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SettingSun posted:One thing I think the game have made more interesting is having Clive run into more bearer assassin squads. You don't really see bearer fighters. But they appear ubiquitous enough that nobody seems to think Clive's cover story of early on of being Jill's bodyguard is very strange. When Clive fights Tiamat in the opening he magic bursts like Clive does. We don't really know the details of how some human enemies do magical feats so it's possible some of them are Bearers. For example, there are those ninja-like enemies who can call lightning and breathe fire.
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Jul 10, 2023 20:51
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ImpAtom posted:The issue isn't him being a bearer though. The plot is in fact pretty clear that if he had a crystal he could have done the same thing and nobody would have cared. The point is that once he was revealed as a bearer everything else he'd done for them became unimportant and despite the fact he was the most talented person in the village for entirely un-bearer reasons they only viewed him for that one act that was utterly unimportant to who he was. Bearer was just a label inflicted on him. The entire point is that bigotry is based on nothing about who he actually is, just a meaningless division. You're not wrong that most human use of magic in Valisthea seems to largely be terrible or banal, which is itself, I guess, part of what makes me feel a vague sense of sourness. Like even the Eikon fights, awesome as they are, really should not be happening or exist, and are objectively bad for everyone. Clive kills his mentor accidentally entirely because Ifrit exists. I don't know, it just feels kind of sour grapes? It's weird from the series which has in the popular mind been so defined by dreamlike beauty and fantastical worlds of wonder. I don't know, I'm probably wanting the game to be other than it is just because CBU3 was involved.
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Jul 10, 2023 20:51
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Ethiser posted:Except we learn from side quests and the lore that Bearers are set up as special magic soldiers in war and their magic is strong enough to call down a lightning bolt and kill something. I admit I missed that. But well magic still killling you for using it too much counts to my point still I think. But admittedly does make it less true.
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Jul 10, 2023 20:53
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I admit I missed that. But well magic still killling you for using it too much counts to my point still I think. But admittedly does make it less true. Technically, so does a lot of preindustrial and even industrial labor. Smiths tended to get poisoned by the fumes of their forges in the Bronze Age; Neolithic knappers would often apparently get silicosis. Labor always extracts its price without automation! I think it's more that bearers are constantly kept in a state of malnutrition and oppression so they can't actually do much more than the bare minimum needed to keep the forges running and the fields growing crops. Slavery isn't efficient because the goal to keep the slaves down compromises it. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Jul 10, 2023 |
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Jul 10, 2023 20:55
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Jetrauben posted:You're not wrong that human use of magic in Valisthea seems to largely be terrible, which is itself, I guess, part of what makes me feel a vague sense of sourness. Like even the Eikon fights, awesome as they are, really should not be happening or exist, and are objectively bad for everyone. Yeah. I think to me Bearers are just kind of a standpoint for 'disposable human labor' which is why I don't treat the ending as a bad thing. Even in a theoretical equal society where Bearers were still around their powers would still be defined as 'doing things we can find other ways to do but they have to die to do it.' There isn't really a good outcome for them short of 'not using their powers' because their powers kill them (and the planet) to use. It also isn't saying 'you can work without suffering'. The ending after all has NotClive trying frustratingly to start a fire and wishing he had an easier way. It's that you can't offload your suffering onto others because they 'deserve' it.
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Jul 10, 2023 20:57
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ImpAtom posted:Yeah. I think to me Bearers are just kind of a standpoint for 'disposable human labor' which is why I don't treat the ending as a bad thing. Even in a theoretical equal society where Bearers were still around their powers would still be defined as 'doing things we can find other ways to do but they have to die to do it.' There isn't really a good outcome for them short of 'not using their powers' because their powers kill them (and the planet) to use. This is why I suspect I'm being a little harsher than the writers expected because I look at "ok so they live as medieval peasants?" as not actually a huge change. Peasantry is entirely about the commodification of human life, periodic malnutrition and backbreaking labor. The main optimistic touch is that they have a book. I'm kind of puzzled the ending didn't have more obvious examples of Mid's technology given that the Hideaway is a pretty technology driven society. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Jul 10, 2023 |
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Jul 10, 2023 21:05
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It would have been funny if the post credits was, like, a modern day earth level of technology but I suppose other jrpgs have already done this twist.
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Jul 10, 2023 21:10
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Jetrauben posted:This is why I suspect I'm being a little harsher than the writers expected because I look at "ok so they live as medieval peasants?" as not actually a change. Peasantry is entirely about the commodification of human life, periodic malnutrition and backbreaking labor. The main optimistic touch is that they have a book. I can see that. I just don't inherently think what we're shown is a bad life. It isn't as good as it could be but that's sort of the (ideal) course of human history in that we continue to make lives better for the next generation and find our happiness in an imperfect world. Just staying alive is inevitably going to be painful and a struggle but the alternative ( a society that can only thrive if it throws away both its people and its future) is abhorrent. And yeah, we're posting that on a video game forum about $500 game consoles about a game whose development cost could feed a small country for a year. There's no ethical consumption and all that but if you're going for a climate change allegory I prefer "life might suck but that doesn't mean you should give up" over the more optimistic ones I've seen which usually boil down to "Don't worry, we'll find a miracle and you won't have to deal with any major changes to your lifestyle."
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Jul 10, 2023 21:13
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ImpAtom posted:And yeah, we're posting that on a video game forum about $500 game consoles about a game whose development cost could feed a small country for a year. There's no ethical consumption and all that but if you're going for a climate change allegory I prefer "life might suck but that doesn't mean you should give up" over the more optimistic ones I've seen which usually boil down to "Don't worry, we'll find a miracle and you won't have to deal with any major changes to your lifestyle." Yeah, this is why I like that post-credits scene so much. We're shown a pretty humble domestic scene with a kid who hasn't quite mastered how to light a fire with flint and steel yet, but whose home seems happy. Our last image is two brothers playing with their puppy in a lush, beautiful garden surrounded by woodlands on a sunny day. Sure, it's mundane and not as comfortable as it could be and not every day is going to be that good, but on balance they seem happy, and that's a nice image to end on.
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Jul 10, 2023 21:15
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ImpAtom posted:I can see that. I just don't inherently think what we're shown is a bad life. It isn't as good as it could be but that's sort of the (ideal) course of human history in that we continue to make lives better for the next generation and find our happiness in an imperfect world. Just staying alive is inevitably going to be painful and a struggle but the alternative ( a society that can only thrive if it throws away both its people and its future) is abhorrent. My even limited knowledge of subsistence agriculture leads me to think it's actually a pretty drat terrible life by any modern standard - again we're talking yearly malnutrition, arranged marriage to barter your kids away for a social safety net, very little social mobility, poor education, intolerance for outsiders, high infant and child mortality, poor material conditions, etc. The more interesting question is whether it's better or worse than previous Valisthean life for your average person, and to what degree "is this because Mid got cold feet?" But again, I expect that this is me being more critical than the game writers intended because they're probably just using Ye Olde Peasant Farmstead as the same sort of idealized symbol it usually is in RPGs. The writers can't be blamed for me being a deeply anti-pastoralist.
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Jul 10, 2023 21:17
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Jetrauben posted:My even limited knowledge of subsistence agriculture leads me to think it's actually a pretty drat terrible life by any modern standard - again we're talking yearly malnutrition, arranged marriage to barter your kids away for a social safety net, very little social mobility, poor education, intolerance for outsiders, high infant and child mortality, poor material conditions, etc. The more interesting question is whether it's better or worse than previous Valisthean life for your average person, and to what degree "is this because Mid got cold feet?" I do think the fact that the kids in the ending are literate suggests things might not be so dire or backwards. There's certainly education if these non-aristocratic kids can read, y'know? We don't get to see a lot of what that world looks like but it's entirely possible it's not full-on medieval mud farming all over the place but perhaps something better than that.
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Jul 10, 2023 21:20
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We're shown a classic happy fantasy homestead not the horrors of a shack of mudfarmers circa europe post bubonic plague.
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Jul 10, 2023 21:22
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Ibram Gaunt posted:We're shown a classic happy fantasy homestead not the horrors of a shack of mudfarmers circa europe post bubonic plague. Ironically, the black death actually made things arguably better for the average peasant! But yeah, I think I'm just having a gut response to something that the writers intended more to be a classic "see? The era of heroes and magic has passed!"
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Jul 10, 2023 21:24
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I'm not sure we see enough to really even infer an overall technology level. For all we know they're just a rural family in a world that otherwise resembles 18th century Europe--what we see of their house makes that entirely possible. We can't even really infer from their clothes because they're not dressed like any particular time period in Earth's history.
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Jul 10, 2023 21:26
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The kids can read, which is a far sight from the current state, where knowing your letters means Cid puts you to work on the ledgers.
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Jul 10, 2023 21:27
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SettingSun posted:The kids can read, which is a far sight from the current state, where knowing your letters means Cid puts you to work on the ledgers. “From each according according his ability” The Bearer’s People’s Republic isn’t going to run itself.
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Jul 10, 2023 21:29
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SettingSun posted:The kids can read, which is a far sight from the current state, where knowing your letters means Cid puts you to work on the ledgers. ...that is an EXCELLENT point, though some of that might be just because bearers aren't taught to read as part of being treated as less than human. But then again, actually, yeah, Valisthea doesn't actually seem that literate? It feels significant that the thing that folks use to identify you is an organizational seal. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Jul 10, 2023 |
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Jul 10, 2023 21:29
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Yeah the very fact that this family owns books suggests a tech level more advanced than what we'd identify as medieval Europe. We don't get to see the pages but for all we know there are printing presses and widespread literacy.
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Jul 10, 2023 21:31
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Harrow posted:I'm not sure we see enough to really even infer an overall technology level. For all we know they're just a rural family in a world that otherwise resembles 18th century Europe--what we see of their house makes that entirely possible. We can't even really infer from their clothes because they're not dressed like any particular time period in Earth's history. It’s just a M Night Shyamalan twist where their society is on par with our own modern society but these 3 weirdos live in a hut in the forest
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Jul 10, 2023 21:38
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I really hope that the medicine girl and Dion's man survived Origin launching, otherwise yeah I get why Dion made that choice.
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Jul 10, 2023 23:29
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Harrow posted:We don't really know the details of how some human enemies do magical feats so it's possible some of them are Bearers. For example, there are those ninja-like enemies who can call lightning and breathe fire. IIRC every time they cast ninjutsu they clink a crystal on their belt, I've seen people mention that animation. mycot posted:It would have been funny if the post credits was, like, a modern day earth level of technology but I suppose other jrpgs have already done this twist. Isn't this the ending of Lightning Returns? There's one particular claim being made about Mid in this thread that I don't get. There's people acting like the end of her sidequest was "I'm never going to share my inventions with the world" when it clearly wasn't? She just didn't want to share her one invention that could most easily be turned to war, she didn't say that she wasn't going to help rig up bellows or watermills and stuff. She was trying to make sure that her swords got beaten into ploughs rather than continuing to be used as swords, she would still make ploughs!
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Jul 11, 2023 00:38
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She even decided to make a riddle so that someone in the future would be able to use her invention, which sounds like a future sidequest in XVI-2 to me! I think you could set a sequel post-final credits scene. It would mean none of the same characters appeared but they could appear as authors, or whatever passes for magitek audiologs, if you like. The deep history of Valisthea...
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Jul 11, 2023 00:45
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Ibblebibble posted:IIRC every time they cast ninjutsu they clink a crystal on their belt, I've seen people mention that animation. Oh cool, I never noticed that. Neat detail
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Jul 11, 2023 00:47
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The ninja dudes are so weird because honestly I think they're some of the only cases of casting a spell, as in a more complex magical interaction rather than just crude force magic, in the game from non-Dominants? Like there's actually very little complex magic in Valisthea, other than the occasional enemy casting a Protect spell.Ibblebibble posted:There's one particular claim being made about Mid in this thread that I don't get. There's people acting like the end of her sidequest was "I'm never going to share my inventions with the world" when it clearly wasn't? She just didn't want to share her one invention that could most easily be turned to war, she didn't say that she wasn't going to help rig up bellows or watermills and stuff. She was trying to make sure that her swords got beaten into ploughs rather than continuing to be used as swords, she would still make ploughs! Steam ships and rapid transit offer such tremendous boons to a world that's about to have a great deal of trouble moving food from place to place, though. Like, a refusal to popularize steam engines because - contrary to the governments in charge forming an explicit non-aggression pact - she's worried about some time in the future people using them for war is just such a jarringly verisimilitude-killing decision? This is a world that needs all the help it can get to not suffer an immediate and catastrophic quality-of-life collapse leading to imminent famines, displacement, war and - yes - likely enslavement to work the fields, and Mid's here going "but what if someone would weaponize them though? Best to drop them into a bottomless pit and leave behind a cute riddle so that at some point in the distant future somebody might be able to copy them for engines after everyone I know has been driven back to subsistence." It's a jarringly weird anti-technological-progress note compared to the Hideaway otherwise being a very progressive community all about finding new solutions to problems. It feels like it belongs in a slightly different script. The steam engine is just such a tremendous force for good and techno-optimism, and to have Mid say "nah, actually, I feel worried Man is Not Ready" as opposed to contrasting the death of magic with the rise of a world built on ingenuity it represents is bizarre for both her character (although I suppose she has a habit of choking at certain key moments as seen with Cid's grave) and the thesis of the game. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Jul 11, 2023 |
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Jul 11, 2023 00:57
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I don't think she would not spread steam power in generic though, it's the mythril engine design in particular that she won't share. There's efficient enough to make a trade run and then there's efficient enough to make a warship on the brink of taking to the skies, yknow?
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Jul 11, 2023 01:03
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Ibblebibble posted:I don't think she would not spread steam power in generic though, it's the mythril engine design in particular that she won't share. There's efficient enough to make a trade run and then there's efficient enough to make a warship on the brink of taking to the skies, yknow? Point. Maybe I'm being over-pessimistic again. I don't know, it just feels weird? Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Jul 11, 2023 |
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Jul 11, 2023 01:04
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it seemed fairly clear to me that she was talking very specifically about the airship concept but maybe i seriously misread it
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Jul 11, 2023 01:06
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Yeah, it was about the airship, which wasn't even working, not the mythril engine.
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Jul 11, 2023 01:08
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Fair enough, maybe I misremembered a detail too, but I feel like my overall point still stands. Besides, I don't think she's entirely wrong. Sure, the triunity now wouldn't use airships for war, but who's to say that it will last ten years, let alone fifty or so? She's thinking long term here. Besides, did anyone even tell her that the triunity is a thing now? Hello, Clive??? She's probably working off the assumption that there just aren't any diplomatic pacts at the moment. Also I trust Mid because she said her vote for Cid III was Jill.
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Jul 11, 2023 01:11
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Ibblebibble posted:Fair enough, maybe I misremembered a detail too, but I feel like my overall point still stands. I mean, I personally think that "our airships and steam ships allow the people of Valisthea better lives" is a big enough payoff to be worth the risk of "maybe somebody will weaponize them," if only because the alternative isn't "no one goes to war," it's "people go to war for human labor or limited resources and are still subject to the tyranny of the wagon vis a vis food supplies." But it's fairly said it may just be the airship isn't ready yet rather than "I'll drown my books" ala Prospero in The Tempest. I really do wonder what the appeal of a sequel is, though; anyone want to elaborate on it?
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Jul 11, 2023 01:14
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I don't think she's naive enough to think that there wouldn't be wars, just that she doesn't want airships involved that would increase the devastation of any one war. They'd basically be Eikons 2, just on a smaller scale.
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Jul 11, 2023 01:18
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Yeah I thought it was just airships.
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Jul 11, 2023 01:19
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Ibblebibble posted:I don't think she's naive enough to think that there wouldn't be wars, just that she doesn't want airships involved that would increase the devastation of any one war. They'd basically be Eikons 2, just on a smaller scale. Oh sure that's not what I meant, what I meant was that I think it relies heavily on whether one thinks technology is a greater agent for peace (because less need for human labor & greater production & transport of necessary goods) or warfare.
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Jul 11, 2023 01:20
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I don't blame her for seeing how hosed up the world is with giant kaiju men and going "maybe giving people the ability to drop bombs on entire villages isn't a good idea"
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Jul 11, 2023 01:21
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The way other engineers were describing how bad things would be if the mythril engines hosed up, initially made me think she essentially discovered nuclear energy, so deciding to scrap and/or hide everything behind The Joker's Riddle for fear of war is understandable.
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Jul 11, 2023 02:15
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https://old.reddit.com/r/FFXVI/comments/14vrsz8/lyrics_for_away_phoenix_theme_song_has_been/ The usual Soken "I don't hear any English lyrics in these songs until I have the written lyrics down in front of me then I can hear them fine".
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Jul 11, 2023 03:01
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mycot posted:It would have been funny if the post credits was, like, a modern day earth level of technology but I suppose other jrpgs have already done this twist. Clive wakes up in modern day Paris.
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Jul 11, 2023 03:57
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Clive wakes up in modern day Paris. Clive punches Ultima so hard he opens a rift between worlds, ends up in Tokyo, and accidentally triggers White Chlorination Syndrome, dooming the human race 
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Jul 11, 2023 04:05
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I mean that was sure what I was thinking of when the giant Lilly bloomed over the ruins of a city while dragon looking eikons flew circles around it.
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Jul 11, 2023 04:25
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Bugblatter posted:I mean that was sure what I was thinking of when the giant Lilly bloomed over the ruins of a city while dragon looking eikons flew circles around it. There's some folks who think that whole sequence was at least somewhat contributed to by Taro apparently? Due to the use of flashback and such?
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Jul 11, 2023 05:00
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