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Android Apocalypse posted:Robocop 2 was the 1st R-rated movie I saw in the theater, so it's a touchstone film for me. Maybe that's why I find Robocop to be unsubtle, because my brain has TMBG Purple Toupee mashed the two movies together. I was 14 or 15 when I saw Starship Troopers and didn't find anything unsubtle about it. But I'd also read the book first and I think that highlighted how heavy handed the movie was. I think my first r rated was Johnny Mnemonic, heh. Thanks alcoholic divorcee weekend dad. AvesPKS fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Aug 7, 2023 |
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Aug 7, 2023 21:18
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The book is objectively pro-fascist, and I'll take my answer offline, thanks.
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Aug 7, 2023 21:35
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Man this thread has had some gems, from male-coded 70mm to "for post-structuralists, it is beyond the limits of human capacity to theorize categorically" (categorization has been at the heart of structuralist/post-structuralist thought for a hundred years from Lévy-Bruhl to Levi-Strauss to Deleuze and Descola look mom I know french authors too!) Bogus Adventure posted:Yeah, I linked a couple reviews up (including Ebert's, lol) where they watched the film and say, "Wow, this is a really dangerous idea. It's a shame it wasn't critically analyzed in this very sincere and not-at-all-satirical film." And the only reason I even included this diversion is just because of people saying Gloria's speech probably didn't have to be said out loud. The problem with not doing that is you're going to have a lot of the audience watch the film without ever landing on the message because there are people who just watch movies to pass the time and don't think about them. Sometimes it's best to err on being too direct than relying on the audience to pick up an underlying message. Honestly I sympathize but you can't control interpretation (which isn't to say that all interpretations are equally valid). Neo-nazis like American History X. There are multiple videos of fascists and alt-right types belting out Tomorrow Belongs to Me. Look at Warhammer 40k, which has gotten absurdly explicit that it is satire (to the point of releasing two press releases outright stating that it is a satire of fascism) and yet there still is a fash segment of it's fanbase who still interprets it as an endorsement. This is something the Chapo's have said when talking about Verhoeven, you always are gonna run the risk of making something that can be seen as fascist propaganda (A modest proposal etc). At some point I think you just have to make the movie/artifact you want to make and accept that once the viewer is included it's out of your hands
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Aug 7, 2023 21:35
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Some movies are always fun to imagine the post-script after the fact, like it's endlessly amusing to imagine stuff like (spoilers for this movie to be clear because the topic is starting to broaden)Barbara hanging out in a bar a year or two later ranking Saw movies with her friends
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Aug 7, 2023 21:46
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My friends bailed on seeing Barbie today. That is my Barbie news for the day.
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Aug 7, 2023 21:55
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Concerning the 70mm discussion... Barbie was shot entirely with the Arri Alexa 65, which has the same size sensor as standard 65mm film and captures about 6.5K of horizontal pixels (roughly 2.4x the resolution of a 4K DCP). Saw this a second time while on shrooms, this really has amazing rewatch value.
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Aug 8, 2023 04:19
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Also saw this for the 2nd time (at the Empirical Theater in OMSI*) & caught a couple things: -The building that can be see me to the right of Warner Brothers Discovery is General Motors. Also explains why all the cars are Chevrolets (including Barbie's convertible). -When Barbie realizes her memories from the real world was Gloria's during her rescue & subsequent car chase, Sasha interrupts by saying "We're you two just shining right now?" It's a reference to that other Warner Bros. movie that had people sharing memories telepathically.** Allan still is my favorite character in the movie. I did notice that when the Barbies were deprogrammimg the brainwashed ones Allan tries going over a fence, which he can't. Apparently men in the movie can't vault over structures. I was wrong thinking the construction workers were from the real world. They were also Ken's. Also Allan referencing the other Allan's that escaped to The Real World has to be NSYNC, which when he said "even that one" he's referencing Justin Timberlake. Then I remembered NSYNC had this video… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQMlWwIXg3M  *I was not on shrooms **of course I'm talking about Space Jam: A New Legacy. 
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Aug 8, 2023 06:05
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I'm pretty sure Barbie driving a pink Corvette predates the branding deal GM made for this movie.
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Aug 8, 2023 07:30
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Just saw this, movie funny The Big Speech was very Feminism 101 but that didn't really bother me since the plot of the movie is literally about introducing feminism to a sheltered population with no real world experience of it (and hopefully the movie manages to do the same in real life.) It's well delivered and does a lot to set up the catharsis of Barbie's speech to Ken (which, since the plight of the Kens is a funhouse mirror version of the struggle of women in the real world, is also about the struggle of women) and Ruth's speech to Barbie, which was a surprisingly solid punch at a point in the movie when I was expecting a trite wrap-up. It's a very corporate product and obviously it's not going to actually be subversive but I'm relieved they gave it as much wiggle room as they did, because the message could have been a hell of a lot worse.
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Aug 8, 2023 16:46
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Last night's viewing had a lot more kids (tween-age & younger) than when I saw it opening night. After the film my friends waiting in line for the bathroom overheard some girls talking about it. Consensus was generally positive (one did say it was boring) and Gloria's speech was pretty enlightening. I think the kids will be all right.
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Aug 8, 2023 17:51
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notenome posted:Man this thread has had some gems, from male-coded 70mm to "for post-structuralists, it is beyond the limits of human capacity to theorize categorically" (categorization has been at the heart of structuralist/post-structuralist thought for a hundred years from Lévy-Bruhl to Levi-Strauss to Deleuze and Descola look mom I know french authors too!) I'm referring to the mode of thinking absolute categories that fell out of favor in the 20th century. Following Derrida's maxim that "There's no outside-text", Butler utilizes the categories of male and female in her theory, but sees them as nothing but discursive fictions, and as such can be the site of revolution (Which I contend is the narrative of Barbie): this is in direct opposition to the "heteronormative binarism" of psychoanalysis's sexual categories. Consequently, Marx's universal category of "Class Struggle" has no trouble explaining Caitlyn Jenner's position as a conservative trans-woman. KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Aug 9, 2023 |
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Aug 8, 2023 21:30
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finally saw this and I liked it but man, there's waaaaay too much ken in it. the final emotional conversation featuring barbie being like "well I guess I didn't really do much in this movie" probably should have been a cue.
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Aug 9, 2023 20:38
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Saw this last night with my wife. I'd hoped my pre-judgement was wrong, and as a 40-yr old white cishet dude I know I'm not exactly the target audience, but I didn't care for this at all. There were a couple seeds of something there with the perfect Barbieland sets, but all the scenes in the real world were awful and the whole movie had a weird spiteful tone. Sort of too adult to be a kids move, too childish to be an adults movie. Surprised to not see more hate for the 3 minute car commercial in middle of the film. Gloria's daughter was the most obnoxious character I've seen onscreen in a long time, awful to her mother, awful to our protagonist, but then completely flipping to "gee golly everyone, we've got to save Barbie!" with no impetuous. The fact that it ended with Barbie saying "I'm here to see my gynecologist" 😆 what the gently caress? Like...is that why she wanted to be real? So she could...have a vagina? Maybe it's because I'm a dude but I found Ken's arc of "downtrodden and ignored, goes to real world feels accepted, tries to bring that feeling back to Barbieland but feels unfulfilled, then realises he'll be happiest being himself" much more compelling than Barbie's "a struggling mom is drawing hosed up Barbies because her horrid daughter is perpetually unpleasant so Barbie accidently feels emotions, goes to the real world and hates it, realises she's actually a fascist who ruined young women's lives, comes back to Barbieland and hates what it's become, becomes depressed, changes Barbieland back to the way it was so they can uphold the unattainable perfection they once had, but decides she wants to be a real girl so she can go back to the real world and get a pap smear" 😆 The big speech got a bunch of cheers in our theater. I'm pleased that people related to it and I have no issues with the content whatsoever. But if in Oppenheimer a character had suddenly said "Let me tell you the problem with hubris and the myth of the Great Man in history..." and monologues for 5 minutes, people would have lol'd. Ironically, it felt like...womansplaining to men what it is to be a woman? Overall, I would have preferred if the whole movie was set in Barbieland and was a musical. I feel like all the same messages and topics could have been covered without having Will Ferrell scenery chewing and Gloria fast and furiousing with her GM. For me, the whole "address the reality of Barbie" was done much more intelligently and succinctly with the Malibu Stacy episode of The Simpsons. https://youtu.be/gd7LPidpFUg I don't know, I've probably completely missed the point of a lot of it. Mourning Due fucked around with this message at 07:16 on Aug 12, 2023 |
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Aug 12, 2023 07:14
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Yeah, probably.
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Aug 12, 2023 07:23
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I want to frame this post
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Aug 12, 2023 08:16
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Morning doo doo
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Aug 12, 2023 08:19
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This thread loving delivers
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Aug 12, 2023 08:23
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Ok Mr Shapiro, but please place your order and move to the next window...
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Aug 12, 2023 08:37
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I do feel the gynecologist joke at the end misses the mark. It’s a joke about how Barbie dolls don’t have genitals, yes. But in what’s already a pretty cis movie the throwaway line reeks of gender essentialism.
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Aug 12, 2023 09:20
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Vegetable posted:I do feel the gynecologist joke at the end misses the mark. It’s a joke about how Barbie dolls don’t have genitals, yes. But in what’s already a pretty cis movie the throwaway line reeks of gender essentialism. It crossed my mind too, but I asked my trans roommate and they thought it was no big deal
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Aug 12, 2023 09:25
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Yeah it's a joke about 'look she's got an interview for an important job lol nope', it's no biggie
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Aug 12, 2023 09:26
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Vegetable posted:I do feel the gynecologist joke at the end misses the mark. It’s a joke about how Barbie dolls don’t have genitals, yes. But in what’s already a pretty cis movie the throwaway line reeks of gender essentialism. EDIT: my wife said "proctologist! Everybody has an rear end in a top hat - much like an opinion"
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Aug 12, 2023 09:29
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Simply Simon posted:Do you think it would have been funnier if the dad took her to a urologist instead
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Aug 12, 2023 09:33
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I just googled and one of the Barbie side kicks is a transwoman which is nice. The text is cishet as hell but it’s nice that Gerwig was able to make that happen in a major studio movie.
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Aug 12, 2023 09:39
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The whole joke is about Barbie's famous lack of genitals being subverted. You're thinking into it way too hard.
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Aug 12, 2023 09:39
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The whole joke is about Barbie's famous lack of genitals being subverted. You're thinking into it way too hard. Also just how absolutely fuckin' stoked she is to go to a gynecologist, which I have on good authority stands in contrast to the typical level of excitement that such a visit would engender to the point of comedic dissonance. And also speaks to the "here's yet another loving thing that women need to deal with" while also being thematically consistent with the whole "if you want to be real rather than just a doll/archetype you're going to have to deal with the fact that being human is often messy and painful".
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Aug 12, 2023 11:51
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The fact that the stereotypical icon of femininity explicitly has no vagina is pretty cool actually. They are not actually required for it! Maybe the end undermines it a little bit but you could just look at it as ok now she is a human and as a human she happens to have a vagina. The void conversation really reminded me of the types of conversations that happen when someone realises they're trans. The whole you don't need permission, it's not that you want to be this, you already are.
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Aug 12, 2023 12:55
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And that is actually a very trans thing to deal with the messy realities of biology rather than the elaborate kayfabe of barely a at best having a physical existence that patriarchy demands.
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Aug 12, 2023 12:59
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Rarity posted:I want to frame this post 😆 Somehow, I feel this is not meant to be complimentary. Was able to spend time properly discussing the film with my wife this afternoon, who really liked it and is much better at cultural criticism than I am. Her reading of it makes me like it more. I told her what I said here RE not really understanding Stereotypical Barbie's journey. She said (I'm paraphrasing & butchering her thoughts) it could be read as mirroring the coming-of-age of the traditional modern Barbie consumer, or young women in general. Starts out mirroring youth. Being told "women are amazing and they can achieve anything!" Then a sort of puberty/harsh reality period, when she gets to the real world. Start being sexualised. Starts being blamed by the daughter for being a fascist. Men treat her as an object, other women hate her. Gets depressed. Wants to go back to the perfect world, but would have to get back in the box (even I got the metaphor of conforming here). Tries going back to the perfect world, but it's not possible, once you have the knowledge you gain through maturity you can't go back to innocence. Hears all of Gloria's "duality of being a woman" speech & understands the system is rigged but there are good women striving away inside of it. So the end is her accepting the reality of being a grown women, with all its indignities and frustrations. Going to the gyno sucks, but she's facing it with a brave face because it's part of being a woman. I still definitely feel that the film was disjointed, & all the themes of the real world scenes could have been better handled by showing all of Barbieland growing rather than just our main character. But I do feel like I have a much better understanding of Stereotypical Barbie's journey now, especially her ending.
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Aug 12, 2023 14:44
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Vegetable posted:I just googled and one of the Barbie side kicks is a transwoman which is nice. The text is cishet as hell but it’s nice that Gerwig was able to make that happen in a major studio movie. Did you not notice that her voice was so much deeper than your manly squeaking?
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Aug 12, 2023 15:56
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Cojawfee posted:Did you not notice that her voice was so much deeper than your manly squeaking? I didn’t notice until the second time I saw it, after I found out she was trans
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Aug 12, 2023 15:58
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Aren't these readings all too textual anyway? Isn't this movie actually an allegory for the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968? This is CD, right?
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Aug 12, 2023 18:45
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AvesPKS posted:Aren't these readings all too textual anyway? Isn't this movie actually an allegory for the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968? This is CD, right? got 'em
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Aug 12, 2023 23:19
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Lt. Danger posted:got 'em I just miss the Transformers thread
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Aug 13, 2023 00:04
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AvesPKS posted:I just miss the Transformers thread It's still going!
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Aug 13, 2023 00:12
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Tankbuster posted:wasn't the genius of Starship troopers that the anglophone real world bent into it's reality after 9/11 happened? Yeah, as someone that was old enough to see all of this happening in real time... Most people saw Starship Troopers as a dumb movie, and even those that saw the satire still said it was over the top. You can date archived reviews and see this for yourself. Then 9-11 happened, and the world literally turned into Starship Troopers completely and you got all the revisionist and new takes that praise it. Very few people accepted/understood it correctly. I "got it" due to being on the outskirts of American society due to race, but most people were still fully bought in then to the goodness of people. Its kind of like how Covid got people (myself included) to retract their complaints about Dawn of the Dead being too contrived with how people reacted in the film to situations.
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Aug 13, 2023 00:27
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Darko posted:Then 9-11 happened, and the world literally turned into Starship Troopers completely and you got all the revisionist and new takes that praise it. Very few people accepted/understood it correctly. I "got it" due to being on the outskirts of American society due to race, but most people were still fully bought in then to the goodness of people.
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Aug 13, 2023 00:33
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Starship Troopers came up in a few places recently and I think part of why it aged so terrifyingly well is because as well as predicting post-9/11 (or maybe just accurately showing that America would react in the worst ways possible to an actual disaster) it also doesn't just stick to going 'Boy, fascists sure are bad' but predicts rainbow capitalism and its false promises as well, with the whole deal that the only way to get any say in the government is to enter a process of being indoctrinated and trained to be an obedient instrument of state violence, and anyone who still maintains dissident ideas after that and/or is part of an unwanted group can just be dropped right on the front lines. Also that it's a system constitutionally incapable of actually responding to real problems, because it's entirely built around deflecting attention from actual complaints onto scapegoats while defending the ruling class. Hence the movie gets rid of the power armour and wunderwaften to just have the light infantry be expendable spotters for the presumed total air dominance, privatisation has rotted away even the capacity to wage war. Also the implication that the 'psychics' are glorified palm readers. Ferrinus posted:It's easy to square the circle on Starship Troopers: neat, tidy, law-and-order liberalism is fascism. Wild-eyed dictators are optional, while the carceral and military apparatuses staunchly upholding free markets aren't. Which fittingly came up around the Supreme Court decision banning affirmative action college admissions specifically having an exception for West Point.
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Aug 13, 2023 00:46
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the more i think about it the funnier (derogatory) the birkenstocks are to me. like it can't just be an ugly flip-flop or generic sensible sneaker, it must be an expensive, famous and allegedly "ugly" sandal (the kind of brand that gets major high-end fashion collaborations constantly because there's eternal money in "rediscovering" an "ugly" but well-established brand). self-discovery via consumerism. it breaks into the universe of the film generally and barbieland specifically in a very weird way because none of barbie's iconic outfits in the movie can actually be branded or anything (it's not a choice between a birkenstock and a manolo or something), because all of it has to be mattel IP first and foremost, and also maybe because it makes sense to hold off on tying yourself to any one fashion brand when you can do like 30 different collabs with the movie launch. also a key part of the winking "there will be just enough vaguely queer-related imagery and symbols for you to latch onto in this movie if you want to make that reading vaguely viable despite it not cohering very well with the movie and being fully deniable" approach the film takes, along with closer to fine i don't have any deeper more incisive point here, just congrats to whatever internal group at birkenstock got to accept the call from WB legal and take ownership of that deal. similarly congrats to the 2023 chevy trailblazer, a sensible car that a cool mom could use to do cool driving stunts (don't worry, she learned it from a boy) or drop her daughter off at school in Valentin fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Aug 13, 2023 |
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Aug 13, 2023 00:59
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Not getting that Starship Troopers is satirical is the product of either being young enough that you haven't developed the capacity to examine the media you consume at all, or of being very stupid. There is a scene where a recruitment officer tells the protagonists as they are signing up that "The mobile Infantry made me the man I am today", and then turns in his chair, revealing that he is missing three limbs. The camera loving lingers on it for gently caress's sake. How you can see that and not wonder if anything else you are watching should perhaps be viewed through the lens of satire is completely beyond me.
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Aug 13, 2023 01:22
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