(Thread IKs:
fatherboxx)
|
They have Storm Shadow cruise missiles. No tomahawks yet though as far as I know.
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 21:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 08:18 |
|
|
BillsPhoenix posted:Thank you - I hadn't even really thought about the why. I think it's because I like to try and understand how things work. And I don't understand why so many people I know are so heavily emotionally invested in the Ukraine conflict. I mean, is it really that complex? Like I think part of the reason why so many people are "invested" in this war is because well it's pretty simple to understand. Russia wants to completely annex and consume Ukraine. That's it. It's like a war from the past when one country just wanted to own another country. It's pretty easy for people to understand. Sure there's all kinds of "events that lead up to" with this war but they really aren't hugely important unlike a lot of other wars.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 21:37
|
|
|
Libluini posted:Saporischschja One weird trick to upset both russian and Ukrainian speakers
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 21:38
|
|
|
I really want to visit Kiova one day 
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 21:39
|
|
|
WarpedLichen posted:Thanks, I hesitate to draw the conclusion that the mobilized are doing the majority of the fighting from those sources but I can see the chain of logic. I agree that may be an overreach. But it also is the likely scenario imo with the known facts available. As the RUSI guy suggests, even if it isn't all mobiks on the front, they are the ones likely given the dirtiest jobs like counter attacking to find out if there are Ukrainians to shoot at with artillery. Moon Slayer posted:I agree and actually think that this is the most likely outcome and that people should be mentally prepared for it. It's obvious some posters were expecting a Karkiv-like rout of several Russian positions (I'll admit that I was leaning in that direction as well, more fool me) within a week of the "start" of the counteroffensive. But that's the exception, not the rule for a war on this scale. I don't know if it is likely yet that this is the outcome. It could be conceivable that the front is like a hard crust and once they run out of infantry to man the line that things crumble rapidly. But there is an increase in giving reasons for justifying a potential defeat when you hear things like 'NATO troops get air cover for operations like this.'
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 21:56
|
|
|
funk_mata posted:OK nevermind, it looks like I/we can use "nitter" (the gently caress?) FOR NOW to view tweets without an account with a simple find/replace in the url: Does that second url work for anyone? It gives me a "tweet not found" error.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 22:15
|
|
|
EasilyConfused posted:Does that second url work for anyone? It gives me a "tweet not found" error. It doesn't work for me either, seems like Mr. Musk has been busy stopping data pillaging!!! 
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 22:17
|
|
|
Ukrainians are going through very densely mined areas , losing gear in a ratio closer to 1:1 instead of 3:1 and waiting for a strategic breakthrough to pull on mobile reserves, while the russian state is smelling defeat and turning into internal fighting. It's going pretty well, especially if the perpetually wrong realpolitiksers are now bringing up potential defeat of the Ukrainian offensive
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 22:17
|
|
|
jarlywarly posted:They have Storm Shadow cruise missiles. No tomahawks yet though as far as I know. They don't really have any platforms that could launch Tomahawks. Aircraft are out of the question since I doubt the US is going to turn a B-1/B-2/B-52 over to Ukraine, naval is out for obvious reasons, and the only ground launched versions were nuclear and withdrawn and dismantled in 1991.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 22:37
|
|
|
Somaen posted:Ukrainians are going through very densely mined areas , losing gear in a ratio closer to 1:1 instead of 3:1 and waiting for a strategic breakthrough to pull on mobile reserves, while the russian state is smelling defeat and turning into internal fighting. It's going pretty well, especially if the perpetually wrong realpolitiksers are now bringing up potential defeat of the Ukrainian offensive And its really stupid because being in offensive and losing only 1:1 to the defender would be considered everywhere else in the non-US armed forced world an successful offense. But if that collapse of Prigozhin-ran online troll farms is in any way accurate, these realpolitiksers and the other "Ukraine is losing"-idiots would be very muted in the social platforms they have been targeting for the last 15 years.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 22:44
|
|
|
WarpedLichen posted:Didn't see this posted here yet, but T-54 at the front - what a war. Imagine a Russian mechanic using their body as a shield as the artillery commanders walk toward that lone T-34, "NO You can't have her, she's the only left!"
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 22:53
|
|
|
Antigravitas posted:It sure is a mystery why people might react strongly to their neighbours being on the receiving end of a war of extermination. Gosh, utterly incomprehensible. On the surface I completely agree. Anyone in Eastern Europe should have this reaction as well. But for Americans - this isn't our neighbor. So is this a topic Americans must have a reaction to? And if so, to use a different example, why is the current genocidal killings in Ethiopia something that very few Americans have any thoughts on? It's a bit philosophical, so I don't think there's a "right" answer, though there's a few clear wrong ones (supporting Russia).
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 22:53
|
|
|
BillsPhoenix posted:On the surface I completely agree. Anyone in Eastern Europe should have this reaction as well. Russia's been in the news a lot for election interference in the US and generally as an antagonist/partner in world relations for the US ever since the collapse of the USSR, it's not surprising Americans would have strong opinions about something it's involved in.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 22:57
|
|
|
Having empathy and solidarity is good, because in different historical/future circumstances you might be in.tge same position of people on the receiving end of the injustice, and then there will be someone in the world to help you or at the very least to tell your story
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 23:05
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:Russia's been in the news a lot for election interference in the US and generally as an antagonist/partner in world relations for the US ever since the collapse of the USSR, it's not surprising Americans would have strong opinions about something it's involved in. I had been thinking too US centric, this makes a lot of sense and is very discrete. Somaen posted:Having empathy and solidarity is good, because in different historical/future circumstances you might be in.tge same position of people on the receiving end of the injustice, and then there will be someone in the world to help you or at the very least to tell your story Yes, I would prefer if people were more empathetic toward the situation in Ethipoia and for genuine good will to be a much bigger focus. BillsPhoenix fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Jun 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 23:08
|
|
|
BillsPhoenix posted:On the surface I completely agree. Anyone in Eastern Europe should have this reaction as well. Why do you think the Ethiopian civil war is getting less coverage and interest? Imo various factors: farther from 'western' nations rather than smack on the doorstep of Central Europe, less crucial economic involvement with the west, all the sides involved except maybe the federal one are smallish as opposed to a near-peer war between a major regional power and a medium regional power, absolutely no clear 'good guys', difficult to explain concisely, substantially less comprehensive internet presence, not quite so exciting technologically to milstuff rubberneckers, etc etc etc not a lot of Americans gave a lot of shits about the sri lankan civil war either, I assure you, and that one didn't have quite so many of those reasons quite as much hell, myanmar's Situation barely gets any discussion here and Amerigoons are much more plugged in to world events than just about any other group that isn't professionally involved in any given world event
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 23:08
|
|
|
BillsPhoenix posted:On the surface I completely agree. Anyone in Eastern Europe should have this reaction as well. These are some good Just Asking Questions, person who is clearly new and just found this website yesterday
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 23:09
|
|
|
HolHorsejob posted:These are some good Just Asking Questions, person who is clearly new and just found this website yesterday I thought it was obvious that I was an old account rereg like all the other recent redditor defectors.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 23:12
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:Russia's been in the news a lot for election interference in the US and generally as an antagonist/partner in world relations for the US ever since the collapse of the USSR, it's not surprising Americans would have strong opinions about something it's involved in. Adding to this, compared to other conflicts, there are very clear sides. Ukraine has done nothing to provoke the conflict other then having the misfortune of being next door a rump state run by a deluded dictator with dreams of empire. There is good evidence of mass war crimes against civilians by Russian forces, the reverse is not true. On a coldly practical level, there are decades of antagonism between Russia and the USA. The US isn't really sacrificing much to support Ukraine, it's mostly stockpiled systems that would be retired anyways, and it is steadily diminishing one of the US biggest geopolitical adversaries.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 23:13
|
|
|
BillsPhoenix posted:Yes, I would prefer if people were more empathetic toward the situation in Ethipoia and for genuine good will to be a much bigger focus. Agreed, are you going to start a thread about that so.we can be more informed and spread the news?
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 23:18
|
|
|
Somaen posted:Agreed, are you going to start a thread about that so.we can be more informed and spread the news? If nothing else I feel like asking about this in the thread dedicated to Sub-Saharan Africa might be a good start. Last post is in April, about time for a revival from someone who is genuinely interested in a conflict there. Possibly a good place to recruit interest in a new, more focused thread, too. Either way, better than in a thread specifically dedicated to the War in Ukraine (it's in the title).
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 23:22
|
|
|
BillsPhoenix posted:I thought it was obvious that I was an old account rereg like all the other recent redditor defectors. What happened to your old account?
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 23:23
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:If nothing else I feel like asking about this in the thread dedicated to Sub-Saharan Africa might be a good start. Last post is in April, about time for a revival from someone who is genuinely interested in a conflict there. Possibly a good place to recruit interest in a new, more focused thread, too. Either way, better than in a thread specifically dedicated to the War in Ukraine (it's in the title). yeah that's a good thread and goosing Ethiopia discussion there is fine by me
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 23:29
|
|
|
Google Jeb Bush posted:Why do you think the Ethiopian civil war is getting less coverage and interest? My original post was driven by my lack of understanding why people I know had this gap between the two. People caring so much about Ukraine but not Ethiopia, relatively recently after the US stepped in to curb genocide in Rwanda. My best guess was the economic case - Ukraine is generating defense money. But that felt incomplete and all these reasons didn't fit with most people I know who put very little thought into it. The multiple replies about Russia/Soviet legacies make so much more sense. Americans have a long anti Russia history, education, and experiences. In retrospect its obvious.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 23:57
|
|
|
Somaen posted:Having empathy and solidarity is good, because in different historical/future circumstances you might be in.tge same position of people on the receiving end of the injustice, and then there will be someone in the world to help you or at the very least to tell your story More directly, it's extremely important to disincentivize wars of territorial aggression, period. They're destabilizing. With Russia particularly, because Russia is a nuclear power, it makes sense to intervene *early* to stop even small scale brinksmanship, so that Russian leadership doesn't start thinking they can push further, push against an actual NATO boundary, etc. The potential consequences of unchecked Russian power are too severe to allow them to act with impunity. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Jul 1, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2023 23:58
|
|
|
BillsPhoenix posted:I had been thinking too US centric, this makes a lot of sense and is very discrete. Based on the time zone activity of this thread I think it is majority Europeans posting here, me included as it’s 1am here now. Posting is generally very slow overnight ime. The war in Ethiopia is also over and reconstruction is going on, Axum airport is about to reopen and tourists are already flying into Shire and visiting Axum by driving for an hour, so you’re about 6-12 months too late for that particular whataboutism. Maybe you meant to ask about Sudan? I also don’t think it’s unreasonable or unrealistic to ask people to care more about events happening that are closer to them either physically, economically, or temporally. E: I also sent more money toward reconstruction in Ethiopia than I did to Ukraine fwiw (€500 vs €0)
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2023 00:07
|
|
|
BillsPhoenix posted:My original post was driven by my lack of understanding why people I know had this gap between the two. There's also the fact that there's a lot of Ukranians in the US, and a surprising number of people can trace ancestry back to Ukraine (especially in cities like Chicago). Combine that with the fact that the US also has a lot of people from Poland (the most outside of Poland, in fact!) and of Polish descent (Poland's right next door to Ukraine, has quite the uh.. history with Russia/USSR, and has a vested, intense interest in what happens to Ukraine as they strongly suspect Poland would be next should Ukraine fall) and there's a fairly substantial subset of the population with skin in the game, as it were.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2023 00:09
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/NeilPHauer/status/1674744796395581442 Keeps happenning unfortunately
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2023 00:11
|
|
|
Oracle posted:There's also the fact that there's a lot of Ukranians in the US, and a surprising number of people can trace ancestry back to Ukraine (especially in cities like Chicago). Combine that with the fact that the US also has a lot of people from Poland (the most outside of Poland, in fact!) and of Polish descent (Poland's right next door to Ukraine, has quite the uh.. history with Russia/USSR, and has a vested, intense interest in what happens to Ukraine as they strongly suspect Poland would be next should Ukraine fall) and there's a fairly substantial subset of the population with skin in the game, as it were. I'm in Chicago and both the neighborhood I live in and where my work is are historically Polish neighborhoods. There are lots of Ukrainian flags and bumper stickers around.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2023 00:14
|
|
|
fatherboxx posted:https://twitter.com/NeilPHauer/status/1674744796395581442 Just a heads up Twitter seems to have cut everyone without an account off from clicking through on all tweets. So all threads and all cut off images cannot be viewed by folks on mobile that don’t use the Twitter app anymore.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2023 00:20
|
|
|
BillsPhoenix posted:My original post was driven by my lack of understanding why people I know had this gap between the two. Civil wars and internal conflicts like Ethiopia/Sri Lanka/Myanmar/Syria are also usually much more complex and require an understanding of often very complex local domestic politics and ethnic tensions. From a 5 or 10 minute wikipedia skim it can be pretty hard to figure out if the rebels or the government (or who even is government/rebels at the moment-IIRC in Ethiopia, the people who used to be the government are now the rebels) are the 'bad guy,' especially if both are killing alot of people. Whereas with Ukraine it is literally 'those people are bad because they crossed the border of this country with tanks without asking for permission and started shooting the people who lived there' Also, those other examples you gave are relatively small and not super important globally economically countries. OTOH, Russia is the largest country on earth, has the largest or second largest stockpile of nuclear weapons, supposedly had the second finest army in the world, is the most populous country in Europe and 9th most populous in the world, the 6th largest economy in the world, and a pretty important commodity exporter on the global market. Probably most Americans can find Russia on a map and know the capital is Moscow, that's almost certainly not the case with Ethiopia or Myanmar.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2023 00:25
|
|
|
Oracle posted:There's also the fact that there's a lot of Ukranians in the US, and a surprising number of people can trace ancestry back to Ukraine (especially in cities like Chicago). Combine that with the fact that the US also has a lot of people from Poland (the most outside of Poland, in fact!) and of Polish descent (Poland's right next door to Ukraine, has quite the uh.. history with Russia/USSR, and has a vested, intense interest in what happens to Ukraine as they strongly suspect Poland would be next should Ukraine fall) and there's a fairly substantial subset of the population with skin in the game, as it were. If you broaden it to former Soviet/Imperial Russian territories, you're going to find even more people whose knee-jerk response is to tell Russia to gently caress off. I may not know where my ancestors specifically came from, but I know they were there and why they fled.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2023 00:25
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:Just a heads up Twitter seems to have cut everyone without an account off from clicking through on all tweets. So all threads and all cut off images cannot be viewed by folks on mobile that don’t use the Twitter app anymore. What the gently caress?? Hope Elon decides to visit Bakhmut and see things for himself one day soon
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2023 00:30
|
|
|
Maera Sior posted:If you broaden it to former Soviet/Imperial Russian territories, you're going to find even more people whose knee-jerk response is to tell Russia to gently caress off. I may not know where my ancestors specifically came from, but I know they were there and why they fled. Part of my family is Estonian and fled the returning Soviets in WW2, this was a very good idea because one of them was a senior official in the collaboration government  but that sure wasn't the line among the Estonian community I knew here (UK), the degree of worry that the Soviet and later Russian government was spying on us* or going to try assassinating some of us was very real. * One time my dad bought a telescope from Russia by mail order and my grandmother was iron-clad certain that it had some kind of bug attached or built to spy on us lol (The same woman freaked out and wanted to hide my dad and me in the attic when the Gulf War started because she sincerely believed we would both be drafted. I was five)
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2023 00:37
|
|
|
e: nm
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2023 00:43
|
|
|
What happened with the Donetsk conscript troops? I know they were being grabbed en masse early in the war and kept getting chewed up, but I haven't really seen any photos of them recently. Have they been attrited completely, are they actually supplied soldiers now, or did the news cycle move off of them?
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2023 00:58
|
|
|
Ezra Klein at NYT did a great interview with Stanford Russian history professor Stephen Kotkin. Good overview of recent events with a healthy appreciation for the uncertainty in our current knowledge. Apple Spotify Amazon Music Google Podcasts
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2023 01:43
|
|
|
Popete posted:I'm in Chicago and both the neighborhood I live in and where my work is are historically Polish neighborhoods. There are lots of Ukrainian flags and bumper stickers around. Yeah when I worked downtown Chicago (twenty+ years ago god I'm old) the custodian notes were printed in both Spanish and Polish. There was a huge influx of Poles to distant cousins in America after the Wall fell. Maera Sior posted:If you broaden it to former Soviet/Imperial Russian territories, you're going to find even more people whose knee-jerk response is to tell Russia to gently caress off. I may not know where my ancestors specifically came from, but I know they were there and why they fled. Come on over to the Genealogy thread and we can help narrow that down for you!
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2023 01:50
|
|
|
Chalks posted:It's important to remember that this is the first time anyone has seen what a modern peer war looks like. This offensive is the first large scale counter offensive of this sort of the war (which is to say, one that Russia has had time to prepare for and isn't immediately at a huge strategic disadvantage). I think your conclusions are largely correct but I'd point out the Nagorno-Karabakh wars were modern peer conflicts in very recent history. MikeC's post above got me thinking. I wonder if Ukraine is primarily attacking at night, and has a critical mass of night vision optics that haven't been discussed as much as glamorous tanks and missiles amd such. It would wxolian the slower, but steady, pace. We know most Russian formations lack the ubiquity of night vision found in Western, it St least American, forces. Their older tanks don't have thermals, even: they have light amplification. (I imagine the modernized versions do have thermals, though.) Donkringel posted:What happened with the Donetsk conscript troops? I know they were being grabbed en masse early in the war and kept getting chewed up, but I haven't really seen any photos of them recently. Have they been attrited completely, are they actually supplied soldiers now, or did the news cycle move off of them? My understanding is they were very heavily attrited last summer. I would think there are still several brigades of them at various points on the front, though.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2023 02:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 08:18 |
|
|
https://kyivindependent.com/its-a-lottery-how-ukraines-assault-brigade-counterattacks-near-bakhmut/ New piece on the Ukr 80th which has apparently been rotated back for refitting and training. They are a pre-war regular unit that was most recently sent into Bakhmut in February to try and stabilize the situation and carried out some counter-attacks after the Russians finally seized the city. The most interesting part is the Twitter vids we get of squad-level action really are as big as it gets apparently, at least in the Bakhmut area. quote:After analyzing the drone-collected intelligence data across the Bakhmut front, the General Staff identifies weak points in Russia’s defense and lays out plans for assaults in that area.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2023 03:30
|
|