actually constitutes novelty and what is hegelian telepathic shenanigans. Anodic music and Encyclopedia coming up about Dolores Dei’s bodyguards saying “we were supposed to come up with this stuff ourselves” are some of the references that the game make about that distinction being a fact, that there is a New. Fun fact about the emphasis on electronic music that the game makes: some Marxists in Britain during the 90s did a whole thing about UK garage/jungle acting as a rebuke of hauntological loss. It was a true New thing, an important reminder that there is always the possibility of the revolutionary future
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Jun 28, 2023 22:41
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What if I told you MSI was the greatest band ever?
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Jun 28, 2023 22:43
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I don't feel like doing it, but what does Kim say at the end of the game if you properly solve the case as a boring cop copotype and don't opt in to any political stance?
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Jun 29, 2023 03:11
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Fabricated posted:I don't feel like doing it, but what does Kim say at the end of the game if you properly solve the case as a boring cop copotype and don't opt in to any political stance? Per fayde.co.uk: quote:KIM KITSURAGI - "Then there's the *boring cop* issue. Despite all the obvious and almost grotesque mannerisms and sartorial choices he still insists he isn't *characteristic* enough. It's..." The number of variables you must hit squarely false with not one point to get this dialogue is actually kinda impressive. NINE checks. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Jun 29, 2023 |
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Jun 29, 2023 04:20
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Yeah I was gonna say, you don't really need to opt into political stuff for Kim to comment on it, I think you just need enough points which feels really easy to hit.
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Jun 29, 2023 04:33
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If you somehow manage to get those comments from Kim, you should also get a secret ending where Harry is counted out of the revolution in the end, same as Trant  .
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Jun 29, 2023 10:30
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Kim's ending comments are really easy to provoke. I smoked a cig like... twice to bump my intellect up for checks and he noted my "incessant smoking". I smoked less than your one a day, Lieutenant!
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Jun 29, 2023 10:48
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CJacobs posted:Per fayde.co.uk:
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Jun 29, 2023 19:48
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Party Boat posted:Kim's ending comments are really easy to provoke. I smoked a cig like... twice to bump my intellect up for checks and he noted my "incessant smoking". I smoked less than your one a day, Lieutenant! Yeah the drink/drugs checks are binary iirc, you either quit or you don't.
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Jun 29, 2023 19:55
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People treat Harry with cockroach rules: If you saw him do it once, he's probably done it hundreds of times when you weren't looking
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Jun 29, 2023 20:04
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goblin week posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZZ0dJFFT5s What about longest? https://youtu.be/zIL_-nfjmoU This nice lady finished her 15th session and finally got to the end of the first day. She paused a lot to think about her choices or talk about the music or the writing or politics. It’s good but she plays very slowly
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Jun 29, 2023 20:36
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LaurenTheFlute is one of the sweetest people I've seen stream a video game, and I love a lot of her streams, but I had to stop watching her live because she can pontificate for ten minutes on a question that would be answered if she advanced the text box one more time.
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Jun 29, 2023 21:00
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My favorite playthrough has to be WoolieVersus'. You can tell they have a tremendous appreciation for the game's themes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tLp8KJWpuQ
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Jun 29, 2023 21:27
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Sardonik posted:My favorite playthrough has to be WoolieVersus'. You can tell they have a tremendous appreciation for the game's themes. Yeah their run was glorious. Truly they drank deeply from the well of Content.
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Jun 29, 2023 21:38
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YggiDee posted:LaurenTheFlute is one of the sweetest people I've seen stream a video game, and I love a lot of her streams, but I had to stop watching her live because she can pontificate for ten minutes on a question that would be answered if she advanced the text box one more time. Yeah I pretty much wait until she puts it up on YouTube so I can skip ahead because that girl can talk for a long time. She’ll probably finish it in a year The Woolie VS LP is great especially when the game told him to pick a side or gently caress off
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Jun 29, 2023 22:06
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I feel like a total moron because I'm on day 3 or 4 and I feel like I just get stuck on seemingly dead end white checks that don't go in my favor or help me solve anything. For example I still haven't cut down the dead body because it makes me puke. Also when I do level up, it feels like a fool's errand to figure out what to throw attribute points into. Toiling over a couple different options, I'll often go with the one that specifically DOESN'T help me on the next few chance rolls that come up. I don't usually play games in this genre, but it feels glaringly loving obvious how much I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing. Like I circle back to various people that seem to be stonewalling me, withholding information that would help finish an objective, and there's no new dialog options, even on highlighted "white checks" that I should be able to try again. It doesn't help that the map is so vague I can barely discern where those checks even are. Is it just a matter of leveling up certain traits by distracting myself with fairly innocuous bullshit until I feel bold enough to take another shot at >50% (and more than likely STILL fail)? And what's the rule with investing/divesting from various thoughts? I used a level point to forget Guillaume le Million in favor of Magnesium Based Lifeform because the stat boost looked marginally better, but it seems easy to get caught in a useless sisyphean cycle of embodying/forgetting thoughts when I should be leveling up skill attributes (I also have no idea what to do here).
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Jun 30, 2023 00:36
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MortLansky posted:I feel like a total moron because I'm on day 3 or 4 and I feel like I just get stuck on seemingly dead end white checks that don't go in my favor or help me solve anything. For example I still haven't cut down the dead body because it makes me puke. I might be misremembering but white checks reset when you put a point into the respective skill for the check, not just on level up. I'd also look at your gear, as you can use that to improve your odds at checks. Also drugs, if that's something you're into. Respecing thoughts is probably something you shouldn't do unless you really think you messed something up, imo.
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Jun 30, 2023 00:46
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