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Ibblebibble posted:It could be that Metia going out represented Ifrit dying and people just misinterpreted it in-universe. From the perspective of this game being a story where scenes are specifically written and constructed in a certain way, that doesn't really fit.
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Jul 9, 2023 01:32
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I gotta say, I did think Clive closing his eyes looked a lot more like he was going "gently caress I need a nap" than like, dying. He looked *exhausted* but ambiguous in state. But maybe he did die! I was pretty sure he didn't but the fact that so many people here were pretty sure he did makes me doubt myself.
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Jul 9, 2023 01:34
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Clive and Ultima's conflict is very textually, explicitly hope versus weaponised despair. Every time, he argues that humanity can be more than abused slaves, and that they do not need their slavemaster's poisoned gifts to survive. Just like Cidolfus before him, he's not trying to die, but he can accept his death if it happens because he has faith that the world can go on without him, and that the people he's left behind can make it a better place. It's why he took on the name of Cid the Outlaw and announced it to the world after the Hideaway was destroyed. It's why he was one of the first in line to have his Bearer brand removed despite the fifty per cent survival rate. It's not a death wish, but a willingness to risk himself in a bet on the future - that someone will still be there to make the world better. I think that's the point of the ending - it doesn't matter whether he survived, only that he accomplished his life's work and won his bet with Ultima on the fate of humanity. There were Clives and Joshuas after the old world ended, regardless of who they actually were, just as there was a Cid even after a crusty former general smoked one last cigarette amidst the ruins of one of humanity's shackles. Even if he died, he lived.
Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Jul 9, 2023 |
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Jul 9, 2023 01:35
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Clive is dead because otherwise he made Gav cry for nothing and that is unacceptable.
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Jul 9, 2023 01:41
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Yeah Clive closing his eyes looked more like he was passing out from exhaustion than dying. If he died in the ending, they would have showed more than a single hand turning to stone. Someone in Origin had to survive to write the book, and even after Clive removed the wound from Joshua's corpse there wasn't even a hint of movement. Joshua died (but this time on his own terms, for a cause, and with a chance to actually say goodbye to his brother), therefore Clive lives.
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Jul 9, 2023 02:23
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I was also confused by the notion that Clive was resurrecting Joshua, though to be fair I guess Ultima was casting Raise. I would be interested in the Japanese script and to see if it is differently ambiguous. I'm just not quite sure what the authorial intent was. Or if they even intended it to be ambiguous at all.
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Jul 9, 2023 02:51
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lines posted:I was also confused by the notion that Clive was resurrecting Joshua, though to be fair I guess Ultima was casting Raise. The argument for Clive resurrecting Joshua is: A) He tried to heal Joshua beforehand and couldn't and not even the Phoenix can resurrect the dead. However after he gets Ultima's power Joshua's wounds heal. It seems weird to show him try to heal Joshua twice and 'succeed' the second time if it had no effect, especially since Ultima's spell was explicitly Raise . B) The author at the book at the end is Joshua, not Clive.
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Jul 9, 2023 02:55
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"Metia" winks out because Clive was shouting so loud while fighting Ultima that Meteion heard him from space and decided to bring the collected works of Linkin Park to another world instead. FF14 crossover averted, world saved twice.
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Jul 9, 2023 03:30
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I feel like square intentionally made the ending ambiguous. More things point toward Clive being dead, but enough points to him being alive and they don’t make anything explicit that debate was inevitable. Sometimes that’s a useful tool to convey meaning, but I can’t really see how the ambiguity helps the themes in this case. Which makes it seems like they were spurring debate for the sake of debate, which is pretty unsatisfying.
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Jul 9, 2023 04:37
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Oxxidation posted:metia going out could have represented the moon turning to cheese, we wouldn't know either way because the only information we were ever given as to its nature was that it was a messenger between mankind's wishes and the moon. since any lore related to its significance is so flimsy, there's also very little significance to it going out, which is why it's so jarring that the cast suddenly takes it as a given that it means clive was extinguished along with it From the characters' point of view, Metia represents their wishes themselves, so the star fading out means that their wishes will never come true. IE: Clive is dead as gently caress. I have no idea what the star actually is in this setting, but that's why Jill cries. She is not magically privy to the secrets of the universe and how the star is connected to Ultima or Ifrit, she's just superstitious.
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Jul 9, 2023 04:55
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i went back and rewatched the cutscene because i was under the impression the crystal curse was up the left side of his face but thats just the reflection of the moon off the shoreClarste posted:From the characters' point of view, Metia represents their wishes themselves, so the star fading out means that their wishes will never come true. IE: Clive is dead as gently caress. I have no idea what the star actually is in this setting, but that's why Jill cries. She is not magically privy to the secrets of the universe and how the star is connected to Ultima or Ifrit, she's just superstitious. i thought it was just she felt his aether disappear. much like how clive knew she wasnt dead because he and joshua could feel Shiva's aether after she was kidnapped by Barry.
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Jul 9, 2023 05:18
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Yeah, we don’t know exactly what Metia was, but I interpret it as something powering magic in Valisthea. Or maybe a status light. When Clive destroyed Origin, Metia’s magic status light went out, and that’s when the Dominants couldn’t sense each other anymore.
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Jul 9, 2023 05:33
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Don't forget the extremely obvious literary juxtaposition of birth & death with the baby being born as Clive dies
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Jul 9, 2023 05:43
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HD DAD posted:Yeah, we don’t know exactly what Metia was, but I interpret it as something powering magic in Valisthea. Or maybe a status light. When Clive destroyed Origin, Metia’s magic status light went out, and that’s when the Dominants couldn’t sense each other anymore. I mean, even if that's true that doesn't explain why she would associate the star with anything but the wish she made to it.
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Jul 9, 2023 05:43
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If metia follows any real world rules, in order for it to always have a position near the moon it needs to be an object in orbit. Some people theorized that it’s a device used by Ultima that allows the use of aether as magic, but who knows how far the writers went with that. Could easily just be a symbol and having it near the moon looks cool.
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Jul 9, 2023 05:47
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HD DAD posted:Metia’s magic status light went out, Sigh. Someone needs to reboot the moon again.
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Jul 9, 2023 05:49
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Maybe in 300 years it'll stop flashing red and turn green.
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Jul 9, 2023 05:56
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I think my favorite part of the Ultima fight is when he starts loving up and goes from his measured monotone to talking like Xavier Renegade Angel.
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Jul 9, 2023 08:30
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There has to be a range on that dominant sense or else the story makes virtually zero sense. Clive would have known about 10 minutes into the game that Joshua was still alive otherwise. Maybe 10 hours if he needed to accept the truth first, but still.
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Jul 9, 2023 08:44
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Clive/Joshuas fate is a good hook for expansion/sequel though: FFXIV-2: Jills, Mids & Tarjas quest to find boyfriends. Issaries fucked around with this message at 12:11 on Jul 9, 2023 |
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Jul 9, 2023 10:10
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Failboattootoot posted:There has to be a range on that dominant sense or else the story makes virtually zero sense. Clive would have known about 10 minutes into the game that Joshua was still alive otherwise. Maybe 10 hours if he needed to accept the truth first, but still. Joshua is like 20 meters away when he watches Clive exit the Phoenix Gate… so not distance. Also not related to being familiar with the dominant because Hugo learns Benedikta is dead by receiving her head. I think they just needed a reason for the characters to not be freaking out about their possibly dead friend in that one scene and other implications weren’t really considered.
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Jul 9, 2023 10:27
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Issaries posted:Clive/Joshuas fate is a good hook for expansion/sequel though:
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Jul 9, 2023 10:28
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Clive doesn’t develop his dominant sense until after he absorbs Benedickta’s power. And by that time he already knows a fire dominant is running around. But he thinks it can’t be Josh because he’s secure in the knowledge that he killed him personally, even if it actually IS him.
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Jul 9, 2023 15:31
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If FFXVI-2: Boyfriend Quest could be set in Valisthea but be a trpg sequel to Final Fantasy Tactics, it would literally be the perfect game.
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Jul 9, 2023 16:42
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Mid just falls in love with a really cool looking engine
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Jul 9, 2023 16:44
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HD DAD posted:Mid just falls in love with a really cool looking engine Excuse you, we all know that Mid likes her engines hot.
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Jul 9, 2023 17:12
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Gotta say, this is now the fourth Final Fantasy in a row where there's some mysterious or semi-mysterious, threatening foreign nation and when you arrive at said nation [spoiler for XIII, XIV, XV] (Gran Pulse, Garlemald, Niflheim, Waloed), it had already been wiped out by internal forces.
Sesq fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Jul 9, 2023 |
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Jul 9, 2023 21:05
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Another fun detail I noticed in ng+. There’s only one place in the entire game where you can freely wander that is blighted—the Dim just past Eastpool. (And the hideaways of course) The game doesn’t allow you to cast magic there where otherwise you can just fling bolts at nothing; indeed Clive says as much. When you swap eikons in there you don’t get that cool elemental flourish that you usually get. I thought that was neat.
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Jul 9, 2023 21:43
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yeah now imagine if they actually did something with it
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Jul 9, 2023 22:06
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Vitamean posted:yeah now imagine if they actually did something with it Like what? Put you in a combat situation with only the attack button?
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Jul 9, 2023 22:24
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Captain Oblivious posted:Like what? Put you in a combat situation with only the attack button? I was honestly expecting that at some point. Like you get thrown into a desperate combat situation in one of those zones where you’d have to hold out until rescue comes
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Jul 9, 2023 22:31
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I assume they planned one of those (or a stealth segment) early on and decided that it would be the antithesis of fun.
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Jul 9, 2023 22:37
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It would fit with the established magical physics to have Clive learn to draw on his internal aether there. So he can fight as normal with all his cool Dominant powers, but doing so constantly drains his health.
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Jul 9, 2023 23:10
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I don’t think the game does anything to indicate that “internal aether” exists. It’s just something from the planet that you channel, and channeling eventually burns you out. Even Ultima’s plan is to create a vessel that can withstand channeling the full mined aether of all the crystals, not a vessel that is itself loaded with aether.
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Jul 10, 2023 00:15
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Bugblatter posted:I don’t think the game does anything to indicate that “internal aether” exists. It’s just something from the planet that you channel, and channeling eventually burns you out. Even Ultima’s plan is to create a vessel that can withstand channeling the full mined aether of all the crystals, not a vessel that is itself loaded with aether. the codices explicitly state that when dominants prime they draw off the aether of their own bodies (probably similar to how bearers cast) rather than the surrounding environment, which is why kupka could prime in the blighted region near cid's original hideaway. this is also why priming fucks up older dominants so badly, because using so much of their aether significantly accelerates crystalization
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Jul 10, 2023 00:17
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Ah. Yeah weird that you can't use magic at all in those areas then.
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Jul 10, 2023 00:30
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My understanding is that casting magic and priming are distinct. We don't see Titan do anything but smash the place when he primes at the hideaway.
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Jul 10, 2023 00:46
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IIRC there's an ATL entry that says that you can prime outside of a blighted area then stay primed when going into it, and that's what Hugo did when he destroyed the first hideaway. Has the drawbacks that others have already mentioned though.
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Jul 10, 2023 03:02
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Clive lives, if only because it's unfair that after a lifetime of pining for this guy all Jill gets is a naked beach makeout session.
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Jul 10, 2023 03:38
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Yeah, Hugo priming in a dead zone was supposed to be an indicator of just how insanely pissed he was because he did something immensely stupid and self-harming out of an overwhelming desire for revenge. It's not really a thing you 'learn' to do, it's just the equivalent to being so angry at someone you'll set yourself on fire to punch them. Despite similarities we're not really given any indication that FFXVI uses the same aether mythology as FFXIV. The aether in FFXVI is basically far less mutable and isn't really something that you can learn to gently caress with. Either you're born with the ability and using it fucks up both you and the land itself, or you're not and the best you can do is use stored crystals. Most if not all of the magic we see is either basic-rear end elemental manipulation (make wind/fire/etc) or extremely brute force. Healing is apparently possible since certain enemies use Cure and Joshua can use Curaga but both seem to be pretty rare as opposed to a basic part of the setting. (I don't think we're ever given any indication that crystal-based stuff can be used for healing, all the potions and stuff seem to just be potions.) In FFXIV manipuating aether is just how the world work and even something as simple as eating is connected to drawing aether from the environment, whereas in FFXVI it's basically a perverse corruption of the laws of reality wrought by a power-hunger god. The 'natural' state of the FFXVI world is one without magic (although to be fair it is also likely one without humans considering as far as we know the human population of the planet are The Twins and then whatever survivors of the Fallen took the gently caress off overseas.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Jul 10, 2023 |
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Jul 10, 2023 03:53
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