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Ham Equity posted:EVs are going to loving murder us. It's just more car infrastructure: more parking that won't be used exclusively by EVs, more roads, stroads, and freeways that won't be used exclusively by EVs, more tires that require more oil that spew out more rubber and microplastics, more brake pads doing the same, more minerals needing to be mined out of the earth that requires yet more fossil fuels, and more chemicals being used in the manufacturing that get dumped back into the ecosystem. The city of Hamilton, Ontario was considering adding lanes to an expressway. One of the city councillors argued that the adoption of electric cars meant that growth and sprawl were perfectly ok now. quote:Just a few years ago, such an expansion of the four-lane expressway smacked of 1950s thinking, but the promise of electric vehicles has shifted the transportation landscape, Coun. Sam Merulla says.
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Aug 21, 2023 17:22
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Cugel the Clever posted:Eh, I also think the ire heaped upon Frey is overdone, but I think the city council drove the upzoning and deserves that credit. Haven't been in tune with Minneapolis politics for a few years though, so maybe you're thinking of subsequent developments I might have missed? Sorry the delayed response. Frey had always been extremely supportive of upzoning/parking minimums/etc in the 2040 plan, still had a say in it when passed (signed the bill), and I believe he had started the initial work on it while he was a councilmember as well. But in addition to this, there has been a lot of other things that Frey has been simultaneously been pushing. Things such as
Hopefully all of this helps you get a better view of what I meant (while I acknowledge that some of this might be slightly beyond the scope of that linked Bloomberg article). Obviously, the credit is far from only his as there are lots of factors and contributors to our success. But I think he has been a huge factor in our success as well. Kalit fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Aug 21, 2023 |
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Aug 21, 2023 17:25
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Fornax Disaster posted:The city of Hamilton, Ontario was considering adding lanes to an expressway. One of the city councillors argued that the adoption of electric cars meant that growth and sprawl were perfectly ok now. This is funny, because the self-driving car people insist that the adoption of self-driving will mean less car infrastructure. We need a unified theory of tech-induced absolution
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Aug 21, 2023 17:33
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Self driving cars can lead to more car sharing which would reduce the number of cars.
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Aug 21, 2023 18:13
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If only there was some technology that allowed multiple people to ride in a vehicle to a similar destination.
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Aug 21, 2023 18:18
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If I could reliably pick up a car at a car share within a 5-10 minute walk from my house I'd sell my car in an instant. I only use it for grocery shopping and traveling to hike.
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Aug 21, 2023 18:22
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nelson posted:Self driving cars can lead to more car sharing which would reduce the number of cars. Assuming they work exactly as imaged, they're going to lead to an explosion of trips and even more demand for car infrastructure.
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Aug 21, 2023 18:51
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nelson posted:Self driving cars can lead to more car sharing which would reduce the number of cars. Eh, carpooling/sharing was the original thought process behind Zimride (now Lyft). Unfortunately, humans will usually prioritize convenience over most things. This is why I hypothesize that if we ever reach a critical level of self-driving cars where its the norm, it will probably lead to a boom in induced demand that will still require as much, if not more, car infrastructure. While this would probably lead to a reduction in personal car ownership (a good thing), it will probably have people choose using a self-driving car over transit, walking a handful of blocks, etc. Kalit fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Aug 21, 2023 |
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Aug 21, 2023 18:56
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I'm a regular user of the light rail here in Seattle, but what about the majority of the US with no good public transportation options? If I leave the city I'll need a car to do it any kind of reasonable time frame. Not to mention the western parts of Seattle like Ballard and West Seattle aren't even supposed to have light rail stations until like 2039 at the earliest. Unless we invest an insane amount of money to build out the country's public transportation network, I'd rather people be using EVs than gas powered cars.
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Aug 21, 2023 19:04
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We should invest an insane amount of money to build out the country's public transportation network
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Aug 21, 2023 19:06
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Kalit posted:While this would probably lead to a reduction in personal car ownership (a good thing), it will probably have people choose using a self-driving car over transit, walking a handful of blocks, etc. Maybe. But it also means less parking space is needed which leads to denser development which would make walking or public transit more viable.
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Aug 21, 2023 19:09
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Americans love their cars and living far away from things. How many suburbanites are going to be OK with waiting 20 minutes for a car every time they want to drive to the gas station for a 24 oz soda?
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Aug 21, 2023 19:19
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nelson posted:Maybe. But it also means less parking space is needed which leads to denser development which would make walking or public transit more viable. Are you talking about street parking for street widths or dedicated lots/garages for apartments/homes/businesses? If the latter, I would argue this is being artificially inflated because of minimum parking requirements that exist in cities (in addition to minimum lot sizes/etc). I personally know a number of people who only share 1 car for their household because dedicated parking is too expensive in their apartment building. Which is the case because developers aren't building X spaces/unit since minimum parking requirements has been relaxed. So instead of building enough for all units and rolling it into everyone's rent price, they build less and charge per space instead. If the former, it'd probably make a small difference. However, self-driving cars will still need a place to park. So it'd be either on the street or in some massive parking garage that'd get back up when a bunch of people request a car at the start of the day. Kalit fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Aug 21, 2023 |
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Aug 21, 2023 19:25
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Fitzy Fitz posted:Americans love their cars and living far away from things. How many suburbanites are going to be OK with waiting 20 minutes for a car every time they want to drive to the gas station for a 24 oz soda? Most Americans that I know hate driving, and they want to live close to things (see e.g. how much people complain about their commutes). But we design our cities to maximize unpleasantness, so most Americans have never experienced density that is pleasant to exist in. That's why they worry that you are going to try to turn their suburb into a loud, stinking, cramped, and dangerous city — that's the only kind of city they've ever seen.
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Aug 21, 2023 19:29
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Yup. Driving is an expensive pain in the rear end. It's just that the alternative in most parts of America is even worse. I'd love to bike more, but bike infrastructure in like 99.9% of the US is garbage. Even cities known for being bike friendly usually have a random smattering of painted bike lanes, and maybe a few protected bike lanes or off-street trails.
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Aug 21, 2023 19:36
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Mustang posted:I'm a regular user of the light rail here in Seattle, but what about the majority of the US with no good public transportation options? If I leave the city I'll need a car to do it any kind of reasonable time frame. Not to mention the western parts of Seattle like Ballard and West Seattle aren't even supposed to have light rail stations until like 2039 at the earliest. I would rather people be using EVs instead of gas-powered cars, but that's not what's happening; instead, what's happening is we're investing an insane amount of money to build out EVs and infrastructure for them instead of public transit, and people are still buying mostly enormous gas-powered vehicles.
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Aug 21, 2023 19:36
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Fitzy Fitz posted:We should invest an insane amount of money to build out the country's public transportation network I agree, but looking at the rate Seattle's light rail is being built, l just don't see that happening. Would love for a national politician to push for something like the scale of building out the interstate highway system, but for public transportation.
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Aug 21, 2023 19:38
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Ham Equity posted:I would rather people be using EVs instead of gas-powered cars, but that's not what's happening; instead, what's happening is we're investing an insane amount of money to build out EVs and infrastructure for them instead of public transit, and people are still buying mostly enormous gas-powered vehicles. We should definitely be investing more in public transit though, no argument there. It's just a shame that we're so very bad at spending that money efficiently, and neither party gives a poo poo.
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Aug 21, 2023 19:39
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VikingofRock posted:Most Americans that I know hate driving, and they want to live close to things (see e.g. how much people complain about their commutes). But we design our cities to maximize unpleasantness, so most Americans have never experienced density that is pleasant to exist in. That's why they worry that you are going to try to turn their suburb into a loud, stinking, cramped, and dangerous city — that's the only kind of city they've ever seen. I spent all of Saturday navigating from one end of metro Atlanta sprawl to the other, so I have a very specific class of suburbanites in mind at the moment, but they're a big group. I see a duality in American attitudes toward driving. Yeah, they hate their commute, traffic, bad drivers, gas prices, etc. But they love their big truck, resent the idea of losing freedom, hate how good urban design results in artificial inconvenience (for cars), and love the occasional road trip or pleasure drive. In their minds, the problems could all be solved if we just devoted more resources to cars (more lanes, gas tax holidays, bigger parking lots, etc.).
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Aug 21, 2023 19:40
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Mustang posted:I agree, but looking at the rate Seattle's light rail is being built, l just don't see that happening. That we're really bad at public infrastructure construction in US, in terms of both cost and time is another huge problem...
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Aug 21, 2023 19:44
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VikingofRock posted:Most Americans that I know hate driving, and they want to live close to things (see e.g. how much people complain about their commutes). But we design our cities to maximize unpleasantness, so most Americans have never experienced density that is pleasant to exist in. That's why they worry that you are going to try to turn their suburb into a loud, stinking, cramped, and dangerous city — that's the only kind of city they've ever seen.
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Aug 21, 2023 19:45
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mobby_6kl posted:Are people going to give up their lawns and McMansiosn to live closer to civilization though? These are mutually incompatible and while everyone hates driving (for commuting), I kind of doubt many would make that trade voluntarily. I think you are right that there are lots of people who don't want the trade, but there are also people who want to live in cities which are currently not being accommodated.
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Aug 21, 2023 19:48
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Mustang posted:Unless we invest an insane amount of money to build out the country's public transportation network, I'd rather people be using EVs than gas powered cars. Ham Equity posted:I would rather people be using EVs instead of gas-powered cars, but that's not what's happening; instead, what's happening is we're investing an insane amount of money to build out EVs and infrastructure for them instead of public transit, and people are still buying mostly enormous gas-powered vehicles. And even if everyone instantly switched to EVs, we'd still have a climate crisis: battery charging uses a grid based on fossil fuels, batteries are resource intensive to produce; because of the extra weight, there will be more wear and tear on the road which requires oil to repair, etc. People driving four thousand plus pounds of "utility" on a daily basis is the problem, not the particular engine that powers it.
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Aug 21, 2023 19:49
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mobby_6kl posted:Are people going to give up their lawns and McMansiosn to live closer to civilization though? These are mutually incompatible and while everyone hates driving (for commuting), I kind of doubt many would make that trade voluntarily. We subsidize the poo poo out of these people, and tax the poo poo out of the people who want to live in more densely-populated areas relative to them (in both the literal tax sense, and in the sense of driving up costs for dense developments via all sorts of policies). I know it's been posted in here before, but: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nw6qyyrTeI
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Aug 21, 2023 19:51
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sim posted:And even if everyone instantly switched to EVs, we'd still have a climate crisis: battery charging uses a grid based on fossil fuels, batteries are resource intensive to produce; because of the extra weight, there will be more wear and tear on the road which requires oil to repair, etc. People driving four thousand plus pounds of "utility" on a daily basis is the problem, not the particular engine that powers it. The fact that we're doing nothing to reign in vehicle size tells me we're not going to realize many of the potential benefits of EVs.
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Aug 21, 2023 19:52
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It really just comes down to the fact that you can't consume your way out of climate change, but that's all Western society knows.
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Aug 21, 2023 19:55
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mobby_6kl posted:Are people going to give up their lawns and McMansiosn to live closer to civilization though? These are mutually incompatible and while everyone hates driving (for commuting), I kind of doubt many would make that trade voluntarily. I just want to chime in on this conversation by adding a recent poll I found regarding quality of life/lifestyle: https://www.nar.realtor/newsroom/new-nar-survey-finds-americans-prefer-walkable-communities quote:79% said being within an easy walk of other places and things, such as shops and parks, is very/somewhat important. 78% of those indicated that they would be willing to pay more to live in a walkable community. As noted in the last sentence, rural/smaller metro areas are not included. So from an overall perspective of our country, I imagine those valuing SFH, large yards, etc is probably a decent amount higher. But there's definitely support for both density and the stereotypical American Dream lifestyles
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Aug 21, 2023 19:55
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sim posted:It really just comes down to the fact that you can't consume your way out of climate change, but that's all Western society knows. This is the sad truth. And we don't have government that knows how to or is capable of action beyond throwing tax breaks at things.
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Aug 21, 2023 20:01
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mobby_6kl posted:Are people going to give up their lawns and McMansiosn to live closer to civilization though? These are mutually incompatible and while everyone hates driving (for commuting), I kind of doubt many would make that trade voluntarily. All those groups with "environmental interests" that block dense new urban development are hypocritical pieces of poo poo. Humans need housing, if you don't build it as urban infill then people will move to sprawlurbia.
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Aug 21, 2023 20:32
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Even when we do invest heavily into public transit it tends to be kneecapped by bad zoning and related practices. Dallas has a huge network of light rail, but good luck getting a home within walking distance of most of the stops; it's mostly SFH's and other low density development except for right in the city center.
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Aug 21, 2023 20:38
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sim posted:And even if everyone instantly switched to EVs, we'd still have a climate crisis: battery charging uses a grid based on fossil fuels, batteries are resource intensive to produce; because of the extra weight, there will be more wear and tear on the road which requires oil to repair, etc. People driving four thousand plus pounds of "utility" on a daily basis is the problem, not the particular engine that powers it. If you instantly switched everything to EVs, you'd have made a huge dent in the carbon we're putting in the atmosphere. Yes we should make cities dense and spend lots on mass transit. EV's aren't a solution but they're also not the devil. Yes we should electify everything and add density and make our power grid renewable, and EV's dont' change any of that, but they're also not the cause of all of that, just a convenient target for being angry at cars. Cars suck but EV's aren't why you don't have a ton of nuclear buildout
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Aug 22, 2023 07:02
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Just found out about this thread. I went to the US for the first time as an adult last summer, and I landed in Kansas City. I'm vaguely into urban planning so I knew what I was getting into, but seeing it in person rocked my world. The morning I arrived I took a 40 minute walk from my hotel to a museum since I'm used to walking around being a big part of any city trip. I honestly thought there was a holiday or something because it was so desolate. No storefronts, not everywhere had sidewalls (on massive bridges!) and you had to wait ages at every crossroads because every unimportant road inexplicably has four lanes. I couldn't find any shops to get loving water at, and it was like 40c and no shade. I finally got to what I thought was a park just to see it was a loving massive lawn. I took an Uber back. Of course, even in Europe not everywhere is great. I lived in Tel-Aviv which is walkable/cyclable but has poo poo public transport. I went to Edinburgh last month and it's considered walkable but car lanes are huge and almost every street is two-way with a beg button which takes ages and makes every walk very annoying. It seems very zoned so part of the time you're walking solely next to residential areas. Cycling infrastructure is non-existent and while locals told me the buses are good, they were awful. They had priority lanes but they weren't well thought out and had constant interaction with private traffic which made them next to useless. I live in Paris now. It has its problems, of course. In winter when it's harder to use bikes or walk, medium (like, 30+ minute walk) distances can be annoying sometime cuz the buses aren't amazing and switching metro lines can take a while depending on the station. But otherwise, it's absolutely fantastic. Very happy not to have used a car in almost a year.
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Aug 22, 2023 08:27
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Jaxyon posted:If you instantly switched everything to EVs, you'd have made a huge dent in the carbon we're putting in the atmosphere. As the poster you’re responding to pointed out, a huge problem is mass battery production. Hopefully battery production will get massively less intense, but it would be terrifying to have all EVs on the road at an instant right now. There are a lot of different environmental impacts/human rights concerns: https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a42417327/lithium-supply-batteries-electric-vehicles/ And this isn’t even getting into the massive amount of mining operations we’d need to start up in the US to hit the Inflation Reduction Act’s domestic supply chain goals
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Aug 22, 2023 13:31
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We would make a huger dent in the carbon we put in the atmosphere if we just stop spending money on cars not one more new lane-mile
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Aug 22, 2023 14:33
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Greg12 posted:We would make a huger dent in the carbon we put in the atmosphere if we just Taking climate change seriously on really any level requires this. And that's why EVs are going to loving murder us. It's the out the people in power want for saying they're doing something without actually doing something.
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Aug 22, 2023 15:10
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There's a good podcast on all this by the Climate Town guy: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/electric-cars-will-save-us/id1694759084?i=1000620803695
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Aug 22, 2023 15:15
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EVs are already the emerging status quo, so it's time to start advocating for the next step: getting rid of EVs
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Aug 22, 2023 15:51
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Ham Equity posted:Taking climate change seriously on really any level requires this. Setting unreasonable goals is not the way to take something seriously. Society is based on cars and roads. Much of the world is less developed, and building more roads would significantly help the people living there. If you're proposing to halt road and car production, then you need to offer an alternative to be taken seriously.
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Aug 22, 2023 16:05
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Is anyone actually claiming that roads shouldn't be built to remote outposts though? There are thousands of cities across the US alone that could benefit significantly from an aggressive build-out of public transportation infrastructure that reduces reliance on cars. EVs are a half-measure that are already happening anyway, so what's the point in advocating for them? Why not argue for something better that could actually benefit from more support?
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Aug 22, 2023 16:15
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Count Roland posted:Setting unreasonable goals is not the way to take something seriously. Jesus loving Christ, the problem is not building a two-lane road to a village outside of Nairobi; it's another thousand square miles of parking lots, garages, and ten-lane freeways in major cities in the U.S. We keep dumping tons of government money into EVs, while continuing to exempt light trucks from CAFE standards, and refusing to have any sort of regulation on the size of vehicles. It's like we're in the midst of a forest fire, and deciding whether the fire fighters should use wine glasses or beer steins (EVs in this case are beer steins).
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Aug 22, 2023 16:36
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