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I believe the OP is complaining about the same thing about HK's map system (having to activate the automap for each area) that everybody who complains about it, complains about.
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Jul 17, 2023 19:52
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I think it's interesting for games to feel the freedom to tinker around with base mechanics instead of feeling a need to stay married to conventions for the sake of comfort. Especially in a genre that is often defined by evoking horror at times. Causing the player a bit of discomfort from the lack of information in a new area or trying to bait them out into handicapping themselves for the sake of a little more fighting power are easy ways of doing that. It can also add to the feeling of triumph when you overcome these things. It's always important to be able to question convention to be able to build more complex experiences, because otherwise you leave out half the experience of the game in the development process. There's plenty of interesting things that you can do by messing around with the backend. I also think it's interesting to hunt for Cornifer when you see some map scraps or hear his humming, and it's satisfying to see him at the end after you've bought all his maps. I think the most interesting way the mechanic is used is with the Fog Canyon, which is in the middle of the world map and accessible early on, but Cornifer is in a spot you can't get without a lategame upgrade, so it's left for a long time as just a mysterious corridor that most players wouldn't be bold enough to fully explore. A softer and more subtle way of gating off areas.
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Jul 17, 2023 20:23
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I went on a road trip but my map doesn't have a marker telling me where I am as I drive around, wtf, this fails at being a map
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Jul 17, 2023 20:51
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Turn on the GPS, grandpa.
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Jul 17, 2023 21:28
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A scribble on a napkin done in crayon is a metroidvania
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Jul 17, 2023 21:36
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ultrachrist posted:Turn on the GPS, grandpa.
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Jul 17, 2023 21:39
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Tortolia posted:Yes but you have to actually remember where you’ve been until you find a bench or a map merchant and doesn’t instantly autofill the grid, so it fails at being a map The problem, at least for me, is that none of the more complex map systems I've encountered have felt like they actually add more merit to the system. They just make the map more frustrating to use. Tortolia posted:GRIME has a neat “not getting this for free” map mechanic where you have to find crystal pillars in each region to enable the permanent map logging, but: I'm not opposed to systems where things aren't given to you, and you have to earn them, but I don't think that the map should be one of the things you have to earn. This post actually made me less interested in playing GRIME, because even though they put in the effort to make the system less obnoxious to use, at the end of the day I just don't like that system.
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Jul 17, 2023 21:58
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It is fine to like or not like the map system in Hollow Knight. But words have meaning and for something to be "objectively" bad would mean that it is an immutable fact, not something that can be disagreed with, and that is clearly not the case as multiple people in this thread, myself included, like the way the map works in Hollow Knight. It is fine for you to not like it but that does not make it an objective fact. My only significant gripe about Hollow Knight is that I think a couple zones have overly punishing bench placement, like Crystal Peak. I also think they way overshot the mark re-doing the Traitor Lord fight, making it too difficult, and the Trial of the Fool is too long. I also do not care about most of the expansion stuff, particularly whichever thing had the boss rush (Godmaster?), since I am not into extreme challenge content.
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Jul 17, 2023 22:04
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hollow knight is one of the best games ever made and a tier above nearly everything else in the genre in terms of scope, freedom of exploration, and combat. that doesn't mean it doesn't have flaws but they're relatively minor. the map mechanic was interesting - getting lost your first time through an area was compelling - but i hardly think it's an essential part of the game and i get why a lot of people would hate it. i did not care for the endgame precision platforming stuff at all and focusing a lot of the post-release content on even more extreme challenge bosses & boss rushes was exhausting and i lost interest. there was also the occasional platforming segment throughout the game that was an obnoxious brief difficulty spike.
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Jul 17, 2023 22:17
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As someone who would probably put Hollow Knight near the top of favourite games of all time: I think the map complaints are coming from a valid place, even if I don't personally agree. I've played the game so many times its hard to remember how it felt the first time, but it can be frustrating trying to find your way through an area before getting the map. In most areas, Cornifer is on the main path, you can hear his humming from far away, and you usually get a visual guide to direct you towards him (paper scraps on the ground). In other areas, he is deliberately hard to find to generate a feeling of tension (like if you fall into Deepnest without a map). I like the features but I can see why people don't like it especially in the early parts of the game. Once you do have the maps, it's one of the best of all time - tons of important areas auto-marked, and you get a wide variety of pins to remind yourself to come back to places as needed. guppy posted:I also think they way overshot the mark re-doing the Traitor Lord fight, making it too difficult, and the Trial of the Fool is too long. I also do not care about most of the expansion stuff, particularly whichever thing had the boss rush (Godmaster?), since I am not into extreme challenge content. See, this is one of the things I really, really like about Hollow Knight - there is a big element of being able to choose your own difficulty. You can basically pick and choose which of the end-game content to engage with while not missing out on much content at all. You don't need to fight the Traitor Lord to beat the game. You don't get anything from the Trial of the Fool expect personal satisfaction (and some Geo) - it is a long challenge, but you're not missing an upgrade or charm if you choose not to do it. You don't have to do the ridiculous Path of Pain platforming challenge unless you really like that sort of thing. You don't have to fight the Dream bosses or other enhanced bosses. The Godmaster content is very challenging, but luckily its just there for people who like that kind of thing - plus it adds the ability to replay any boss fight in the game as much as you want, which is fantastic. If you don't like the boss rush part of it, no worries! It was free content added later, there should be no pressure to do it if you don't want to.
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Jul 17, 2023 22:28
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guppy posted:It is fine to like or not like the map system in Hollow Knight. But words have meaning and for something to be "objectively" bad would mean that it is an immutable fact, not something that can be disagreed with, and that is clearly not the case as multiple people in this thread, myself included, like the way the map works in Hollow Knight. It is fine for you to not like it but that does not make it an objective fact. Hollow Knight is already one of the best regarded Metroidvanias in recent years, probably all time. You don't need to worry about some random goon thinking a mechanic is bad. I mean, poo poo, even I'm willing to grant that the game is pretty drat good, despite really disliking a core mechanic of the game.
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Jul 17, 2023 22:43
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Hollow Knight is my favorite metroidvania and I think the map system is dealable with but also don't think it adds a single thing to the game to make a player map marker take up a pin slot. I don't think it ruins the game or anything but it definitely is an annoyance more than furthering exploration in my opinion. I have very little sense of direction/"placement" in video games anyway so a player icon is mostly just eliminating the annoyance me having to center where I am every other time I open the map more than anything. If it's like that again in Hornet's game if it ever comes out I'm not gonna be furious or anything but I'll be a little disappointed.
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Jul 17, 2023 22:45
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guppy posted:It is fine to like or not like the map system in Hollow Knight. But words have meaning and for something to be "objectively" bad would mean that it is an immutable fact, not something that can be disagreed with, and that is clearly not the case as multiple people in this thread, myself included, like the way the map works in Hollow Knight. It is fine for you to not like it but that does not make it an objective fact. Game content can be objectively bad (at the thing it is doing) while being subjectively good (as a game element). Two examples spring to mind. The controls in QWOP are objectively bad. There are very few games that make moving the character remotely as difficult. But without the objectively bad controls, it stops being a game. The RYNO in the ratchet and clank series is objectively the best weapon in the game: you hold the trigger down and every enemy on screen dies immediately. If you could get it without completing all the sidequests required, it would lessen the game, but since it's always harder to get than it is to beat the game, it's fine. Most players who get it use it a few times then go back to the more fun weapons which are objectively worse weapons. The map in Hollow knight is objectively a worse mapping tool than most of its competition. It usually tells you less while requiring more effort. Whether or not it improves the game is subjective per person.
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Jul 17, 2023 22:48
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Something I don't like in a lot of metroidvania games is that there's no indication you're next to a save room. I like it when the games put a little marker up when you're 1 room away. Picking the wrong door in a room of 6 then getting sent back because of dying sucks when another door would've been a heal and save.
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Jul 17, 2023 22:51
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ilmucche posted:Something I don't like in a lot of metroidvania games is that there's no indication you're next to a save room. I like it when the games put a little marker up when you're 1 room away. Picking the wrong door in a room of 6 then getting sent back because of dying sucks when another door would've been a heal and save. My favorite for this is just don't have saverooms, put the save plinth smack dab in the way like Guacamelee does.
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Jul 17, 2023 22:52
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I think if you can define controls as both "objectively bad" and "necessary for the game to exist (or be good)" then that is a not very useful or reasonable use of that language. The controls in qwop are bad at letting you move your character easy. They are better than any other game at giving you control over four separate points of movement in a human pair of legs.
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Jul 17, 2023 22:54
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The map system isn't the only issue with Hollow Knight but Unreal_One said it best with "objectively a worse mapping tool than most of its competition. It usually tells you less while requiring more effort." I'd say the worst offender is the controls that play like Adams Family on the SNES with the incredible slow walk yet floaty jumps in a game that can't decide if it wants to be a weighty action platformer or something more akin to super meatboy. What I like about Aeterna Noctis is the developers DID recognize they wanted to be a precision platformer in a metroidvania style game so they provided incredibly tight controls and the player instant response to the buttons pressed. Blasphemous devs wanted a game that was a weighty action platformer with light precision platforming and so they ensured all the animations telegraphed when you could follow up specific actions (like when you would perform an air combo). Absolutely solid stuff by both devs that I hope Team Cherry learns from. I'm sure they will as they haven't rushed their latest project. EDIT: And to clarify, I'm glad Hollow Knight exists as it kicked off the Metroidvania revival. Metroidvania's are my favorite genre of games. I just wish it was more than a mediocre example of what the genre can offer. virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Jul 17, 2023 |
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Jul 17, 2023 23:32
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SlothfulCobra posted:I think it's interesting for games to feel the freedom to tinker around with base mechanics instead of feeling a need to stay married to conventions for the sake of comfort. Especially in a genre that is often defined by evoking horror at times. Causing the player a bit of discomfort from the lack of information in a new area or trying to bait them out into handicapping themselves for the sake of a little more fighting power are easy ways of doing that. It can also add to the feeling of triumph when you overcome these things. No one complains about Cornifer. He’s just the Super Metroid map room with a fun audio search mechanic. What people complain about is everything except Cornifer. Metroidvanias are games about mapping out a platforming maze, and Hollow Knight literally doesn’t let you map out the maze. It’s like Madden not displaying the score unless you play with less linemen.
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Jul 18, 2023 00:14
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Hollow Knight absolutely gives instant response, your movement has no momentum and there is no attempt to be "weighty" aside from knockback. If you let go of move in midair you stop moving, and can freely wiggle in either direction. It is also seriously nothing like Super Meat Boy. Martman fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Jul 18, 2023 |
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Jul 18, 2023 01:07
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There are a few goons I believe are from subtly different alternate universes. For instance one where Blasphemous was a visual novel and Hollow Knight was a Super Meatboy clone.
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Jul 18, 2023 01:16
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"The president has been kidnapped by ninjas. Are you a bad enough du-" "God, so much story, these cutscenes never end. GET TO THE GAMEPLAY!"
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Jul 18, 2023 01:23
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someone needs to make an automap mod for HK so that people stop spending 50 posts whining about it
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Jul 18, 2023 01:34
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Martman posted:Hollow Knight absolutely gives instant response, your movement has no momentum and there is no attempt to be "weighty" aside from knockback. If you let go of move in midair you stop moving, and can freely wiggle in either direction. Given this description, I genuinely doubt you’ve actually played Hollow Knight. Maybe you are thinking of a different game all together?
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Jul 18, 2023 01:53
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Given this description, I genuinely doubt you’ve actually played Hollow Knight. Maybe you are thinking of a different game all together? Aside from like... falling speed... Your character literally doesn't have momentum. If you press a direction your character moves that direction at a flat speed, if you stop pressing it they stop. It can feel unnatural to some players but it literally is about as precise as controls can be in terms of "the character does the thing exactly when I press the button."
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Jul 18, 2023 01:59
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This is a cool game essay thing which lets you play with different parameters of a platformer to figure out what feels good to you: https://gmtk.itch.io/platformer-toolkit Playing with it was helpful for me to sort of figure out what I liked or didn’t. virtualboyCOLOR posted:Given this description, I genuinely doubt you’ve actually played Hollow Knight. Maybe you are thinking of a different game all together? OP’s description is genuinely how HK’s controls work- it has no momentum. Maybe there’s something else about the controls which is making you perceive it to not be that? At least for me it was weird to adjust to something so responsive.
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Jul 18, 2023 02:12
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Not sure what to tell you. I’ve played through and beaten Hollow Knight around the time it came out due to both how it looked and how people raved about it. I kept searching for this amazing game people said was there all the way through to the end and it just didn’t exist. The poor controls, the unintuitive map system, the bland story (that thankfully didn’t get in the way), there just wasn’t anything magical I found. It was a thoroughly mediocre experience. I loaded up my save to see if there were recent patches that I may have missed but found the same poor controls with slow + floaty movement. If describing a game you like as “mediocre” is trolling, then know that is not my intent. I would recommend taking a step back though and realizing people have different opinions than you and they are not attacking you personally by expressing them. virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Jul 18, 2023 |
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Jul 18, 2023 02:23
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Gosh I wonder how your debate style got you banned from that forum 
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Jul 18, 2023 02:27
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Not sure what to tell you. I’ve played through and beaten Hollow Knight around the time it came out due to both how it looked and how people raved about it. I kept searching for this amazing game people said was there all the way through to the end and it just didn’t exist. The poor controls, the unintuitive map system, the bland story (that thankfully didn’t get in the way), there just wasn’t anything magical I found. It was a thoroughly mediocre experience.
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Jul 18, 2023 02:32
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we loving get it you don't like hollow knight, better post 50 more times about how you find it objectively mediocre this was a fun thread until you showed up and just started whining over and over
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Jul 18, 2023 02:33
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Yeah there's zero problems with momentum/weight in Hollow Knight. When doing the White Palace/Path of Pain I was using the charm that slowly regens health, so I spent time inbetween attempts clicking the stick back and forth/dashing as close to the ground as possible/trying to consistently hit the same spot when tapping A during a walljump, and everything about it is fine-tuned to a ridiculous degree. I still think there's problems with some of the precision that Path of Pain asks you to do toward the end, and there's genuinely problems with the walljumping and pogoing mechanics, but movement everywhere else besides those very specific sections felt very fluid and exact. You move laterally for as long as you hold the stick. You stay in the air as long as you press the jump button. You're constantly moving through the world at a brisk pace between dashes, pogos, and other movement mechanics. All of that can be sped up with charms that improve your mobility for one charm slot each, in case the game's still too slow for you. Hollow Knight has plenty of faults, but you're playing bizarro world Hollow Knight if the movement is "incredibly slow and floaty"
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Jul 18, 2023 02:34
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Anyway, I've been playing Aeterna Noctis on KNR's recommendation and its pretty good. The controls are nice and the platforming is a joy. I don't like that foreground elements get in the way a lot but it doesn't happen often. The maps are huge though. I only just got the 3rd power up and I've already explored what feels like the entirety of ground in Super Metroid. I'm not sure how many more power ups there are, or how many more areas, but it is pretty wild how big the game is.
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Jul 18, 2023 02:46
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:If describing a game you like as “mediocre” is trolling, then know that is not my intent. I would recommend taking a step back though and realizing people have different opinions than you and they are not attacking you personally by expressing them. You're not receiving hostility because people are treating you describing Hollow Knight as mediocre as a personal attack. You are receiving hostility because you are both presenting your opinion of the game's design choices as objective conclusions rather than choices that you didn't personally engage with, and because you are saying absolutely baffling poo poo like virtualboyCOLOR posted:Given this description, I genuinely doubt you’ve actually played Hollow Knight. Maybe you are thinking of a different game all together? when someone correctly points out that there is no momentum or weight like you're describing and the game does not remotely resemble Super Meat Boy in any sort of game feel.
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Jul 18, 2023 03:22
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Not sure what to tell you. I’ve played through and beaten Hollow Knight around the time it came out due to both how it looked and how people raved about it. I kept searching for this amazing game people said was there all the way through to the end and it just didn’t exist. The poor controls, the unintuitive map system, the bland story (that thankfully didn’t get in the way), there just wasn’t anything magical I found. It was a thoroughly mediocre experience. I want to give you a wedgie and shove you into a locker
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Jul 18, 2023 03:23
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Oh you know what bugs me about Hollow Knight and its responsiveness: performing a regular attack has a split second of animation where you're bringing your blade back to swing, but when you perform a downward slash it's instantaneous. This threw me off from the beginning of the game straight to the end, and performing a downward slash a few frames before I should've, expecting a moment of pause, has led to many a death.
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Jul 18, 2023 03:47
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I don't like games with high precision controls because they remind me I'm mortal and slowly dying.
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Jul 18, 2023 04:35
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I like Banjo-Tooie more than Banjo-Kazooie This is not a popular opinion, but if I ever wanted to share it, I wouldn't start by talking about how Banjo-Kazooie is objectively mid and anyone who likes it is deluded and wrong and I definitely wouldn't say that it controls like Quest 64, or quintuple down and restate this over and over for hours
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Jul 18, 2023 04:56
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whoa dude. no need to bring quest 64 into this, it was a civil discussion
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Jul 18, 2023 05:02
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Martman posted:whoa dude. no need to bring quest 64 into this, it was a civil discussion I played an hour or two of Quest64 over at a friends house. I liked it!
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Jul 18, 2023 05:27
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Serephina posted:I played an hour or two of Quest64 over at a friends house. I liked it! That's fortuitous then, because that first hour or two is exactly what the rest of the game is ho ho Honestly I wouldn't mind trying it again - when I first played it I was in a mindset that every RPG needed to be like an FF game - going between towns, lots of NPCs, big epic story etc, and the game didn't have that so it didn't go well with me. Plus I ran away from a lot of battles and was getting my poo poo kicked in by the time I was approaching the final dungeon.
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Jul 18, 2023 13:42
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Mode 7 posted:when someone correctly points out that there is no momentum or weight like you're describing and the game does not remotely resemble Super Meat Boy in any sort of game feel. White Palace
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Jul 18, 2023 17:43
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