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thunderspanks posted:He said "blockbuster" She, thanks.
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Aug 1, 2023 18:40
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Nobody specified financially successful. It’s probably a good foil given the hallucinatory/escapist/absurdist elements of both.
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Aug 1, 2023 18:44
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ones that were actually successful? no. last one was the female ghostbusters, and that was a trainwreck
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Aug 1, 2023 18:46
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Total Meatlove posted:Sucker Punch? lmao
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Aug 1, 2023 18:51
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you know, those two things women love and feel themselves represented in- Sucker Punch and Barbie.
dodgeblan fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Aug 1, 2023 |
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Aug 1, 2023 18:51
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Barbies the first blockbuster movie where patriarchy is specifically the main enemy
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Aug 1, 2023 18:57
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GateOfD posted:ones that were actually successful? no. I am apparently the only person in the world who loved the all-woman Ghostbusters.
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Aug 1, 2023 18:58
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Arsenic Lupin posted:It's not unusual for blockbusters to have "progressive" (whatever that means) views, but for a blockbuster to have in-your-face feminism? I don't remember the last time that happened. You may be able to cite a speech here, a speech there, but when was a blockbuster completely focused on the patriarchy and what it means and oh, yeah, good gags? Ok, so how are you defining terms like "feminism" and "patriarchy"? There are self-proclaimed feminists who are hardcore reactionaries (e.g. Rowling), and The Barbie Movie talks a lot about patriarchy, without much along the lines of anticapitalism. It's a blind spot. Even Sasha (at the start of the film, before her arc) adds a qualifier: complaining about sexualized capitalism. That's ambiguous, because "sexualized capitalism" can mean a capitalism supplemented by sexist ideology (e.g. where notions of sexual difference are used to naturalize inequality) and/or just the selling of sex (sexual imagery in advertising, etc.). Given the context, it seems that Sasha means the latter, but we'll never really know because the things she's expositing about aren't actually illustrated at all. It's exactly like how, through a Marxist lens, all workers are exploited under capitalism but the word "exploitation" is used more casually across the political spectrum to refer to some kind of specific moral degradation (e.g. a view that, unlike "normal women", women working in the porn industry are being exploited because they're made to do sex things). There's a big difference! In any case, removing the "sexualization" part and just calling Barbie a "symbol of capitalism" would remove a lot of that ambiguity. It would also, consequently, be far too directly anticapitalist for a Hollywood film. That's the kind of thing you can point out to do a critique of its ideology. Why is the focus exclusively on the idea-of-a-doll and not the actual process of making and selling the plastic toys? Actual plastic Barbie dolls are rarely onscreen in this film. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Aug 1, 2023 |
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Aug 1, 2023 19:13
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Hollismason posted:Barbies the first blockbuster movie where patriarchy is specifically the main enemy Captain Marvel as well but it's not quite so explicit
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Aug 1, 2023 19:34
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Hollismason posted:Barbies the first blockbuster movie where patriarchy is specifically the main enemy Unless that's a "Black Panther is the first ever black superhero movie" joke, this is an absolutely blinkered view. Fuckin' Titanic, man! Frozen! Jurassic Park, even! Star Wars Episode 7: The Force Awakens has a sexist villain. Like, this only makes sense if you're counting movies where a character turns to the camera and directly identifies the abstract concept of patriarchy as the villain.
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Aug 1, 2023 19:43
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Ok, so how are you defining terms like "feminism" and "patriarchy"? There are self-proclaimed feminists who are hardcore reactionaries (e.g. Rowling), and The Barbie Movie talks a lot about patriarchy, without much along the lines of anticapitalism. It's a blind spot. quote:Why is the focus exclusively on the idea-of-a-doll and not the actual process of making and selling the plastic toys? Actual plastic Barbie dolls are rarely onscreen in this film.
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Aug 1, 2023 19:51
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QuoProQuid posted:i remember sucker punch more for being extremely horny and garish more than any other qualities. That says more about you than the movie, not gonna lie
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Aug 1, 2023 20:20
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Bogus Adventure posted:That says more about you than the movie, not gonna lie don't want to turn this into the snyder thread, but i eagerly await the day when i am able enjoy one of zachary's movie instead of a bunch of straight men sitting me down and explaining to me what a deep and insightful skewering of nerd culture im watching and how all the male gaze-y shots are actually empowering
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Aug 1, 2023 20:45
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I came out of seeing Sucker Punch in theaters thinking of it as a noble failure, and my opinion has never wavered. Snyder was trying to make a hell of a movie. He failed, but respect for taking the swing. Killer soundtrack, though.
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Aug 1, 2023 20:53
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Sucker Punch rules I watched it twice for the fight scenes and how dark it goesSuperMechagodzilla posted:Like, this only makes sense if you're counting movies where a character turns to the camera and directly identifies the abstract concept of patriarchy as the villain.
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Aug 1, 2023 20:56
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Arsenic Lupin posted:It's not unusual for blockbusters to have "progressive" (whatever that means) views, but for a blockbuster to have in-your-face feminism? I don't remember the last time that happened. You may be able to cite a speech here, a speech there, but when was a blockbuster completely focused on the patriarchy and what it means and oh, yeah, good gags? Mad Max: Fury Road Thelma and Louise Alien/Aliens Hidden Figures Mulan (That's just off the top of my head.)
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Aug 1, 2023 20:57
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QuoProQuid posted:don't want to turn this into the snyder thread, but i eagerly await the day when i am able enjoy one of zachary's movie instead of a bunch of straight men sitting me down and explaining to me what a deep and insightful skewering of nerd culture im watching and how all the male gaze-y shots are actually empowering If my identity invalidates my opinion on the matter, then there are others who may qualify to explain why a movie about the girls who are betrayed and exploited by the law enforcement and foster care system (which is likely personal given that Snyder has adopted children) isn't meant to be titillating: https://www.themarysue.com/why-its-time-to-release-zack-snyders-sucker-punch/ quote:The negative backlash against Sucker Punch is especially peculiar considering that many accused the film of condoning the very subject matter that the film was critiquing. Snyder has repeatedly and consistently stated in interviews spanning from 2011 to 2021 that the film is an indictment of the misogynistic parts of geek culture that objectify women. In a post-Me-Too world, it is considerably easier to understand and articulate the subject matter of the film. Oscar Isaac’s bone chilling performance as the villainous Blue Jones can easily be seen as emblematic of the powerful studio executives, producers, CEOs, etc. that have been exposed as subjugating women (or people from other genders) through coercion or brute force. Blue Jones sees the women in the brothel as his possessions, and his obsession with trying to own and violate Babydoll is deeply unsettling. This one is a deeper dive https://www.thecompanion.app/zack-snyder-sucker-punch/
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Aug 1, 2023 20:57
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Bogus Adventure posted:If my identity invalidates my opinion on the matter, then there are others who may qualify to explain why a movie about the girls who are betrayed and exploited by the law enforcement and foster care system (which is likely personal given that Snyder has adopted children) isn't meant to be titillating
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Aug 1, 2023 21:02
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CapnAndy posted:Even the asylum level of reality is sexier than it should be. Uh, in what way is it sexy?
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Aug 1, 2023 21:10
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Uh, in what way is it sexy?
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Aug 1, 2023 21:11
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CapnAndy posted:Right, they're not meant to be, but they are. Even the asylum level of reality is sexier than it should be. (Also the movie isn't helped by its recursively fictional/allegorical structure and the actual plot being kinda nonsense.) This is "sexy"? I thought it was horrifying: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmXG0dDrNQc I'm not here to argue that one person's take is definitively correct and another's is wrong since the interpretation of art is inherently subjective. The movie I saw was about a girl who tries to save her younger sister from her stepfather's sexual abuse, and ends up being institutionalized in a corrupt system that takes advantage of the people they are meant to care for. She makes a plan to escape with her fellow prisoners, and uses her "dancing" or exploitation as a distraction so that others can get the items they need to escape the facility. In the end, she sacrifices herself so that one of her friends can escape. The plot is complicated and I'm not going to say that everything works perfectly, but I saw nothing titillating about the movie beyond pretty people being cast to play the parts. It's a horrifying gut punch. EDIT: Saw your above reply after I posted. I read the "fake asylum" where they are dancers as how the people in charge saw the girls, not how the girls saw themselves. 
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Aug 1, 2023 21:18
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Bogus Adventure posted:EDIT: Saw your above reply after I posted. I read the "fake asylum" where they are dancers as how the people in charge saw the girls, not how the girls saw themselves.
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Aug 1, 2023 21:29
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Another way of reading it is that she is pretending/imagining in order to compensate with an inherently traumatic experience. If anything is being romanticized, it's the adventures to get the key items needed for the escape. However, it's clear that we are not going to change each others' minds, and that's fine. I see the movie holding up fine despite critics railing against projected flaws that reveal their own prejudices and thought processes. Different things speak to different people, which is why the Barbie movie is an important and valuable cinematic achievement (especially for those who are not terminally online).
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Aug 1, 2023 21:42
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CapnAndy posted:Sorry, the fake asylum, where they're all dancer/escorts. Not the real one. But that goes back to what I just wrote earlier, about the conflation of exploitation as moral degradation and exploitation of workers under capitalism. Not to derail this too far, but Sucker Punch does have the same Matrix-like structure as Barbie, the Lacanian triad of Symbolic/Imaginary/Real. In the Barbie Movie, this aligns with the everyday symbolic reality of "the real world" (aka the matrix), the fantasy world of Barbieland, and the Real-reality of Mattel's entirely-offscreen overseas factories (with brutal working conditions, etc.). Illustrating this same logic, Sucker Punch is primarily about sex work, because that's the symbolic reality - the matrix - that the characters inhabit in their everyday lives, while the asylum is the underlying nightmare of brutal slavery and whatnot. Anyways, the problem of sex work isn't the sex part. It's everything around that, which creates these massive power imbalances that result in workers being endangered, underpaid, etc. It's like saying the problem of Nestle selling bottled water is the water part. Stop drinking water!
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Aug 1, 2023 21:46
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Cessna posted:Mad Max: Fury Road Thelma and Louise is about how much it sucks to be a woman in our society. Hidden Figures is about how much it sucks to be Black and a woman in our society. Mad Max: Fury Road is about how much it sucks to be a woman in a dystopian society. There is a big difference between being a movie with strong feminist themes and being a movie that has this speech. quote:"It is literally impossible to be a woman. You are so beautiful, and so smart, and it kills me that you don't think you're good enough. Like, we have to always be extraordinary, but somehow we're always doing it wrong. If the word "patriarchy" appears in any of the movies you list, I'm going to be very surprised. e: Fabulous interview with Gerwig herself, right before the movie opened. The interviewer asks some very intelligent questions. ee: The Barbie Movie isn't the holy grail of movies. It has significant flaws. But it is doing one thing (see above) that I have not seen a movie do in a long time, if ever. Arsenic Lupin fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Aug 1, 2023 |
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Aug 1, 2023 21:56
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Dates mine. I'm not sure I'm following what you're putting down here. Are you saying that the explicit nature of this speech renders feminism more substantially than any other blockbuster ever? Are you dismissing ideological critique entirely? SuperMechagodzilla posted:... This phrase of gender criticism, "sexualized capitalism" really captures the entirety of the film for me. When has capitalism not been drawn along sexualized lines; or in other words, what is non-sexualized capitalism? KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Aug 1, 2023 |
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Aug 1, 2023 22:25
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yes there is a difference between a movie that has clear subtext of the patriarchy being bad and sucking for women and a movie where the villain states he is 'doing patriarchy' and the hero looks into the camera and says 'hey have you ever noticed how hard it is to be a woman and maybe it shouldn't be so hard', doubly so if the second case is a huge mainstream success what you think about that difference is up to you and how much you think it's good when things are spelled out really blatantly
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Aug 1, 2023 22:33
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Arsenic Lupin posted:There is a big difference between being a movie with strong feminist themes and being a movie that has this speech. This seems to be a VERY fine distinction. Of course I can't find a movie with that speech - each movie has a unique script. And use of the term "patriarchy" in everyday non-academic speech is a relatively recent development. I don't want to get into nitpicking here or even argue. I just think that there have been strong feminist movies prior to Barbie even if they don't have the same speech or use a specific word. Sure, there aren't enough, and it's absurd that I have to go back to the past - but they do exist.
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Aug 1, 2023 22:35
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dodgeblan posted:yes there is a difference between a movie that has clear subtext of the patriarchy being bad and sucking for women and a movie where the villain states he is 'doing patriarchy' and the hero looks into the camera and says 'hey have you ever noticed how hard it is to be a woman and maybe it shouldn't be so hard', doubly so if the second case is a huge mainstream success You're leaving out how a film depicts patriarchy and feminism, which I think is pretty important for the discussion at large.
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Aug 1, 2023 22:47
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dodgeblan posted:I saw the movie, thought it was really funny and kinda heartwarming My (not very online) Wife saw the movie and said she enjoyed it until the speech, which was simply depressing to her
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Aug 1, 2023 22:51
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Unless that's a "Black Panther is the first ever black superhero movie" joke, this is an absolutely blinkered view. Thank you for mansplaining feminism
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Aug 1, 2023 22:59
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dodgeblan posted:what you think about that difference is up to you and how much you think it's good when things are spelled out really blatantly I have to admit, I was surprised by the extent to which I thought the movie did manage to make a virtue out of its bluntness. Usually I’m disgruntled when the subtext becomes text in a big grandstanding speech, largely because it punctures my smug self-satisfaction at comprehending media all by myself. The whole enterprise of “a barbie movie” is ethically compromised probably beyond any hope of redemption. Just going “gently caress it” and saying the stuff out loud, unambiguously, pretty much directly to camera, knowing you’ll reach a massive and appreciative audience, is maybe - maybe - a reasonable way of working around that fact. (Or maybe it’s nothing more than the high-profile co-opting of tumblr-style feminism for the purposes of corporate promotion.) But it’s also close to the vital centre of the movie for me, judging by the plain and pragmatic test of “what do I remember most clearly.”* It’s been a week and I’m not sure I could tell you what happens after the barbies get deprogrammed. They pass some, uh, legislation? Ken accepts himself? The execs do… something? Stereotypical barbie learns some kind of life lesson I guess, and goes to the “real world” to do… well, something. So the howl of discontent sticks in my mind; the band-aid applied, maybe not so much. *going by the same test, the true centre of the movie is simply the set-up: the idea of barbieland itself, and thoughts of death
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Aug 1, 2023 23:03
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From the last page of discussion it sounds like Mattel figured out the prototype in how to make a profitable movie where a character turns to the camera to lament the patriarchy - simply base the movie on a famous brand marketed to girls. I'm actually curious if anything similar will pop up in the future Mattel offerings or if Gertwig is the only one who can pull it off. trevorreznik fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Aug 1, 2023 |
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Aug 1, 2023 23:04
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The Barney movie had better be a deconstruction of industrialisaton's effect on indgineous wildlife 
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Aug 1, 2023 23:04
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Mad Max: Fury Road is about how much it sucks to be a woman in a dystopian society. I mean, dystopian fiction is literally always about the actual society that made it. I don't see why the word "patriarchy" needs to show up in Fury Road for it to be considered a searingly and overtly feminist commentary on real-world patriarchy. This is a film where the villain is a Mega Trump warlord with a private harem of child brides, a dairy farm of human women, and an army of teenage boys brainwashed by manosphere poo poo as religion. The inciting action is the female lead liberating the child brides after they paint slogans like "We are not things" all over the walls. It's hyperbolic, but so is the Mojo Dojo Casa House. Barbie is clearly speaking to a particular version of bourgeois feminism as it pertains to modern life under capitalism. But I...seriously doubt anyone missed the relevant feminist message of Mad Max: Fury Road circa 2015. trevorreznik posted:From the last page of discussion it sounds like Mattel figured out the prototype in how to make a movie where a character turns to the camera to lament the patriarchy - simply base the movie on a famous brand marketed to girls. If the Lena Dunham Polly Pocket movie happens, that's probably where they'd try it. Seems like there's some obvious subtext to mine from the premise of an innocuous and unthreatening tableau of feminine domesticity that's easily contained within your pocket. Sure hope Lena Dunham doesn't actually end up making it, though.... Xealot fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Aug 1, 2023 |
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Aug 1, 2023 23:06
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Lobster Henry posted:I have to admit, I was surprised by the extent to which I thought the movie did manage to make a virtue out of its bluntness. Usually I’m disgruntled when the subtext becomes text in a big grandstanding speech, largely because it punctures my smug self-satisfaction at comprehending media all by myself. Movies are written for the broadest of audiences, and when you have a message sometimes it is best to say it straight into the camera. Otherwise, people miss it for years. Starship Troopers is the one that always comes to mind because it went over the heads of many people who watched movies for a living, lmao: https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/starship-troopers-1997 Roger Ebert posted:"Starship Troopers'' is the most violent kiddie movie ever made. I call it a kiddie movie not to be insulting, but to be accurate: Its action, characters and values are pitched at 11-year-old science-fiction fans. That makes it true to its source. It's based on a novel for juveniles by Robert A. Heinlein. I read it to the point of memorization when I was in grade school. I have improved since then, but the story has not. Ebert was so close. This guy, though... https://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,987338,00.html Richard Schicksel posted:There is not, indeed, a base they fail to touch. The enemy is never particularized, so we never have a sympathetic thought for them. And scattered through the movie are online equivalents of those old-fashioned, pseudo-documentary short subjects designed to keep the home front heated up--cheerfully massed soldiers stretching as far as the lens can see, overheated descriptions of atrocious enemy behavior, that sort of thing. lmao Rarity posted:The Barney movie had better be a deconstruction of industrialisaton's effect on indgineous wildlife I'm really wondering what the Polly Pocket-Lena Dunham joint is going to be. e;fb
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Aug 1, 2023 23:44
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I hope Mighty Max gets a poignant musical number in the Polly Pocket movie too.
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Aug 2, 2023 00:11
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Rarity posted:Thank you for mansplaining feminism Will any woman always have the more truthful version of feminism than any man? To cite the Barbie movie's infatuation with the gender dynamics of the Supreme Court, where does Amy Coney Barrett fall along these lines?
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Aug 2, 2023 00:23
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also while you can debate whether smg really is a highly advanced chatbot that does not actually exist, they have said they don't identify themselves as male
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Aug 2, 2023 00:25
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The Uno movie should just be an adaptation of Trading Places
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Aug 2, 2023 00:29
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