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Jetrauben posted:It's also worth noting that in a pre-industrial urban society, absent the ingenuity of people like Mid, the question isn't so much "Slavery: y/n?" with Bearers/Branded as the slaves, it's "who do we force to do the dangerous, backbreaking work?" Eh, I've never really seen much to match the 'we HAD to have slaves' argument. Slaves were convenient and 'cheap' as long as you considered human life disposable but they weren't necessary. There was extremely hard work but most of it was in specific service to a goal like food or housing and we got to the point where we had surpluses pretty quickly.
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Jul 11, 2023 19:38
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ImpAtom posted:Eh, I've never really seen much to match the 'we HAD to have slaves' argument. Slaves were convenient and 'cheap' as long as you considered human life disposable but they weren't necessary. There was extremely hard work but most of it was in specific service to a goal like food or housing and we got to the point where we had surpluses pretty quickly. Not really? In real life in Eurasia, peasants were the vast majority of the population and they still typically had periodic cycles of malnutrition, were constantly worried about bad years, often in antiquity had to pull their own plows by hand, basically had to coerce the entire household to work, and were taxed for coerced labor. I'm just saying it's quite typical that in a lot of these societies they took the (evil) option of going "hey rather than doing these incredibly difficult and often dangerous tasks let's get someone else to do it," and therefore in Valisthean society they're just following a similar pattern. Pre-industrial and pre-agricultural revolution society isn't inherently one of slaves but it's one where very few members of society have great opportunities for social mobility. This isn't a "we had to have slaves," it's "the alternative in Valisthea is still tremendous amounts of very hard labor, so it's mostly just the people deciding to force Bearers to do it - because without technological advancements society would be forcing someone else, like the peasants, to do it instead. So the reason we haven't had a Cid up until, well, Cid, is that Cid is able to conceptualize a world where they need less coerced labor period." That's why the Hideaway is framed more like an anarchic commune, and why part of Elwin's proposed renewal program for Rosaria involved not just Bearer liberation but universities for non-magical technologies. The enslavement of Bearers is specifically because Valisthea is already in a societal place to see "citizenship" or full members of society who don't get coerced as a select group, rather than as the default. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Jul 11, 2023 |
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Jul 11, 2023 19:41
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One small detail that confuses me is that Mid went to engineering school, so there must be a sizable enough popularion of engineers out there that know all about science and chemistry and whatnot to teach people about bellows. I guess Mid is the only one actually applying that knowledge with the rest of the world?
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Jul 11, 2023 20:23
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CharlestonJew posted:One small detail that confuses me is that Mid went to engineering school, so there must be a sizable enough popularion of engineers out there that know all about science and chemistry and whatnot to teach people about bellows. I guess Mid is the only one actually applying that knowledge with the rest of the world? It might be limited to the Free Cities? It's worth noting that the literal "best blacksmiths in the world" village that Blackthorne comes from is still this rather small hovel in the desert. Another interesting thing that was pointed out to me: even though Dhalmek clearly needs it, they have no depicted aqueducts or irrigation technology; only Rosaria has that.
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Jul 11, 2023 20:28
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Jetrauben posted:A lot of these seemingly simple things are historically actually extremely difficult and time-consuming to do. We often don't appreciate how much labor and ingenuity goes into mundane tasks without the benefits of modern industrialization and tools. The people of Valisthea aren't stupid, they're just not working with the same understanding we do or the various ways to save time and effort developed over eons. Yeah, I guess I can see it. Being reflective for a bit, I think one of the things 16 does very well is subtlety -- it shows you quite a bit, and puts a lot of the exposition in sidequests or lore entries. I think my real gripe is less "they didn't do a good job" and more "did they efficiently pace out the main quest", because it feels like there's a few places they went subtle and really shouldn't have.
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Jul 11, 2023 20:44
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I'm reflecting on some of the handwringing when this game was first revealed about how grounded it looked, that it didn't look "Final Fantasy" enough, and laughing thinking about how we now know that this is the game where Ifrit and Phoenix do a fusion dance to fight Bahamut in space
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Jul 11, 2023 22:17
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Harrow posted:I'm reflecting on some of the handwringing when this game was first revealed about how grounded it looked, that it didn't look "Final Fantasy" enough, and laughing thinking about how we now know that this is the game where Ifrit and Phoenix do a fusion dance to fight Bahamut in space Excuse you, the Titan fight is extremely grounded. Also gritty.
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Jul 11, 2023 23:11
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How ironic in the Final Fantasy thread to find people talking Endlessly about Realism
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Jul 11, 2023 23:14
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Harrow posted:I'm reflecting on some of the handwringing when this game was first revealed about how grounded it looked, that it didn't look "Final Fantasy" enough, and laughing thinking about how we now know that this is the game where Ifrit and Phoenix do a fusion dance to fight Bahamut in space As soon as PRESS L3 + R3 TO ACCEPT THE TRUTH happened, I knew I was in for some proper Final Fantasy.
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Jul 11, 2023 23:17
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CharlestonJew posted:One small detail that confuses me is that Mid went to engineering school, so there must be a sizable enough popularion of engineers out there that know all about science and chemistry and whatnot to teach people about bellows. I guess Mid is the only one actually applying that knowledge with the rest of the world? My guess is a lot if the engineering focus is on instruments of war (we do see some catapults / trebuchets in the intro)which is why Mid ended up leaving. I guess there's also actual structures and boats that need engineering as well. I also imagine that creating something that does what a bearer already does is a quick way to have your career and possibly life ended. Creating a bellows literally undermines the existing power structure, after all.
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Jul 11, 2023 23:35
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Harrow posted:I'm reflecting on some of the handwringing when this game was first revealed about how grounded it looked, that it didn't look "Final Fantasy" enough, and laughing thinking about how we now know that this is the game where Ifrit and Phoenix do a fusion dance to fight Bahamut in space Naw, this game is aesthetically really dull to me in comparison to pretty much all ff's from 6 on up. When people complain about the groundedness it has everything to do with the architecture and scenery being boring and drab, and it largely is minus the mothercrystals and maybe the odd bit of fallen junk but that wasn't all that cool either most of the time. Just looked like ff11 promyvions.
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Jul 11, 2023 23:35
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Failboattootoot posted:Naw, this game is aesthetically really dull to me in comparison to pretty much all ff's from 6 on up. When people complain about the groundedness it has everything to do with the architecture and scenery being boring and drab, and it largely is minus the mothercrystals and maybe the odd bit of fallen junk but that wasn't all that cool either most of the time. Just looked like ff11 promyvions. I am not sure how that is different from FF12 or FFXV
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Jul 11, 2023 23:42
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ImpAtom posted:I am not sure how that is different from FF12 or FFXV 12 is a way cooler world, you got actual airships, much more varied and unique terrain. The floating city, arcadia vs. rabanastre, phon coast, ridorana cataract, etc. It was a poo poo ton more fantastical. FF15 I will give you though, not a lot of area variety there.
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Jul 12, 2023 00:04
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altissia had some lovely architecture, though the way you navigated it was not so lovely
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Jul 12, 2023 00:11
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Failboattootoot posted:12 is a way cooler world, you got actual airships, much more varied and unique terrain. The floating city, arcadia vs. rabanastre, phon coast, ridorana cataract, etc. It was a poo poo ton more fantastical. FF15 I will give you though, not a lot of area variety there. It would have been a lot harder of a sell for the heroes' goal in FF16 if the world had actually been super fantastical and marvelous though. I agree I wish there were more varied biomes in the game though.
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Jul 12, 2023 00:13
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Jetrauben posted:It would have been a lot harder of a sell for the heroes' goal in FF16 if the world had actually been super fantastical and marvelous though. Yeah, I was mentioning in another thread, you can have a nonmagical desert... but it's fantasy, you can make the sand a wacky colour. Go put some weird fantasy trees in the forest. Don't even need to be magical trees, just weird trees.
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Jul 12, 2023 00:41
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Hell, there are deserts with colorful sand on Earth, in real life You don't even need magic to have really fantastical landscapes. There are some wild places on Earth that would probably look like magical, fantastical landscapes in a movie if you didn't know they were real.
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Jul 12, 2023 00:48
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Of course, another way to make things more fantastical would be to really lean into magic being an alien and sinister intrusion into a relatively normal world. Let the aetherflow-infected regions get weird.
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Jul 12, 2023 00:50
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On that topic, I haven't played it yet but I do really like the aesthetics of Forspoken's magic. Even things that are just basic elemental spells usually have some kind of otherworldly element to them and it's a cool look. It's cool when magic looks weird.
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Jul 12, 2023 00:52
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Darth Walrus posted:Of course, another way to make things more fantastical would be to really lean into magic being an alien and sinister intrusion into a relatively normal world. Let the aetherflow-infected regions get weird. They do a little of that, but aether is kind of weird because it's ostensibly a natural part of the world. I think the "cherenkov radiation" vibe they have going works ok. I think the best approach would have been to emphasize the ways Valisthea is and will remain weird and marvelous even without cast magic around, with fanciful landscapes and creatures. I know one of the complaints I've seen is that Valisthea just isn't very colorful, and I've also heard hypotheses that the use of ray tracing results in somewhat weird color palettes. (We still don't really know if destroying magic will also wipe out the fantastic fauna or wreck even the capacity for magitech, do we? Because magitech runs off aether, rather than crystals or Bearers?) I wonder if the open world nature of the game also works against it here. Most of the "duty" areas are actually quite memorable partly because they can have a bespoke, directed environment with good skybox use, while the "overworld" areas tend to feel smaller and more mundane. Folks have criticized the open world exploration already, would it have been better to have more directed hub stages instead? Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Jul 12, 2023 |
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Jul 12, 2023 00:58
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Harrow posted:On that topic, I haven't played it yet but I do really like the aesthetics of Forspoken's magic. Even things that are just basic elemental spells usually have some kind of otherworldly element to them and it's a cool look. It's cool when magic looks weird. Going deep into the Break does also make things really weird in the way I'm thinking of in that game, yes. The landscape literally looks like it's got cancer.
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Jul 12, 2023 01:09
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Jetrauben posted:(We still don't really know if destroying magic will also wipe out the fantastic fauna or wreck even the capacity for magitech, do we? Because magitech runs off aether, rather than crystals or Bearers?) Magitek was called that because it's technology that is so advanced that it might as well be magic, so it should probably still work post-Clivening. Assuming that people can actually replicate it.
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Jul 12, 2023 01:38
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What annoys me now that I think about it how Jill basically does nothing after her Dungeon and pretty much gets fridged for no reason. So Benedikta turned nuts despite already being nuts after Clive sucked her powers, but "oh no Jill you can't be part of this Story anymore despite Bahamut being perfectly fine to do so". That's such a dumb reason especially since she can join you doing Sidequests and Hunts anyhow
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Jul 12, 2023 07:26
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Side-lined is prob a more accurate term than fridged. That has a very specific meaning that isn't at all accurate. But yeah, she isn't really done justice by the plot.
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Jul 12, 2023 07:47
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Bugblatter posted:Side-lined is prob a more accurate term than fridged. That has a very specific meaning that isn't at all accurate. Listen,I used fridged cause she's Shiva
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Jul 12, 2023 07:54
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Jack-Off Lantern posted:What annoys me now that I think about it how Jill basically does nothing after her Dungeon and pretty much gets fridged for no reason. So Benedikta turned nuts despite already being nuts after Clive sucked her powers, but "oh no Jill you can't be part of this Story anymore despite Bahamut being perfectly fine to do so". That's such a dumb reason especially since she can join you doing Sidequests and Hunts anyhow Look there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for why Dion can continue to fight and transform and Jill has to stay home https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMdYZG_gdwI
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Jul 12, 2023 08:02
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Jill definitely got sidelined hard, but for the final mission she was already nearly dead from overusing Shiva. It was a suicide mission anyway so Clive probably wouldn't want her to come
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Jul 12, 2023 08:29
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Jill is apparently 'too strained' but on the flipside Joshua is spewing blood so it's not as convincing an argument as it could've been.
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Jul 12, 2023 08:32
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RatHat posted:Jill definitely got sidelined hard, but for the final mission she was already nearly dead from overusing Shiva. It was a suicide mission anyway so Clive probably wouldn't want her to come Quad-Disaster wouldn't have as nice a ring as Tri-Disaster so it's good that she stayed back imo
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Jul 12, 2023 08:33
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Ibblebibble posted:Quad-Disaster wouldn't have as nice a ring as Tri-Disaster so it's good that she stayed back imo Ok but it could've been called Paradox!
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Jul 12, 2023 08:42
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Jetrauben posted:Ok but it could've been called Paradox! Tri-Disaster has more FF street cred! Paradox was just in XIV!
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Jul 12, 2023 10:00
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bewilderment posted:Jill is apparently 'too strained' but on the flipside Joshua is spewing blood so it's not as convincing an argument as it could've been. Joshua just does that. It's his thing. So long as he's spewing blood rather than crystal, it's no biggie.
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Jul 12, 2023 10:12
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He just has anime coughing blood disease, it’s nothing
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Jul 12, 2023 10:44
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On your first trip to Eastern Dhalmekia, you see two guys trying to coax Clive into killing a bunch of bandits that have stolen a courier's cart and killed its runner. If you do it, in Boklad you can participate in a conversation with someone basically saying, "yeah, don't help those brothers, they're known for deceiving and manipulate many parties to get what they want." Unfortunately this information comes too late to be of use. As soon as I saw them, I immediately noted their suspicious nature, but I did their quest because  oh boy more Reputation points! If you turn them down and don't do their quest, is there any payoff? I was thinking about trying this in my current playthrough, but wanted to see if anyone else had meaningful input first.
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Jul 12, 2023 10:49
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The Grimace posted:On your first trip to Eastern Dhalmekia, you see two guys trying to coax Clive into killing a bunch of bandits that have stolen a courier's cart and killed its runner. If you do it, in Boklad you can participate in a conversation with someone basically saying, "yeah, don't help those brothers, they're known for deceiving and manipulate many parties to get what they want." Unfortunately this information comes too late to be of use. I don't have an answer to your question but my assumption would be that those chattering NPCs probably don't spawn until you've completed the quest, and that there's no actual branching outcomes.
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Jul 12, 2023 11:42
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The Grimace posted:On your first trip to Eastern Dhalmekia, you see two guys trying to coax Clive into killing a bunch of bandits that have stolen a courier's cart and killed its runner. If you do it, in Boklad you can participate in a conversation with someone basically saying, "yeah, don't help those brothers, they're known for deceiving and manipulate many parties to get what they want." Unfortunately this information comes too late to be of use. I was really sad when I discovered the scam because the idea that these two were actually on the level but don't know how to not sound incredibly shady at all times was really funny to me.
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Jul 12, 2023 12:23
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For the record, I don't feel Clive dying goes against any of the themes in the game whatsoever. Of course everyone is telling him don't become a martyr, don't throw your life away, come back alive etc, because how could they not? Telling Clive that he has to make it back alive is giving themselves (Jill, gav, etc) the glimmer of hope that just maybe it isn't a suicide mission, so I think it's bit of a red herring thematically. What is highly symbolic thematically is Clive dying to the bearers curse because having done what he did he will have been the last person ever to die in that way thus accomplishing the goal of creating a world where people can choose how they live
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Jul 12, 2023 13:34
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Clive not coming home got me welled up for the sole reason that Torgal won’t be able to go on walks with him anymore.
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Jul 12, 2023 13:57
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The Flying Milton posted:Clive not coming home got me welled up for the sole reason that Torgal won’t be able to go on walks with him anymore. But now Torgal can ride on Ambrosia’s back, so it evens out for him
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Jul 12, 2023 14:12
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The Flying Milton posted:Clive not coming home got me welled up for the sole reason that Torgal won’t be able to go on walks with him anymore. Same but replace Torgal with Gav.
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Jul 12, 2023 14:12
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