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Nightwing is good but, aside from the art, I don't think it qualifies as some transcendental modern comics anything. The writing is perfectly fine and everything but the plot's pretty all over the place and messy with all the cameos and crossovers. It's closer to a bullet point list of fan service moments which, while gratifying, seem more like they're written for single pages to be posted on twitter than to form any real overarching character development or plot. It kind of reminds me of Manapul's Flash where the art carries a lot of the weight of the experience but most of the actual story developments come and go and you can't say much is different about the characters besides, what, Dick and Babs getting back together for the seventh time? He's got a cute dog? Rich now, but it's just his money instead of Bruce's? Sure. Two Tone Shoes fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Aug 4, 2023 |
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Aug 4, 2023 17:02
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He has a life outside of assaulting criminals, which goes a long way in the industry.
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Aug 4, 2023 17:51
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Nightwing also has a book where the character is actually happy and good stuff happens to him. Like you would think that's not something to praise or call out as different, but just look at how Marvel seemingly cannot do that with Spider-Man.
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Aug 4, 2023 18:09
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Gripweed posted:How can you have legacy members in the Suicide Squad? I thought the whole thing was that they died. I mean that's true on paper but a lot of them tend to stick around whether it's because of popularity or just because it's what they're known for. Like Deadshot who is pretty much always on the team (well I think he's currently dead but whatever, I'm sure when he gets revived eventually he'll be right back on the team) and ever since the New 52 Harley Quinn is on the team frequently (even if she's not on and is currently acting as an antihero). poo poo I kinda disproved my own point there with those examples but the real point is that there are some characters who are just on the squad more often than not, and so Taylor ditching them for a whole new team pissed some folks off. And yes I'm sure the fact that some were LGBTQ didn't help things with... certain readers.
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Aug 4, 2023 18:10
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Codependent Poster posted:Nightwing also has a book where the character is actually happy and good stuff happens to him. Like you would think that's not something to praise or call out as different, but just look at how Marvel seemingly cannot do that with Spider-Man. It is in fact what made me love the run. Since the midaughts or so, Spider-Man is just misery porn when it's not smashing action figures. ASM is a tedious book most of the time. I read it on MU occasionally, but I'd never buy an issue in a store anymore. Nightwing is what I want and (probably incorrectly) remember Spidey being in the 80s. Having a supporting cast be important seems like a dying art these days in Big 2 books imo. It made me start reading a lot more current DC books as well. The world sucks, my health sucks, I just want something fun that isn't also dumb and twee. Nightwing manages to be retro and modern at the same time, both in a good way. I like it in my late 40s and my 9 year old nephew likes it too. It's a hard target to hit a true all ages book.
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Aug 4, 2023 18:32
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Gaz-L posted:Why would they hate Taylor? I see his haters on Twitter, and it often comes down to Taylor writing scenes to be screenshotted and shown off online. I think he has a good ear for superhero dialog and slipping in personal/humorous moments really well that humanize these extravagant personalities. I don't begrudge him swinging for the influencer crowd to get eyeballs (as if comic book writers as a whole aren't attention-seeking divas just playing the game).
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Aug 4, 2023 19:03
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Gaz-L posted:Why would they hate Taylor? They find that he writes protagonists as flawless goodboys who never encounter meaningful resistance or ever have meaningful flaws to their character. Nightwing especially sticks in their craw—they’re big fans of the character and feel like Taylor writes him as completely without edge.
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Aug 4, 2023 19:51
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it's refreshing reading a book about a guy who's just genuinely nice and accomplishes things and beats the bad guys with his found family and friends and his gf and his cute three legged rescue pup. i wish more books were like it
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Aug 4, 2023 20:03
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Two Tone Shoes posted:It's closer to a bullet point list of fan service moments which, while gratifying, seem more like they're written for single pages to be posted on twitter than to form any real overarching character development or plot. yeah that sounds like a Tom Taylor book
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Aug 4, 2023 20:21
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site posted:it's refreshing reading a book about a guy who's just genuinely nice and accomplishes things and beats the bad guys with his found family and friends and his gf and his cute three legged rescue pup. i wish more books were like it Yes. I don’t always need edge in my books.
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Aug 4, 2023 20:52
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i'm gonna agree that the art on nightwing is doing a lot of the heavy lifting, cause i'm already ready to drop titans. i only started nightwing a handful of issues to go but i'll stick around as long as redondo does. i don't think it needs an edge either, i'm fine with happy nightwing and his hot girlfriend and cute dog but there does need to be some tension there? or better genre stories to go around it? otherwise there's better slice of life stuff out there.
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Aug 4, 2023 21:29
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I think the problem for them is twofold: first, the New Teen Titans and Nightwing himself are their favorite characters and seein their favorite characters done inadequately (for them) is really frustrating. Second, it’s part of what they feel is an industry wide problem of characters having all rough edges and interesting flaws sanded off in favor of making heroes more generically likable. It’s a recurring problem with Jon Kent, too—guy’s a seventeen year old who constantly moralizes and lectures his enemies and Taylor’s stories tend to treat him as morally correct for doing so. The moralizing isn’t a problem in the abstract, but having a teen character always have The Right Politics can get really grating. Nobody had good politics as a teen
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Aug 4, 2023 23:23
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thetoughestbean posted:Second, it’s part of what they feel is an industry wide problem of characters having all rough edges and interesting flaws sanded off in favor of making heroes more generically likable. i'm a marvel girl, but have been reading nightwing, poison ivy, and batgirls (rip). i must be reading the wrong books because one of the reasons nightwing is so out of the norm for me is that this isn't true for the books i read at all. wonder if this is a big dc title thing lol site fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Aug 4, 2023 |
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Aug 4, 2023 23:45
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thetoughestbean posted:I think the problem for them is twofold: first, the New Teen Titans and Nightwing himself are their favorite characters and seein their favorite characters done inadequately (for them) is really frustrating. Second, it’s part of what they feel is an industry wide problem of characters having all rough edges and interesting flaws sanded off in favor of making heroes more generically likable. I dunno man, the kids today seem to as a whole be gettin’ it. It’s heartening.
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Aug 4, 2023 23:48
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People complain about drama and bad things happening to characters but the truth of the matter is a book where everyone's happy and gets along perfectly and nothing really bad happens gets really gets dull pretty quick. You can only put the onus of the drama on the villain of the week so much.
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Aug 4, 2023 23:51
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I agree that it is nice to have a book where a character grows or has a story arc or makes mistakes and learns from them (actually that is a very important thing to have) it doesn't mean that the book has to be dour or edgy or misery porn.
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Aug 5, 2023 00:18
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Madkal posted:I agree that it is nice to have a book where a character grows or has a story arc or makes mistakes and learns from them (actually that is a very important thing to have) it doesn't mean that the book has to be dour or edgy or misery porn. I don’t think that’s what they want at all, either! site posted:i'm a marvel girl, but have been reading nightwing, poison ivy, and batgirls (rip). i must be reading the wrong books because one of the reasons nightwing is so out of the norm for me is that this isn't true for the books i read at all. wonder if this is a big dc title thing lol I’d say Poison Ivy is a great example of a character whose rough edges have been smoothed down, unless she’s back to mind controlling powerful men so she can live in the lap of luxury with little care for others
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Aug 5, 2023 02:59
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i mean the story so far has literally been about her going around murdering rich people even though she's pretending she's better than that for harley so i guess we must have different definitions of smoothing down rough edges
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Aug 5, 2023 03:18
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I guess it's a smoothing down from when she was going to kill everybody on her cross-country adventure, but yeah not by much if she's still killing selectively
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Aug 5, 2023 03:22
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site posted:i mean the story so far has literally been about her going around murdering rich people even though she's pretending she's better than that for harley so i guess we must have different definitions of smoothing down rough edges lol, I probably should’ve been more familiar with the current series. I’m definitely familiar with her fans. who act like she’s completely morally justified for her actions, but that’s probably just Twitter being a cesspool
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Aug 5, 2023 03:22
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Poison Ivy is bonkers right now. Is she a serial killer eco terrorist? Or a badass drifter Great Value lady Jack Reacher with a heart of gold who is irresistible to all the babes she rescues? Or is all that just in the background while she longs melodramatically for Harley while monologuing about plant life mirrors her [lack of] personal growth(?) Doesn't matter! The writer doesn't know what the hell is going on either. I like it anyway. A book can be a mess and a lot of fun at the same time. The Batgirls series that ended recently was like that. Eco terrorist Jack Reacher Ivy rules.
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Aug 5, 2023 03:28
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Yeah, I really like Ivy. And it kinda is all over the place, but I think portraying Ivy that way is a lot more true to the concept of "a person who has been genocidal supervillain forever is having a crisis of conscience because her gf is reforming" than what Harley (the book) has been doing with having her hyenas literally just flat out talking to her telling her the universe has decided she's now a Batman level hero. Not a fan of Ivy constantly cheating on Harley though
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Aug 5, 2023 03:53
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Oracle posted:I dunno man, the kids today seem to as a whole be gettin’ it. It’s heartening. The kids are alright. I’get been saying I’d love to read a Legion of Super Heroes by a zoomer. Tom Taylor doesn’t always have great plots, but I’ll read him having characters talk to each other all day. It’s what they call a vibe. What he’s doing with the Titans is so much better than the bullshit they’ve done with the Justice League for the last so many years.
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Aug 5, 2023 04:01
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site posted:Not a fan of Ivy constantly cheating on Harley though I can much more easily buy a heroic Ivy before I can buy a monogamous Ivy
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Aug 5, 2023 04:06
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site posted:Not a fan of Ivy constantly cheating on Harley though It probably my favorite part of the book. It is way more interesting friction than anything you could ever dream about seeing in say Spider-Man. The fact that she thinks it is probably fine, but not fine enough to actually bring up is great. I have no reason to expect Poison Ivy, mass murdering terrorist, to be perfectly moral and right just because she is in a relationship. Ivy/Harley reads so much better than Mystique/Destiny. Both are good, but one is leagues more interesting.
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Aug 5, 2023 04:08
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Personally I think the show is doing their relationship much better than the comic. But I've been frustrated with their comic relationship for a long time, because in the comic they can never actually be together! Harley can show up in one issue of Ivy, Ivy can show up in one issue of Harley. That's it, they can't just have an Harley and Ivy comic for the main universe (there is of course the cartoon tie-in comic which is also good). And I don't agree with the "friction" idea because there is no friction. Harley never cheats on Ivy in her book, but pines for her in every issue. Ivy cheats on Harley in her book several times and just waves it away as this is a bad thing but Harley would understand. They never talk about it when they meet up in either book. Harley doesn't know that Ivy has been sleeping with other women. Ivy just does it and then afterwards there are no repercussions, she doesn't have any internal crisis over what she did (again). Friction would imply that what Ivy is doing is causing some conflict for either or both of them but there is none. And tbh it just makes Ivy look like a lovely person because Harley is committing and Ivy doesn't even try site fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Aug 5, 2023 |
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Aug 5, 2023 04:18
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Hatley/Ivy seem like every other polyamorous sapphic couple who met in a mental hospital I've known.
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Aug 5, 2023 04:37
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World Princess posted:Hatley/Ivy seem like every other polyamorous sapphic couple who met in a mental hospital I've known. Ivy has honestly transformed enormously as a character since Harley entered the comics and in some ways it's felt weirdly domesticating (I have not yet read the recent ongoing) and in other ways it's like, well of course coming out will change you.
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Aug 5, 2023 05:07
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I saw the ending of Jon Kent as basically him saying "Dad, you can be better" I don't think it needed a slap fight between two powered dudes.
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Aug 5, 2023 07:16
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On the one hand it certainly tracks that Jon wasn't inclined to punch an alternate version of his dad but also, like, wasn't that what he was originally going to do to Ultraman? This Injustice stuff did feel a little underwhelming, but it's also definitely an exception to Taylor's norm; everything else he's been writing is still very good. What happened to the electric blue Jon thing anyway? I literally can't remember if it ended up happening.
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Aug 5, 2023 08:07
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Blockhouse posted:People complain about drama and bad things happening to characters but the truth of the matter is a book where everyone's happy and gets along perfectly and nothing really bad happens gets really gets dull pretty quick. You can only put the onus of the drama on the villain of the week so much. This usually is about romances and the idea there can't be happy couples sucks. Putting Dick and Barbara together and keeping them in a happy, healthy relationship is one of the best parts of the book. There doesn't need to be drama to write good relationships.
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Aug 5, 2023 08:26
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BrianWilly posted:On the one hand it certainly tracks that Jon wasn't inclined to punch an alternate version of his dad but also, like, wasn't that what he was originally going to do to Ultraman? Ultraman wasn't an alternate universe Clark Kent raised by two sweet Kansas farmers though, right? I actually tried googling this and can't figure out what the comics continuity is for him and am going off knowledge from the animated film of Crisis on Two Earths.
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Aug 5, 2023 08:34
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Codependent Poster posted:This usually is about romances and the idea there can't be happy couples sucks. Putting Dick and Barbara together and keeping them in a happy, healthy relationship is one of the best parts of the book. There doesn't need to be drama to write good relationships. At a point some level of at least mild relationship drama has to happen because it stops being interesting, and I don't mean breaking them up or killing them off but something has to happen because otherwise why are you featuring it in a story? Like there's happy couples and then the idea of a relationship where there's zero fiction at all and that just does not exist.
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Aug 5, 2023 10:18
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Blockhouse posted:At a point some level of at least mild relationship drama has to happen because it stops being interesting, and I don't mean breaking them up or killing them off but something has to happen because otherwise why are you featuring it in a story? Yeah, there's a lot of bad F4 comics where there's drama in Reed Richard's and Sue Storm's relationship is in tension, but there's also a lot of good comics about it too. Same with Peter Parker and Mary Jane before the Devil erased their marriage. I don't know DC as well, but I assume there's good stories where Clark and Lois aren't getting along but still love each other.
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Aug 5, 2023 10:34
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Yeah the period where Peter and MJ's relationship was good and worked is called "The JMS run" It was never good before that, because of either the no friction thing or MJ getting segmented off into lame soap opera plots that had nothing to do with Spider-Man poo poo because writers didn't know what to do with her If you binge read 90's Spider-Man comics take a shot every time MJ's only involvement in the story is Peter is recapping a previous issue's events to her and you won't live through the Clone Saga.
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Aug 5, 2023 11:58
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Air Skwirl posted:I don't know DC as well, but I assume there's good stories where Clark and Lois aren't getting along but still love each other. There was a very good period in the mid 90s where I forget the inciting incident but Lois gives him her engagement ring back. She is angry at him for being over protective and not letting her accomplish things on her own and that getting married would make her lose her individuality. It’s clear they still love each other but she’s in denial and wants space. Eventually in a great split issue between the two of them (Superman 118), Lois realizes she still loves him and sees evidence in the world for how much good Clark does and the next issue is the Wedding Special. It isn’t really “iconic” in the same way in modern times you have superstar writers coming and going, but boy do I love love love the whole Triangle Numbering era.
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Aug 5, 2023 16:21
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Blockhouse posted:At a point some level of at least mild relationship drama has to happen because it stops being interesting, and I don't mean breaking them up or killing them off but something has to happen because otherwise why are you featuring it in a story? You don't need any relationship drama. You can have them face challenges together as a couple. That's even more interesting than couples fighting or some love triangle or something. Like with Dick and Barbara, it was a lot of fun to see her tease him for his past flings instead of get mad or jealous.
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Aug 5, 2023 16:39
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coffee shop au fanfic ah tom taylor
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Aug 5, 2023 18:04
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i admittedly am not a hardcore dc reader, but this a a couple that has been on and off again and had relationship troubles in the past for several decades at the point right? this is a point where they've reconciled everything and decided to actually make it work finally after everything behind them?
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Aug 5, 2023 18:36
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BrianWilly posted:What happened to the electric blue Jon thing anyway? I literally can't remember if it ended up happening. It seems like he just gets some sort of temporary power boost when he gets real pissed off at first but then near the end he basically gets it to work whenever he wants it to when he goes to space to charge up on sunlight. So I guess it's like some kind of video game overcharge now? I predict that much like that time Geoff Johns gave Superman that solar flare power, it won't be showing up much...
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