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Proust Malone posted:I, the father of three sons, struggle to imagine the thought process of the dad. Were I the one facing gun charges, I would perhaps not give my fourteen year old a gun and tell him to patrol the property with Fido. Do you live in a cabin in the middle of the woods where you hunt to feed yourself? Because I don't, and I agree with you! Then again, I also don't think we should live in a society where selling two illegal firearms means that the cops get to come onto your property, murder your child, murder your wife and a bunch of assholes on the internet will be arguing that your child had it coming because you gave him a gun. VitalSigns posted:Morality teaching time: It's not okay to shoot a child in the back as he's running away even if his dad made bad decisions. Right? Maybe I'm somehow even more of a squishy lib, but I don't think your dad being a nazi facing felony charges means that the cops get to murder your whole family.
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Aug 21, 2023 22:53
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Notice how copaganda always focuses on how irrational everyone else was when the cops were being completely unreasonable. What was the Labrador Retriever thinking sniffing around his yard after some noises. That doggo was no angel.
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Aug 21, 2023 23:20
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Caros posted:Then again, I also don't think we should live in a society where selling two illegal firearms means that the cops get to come onto your property, murder your child, murder your wife and a bunch of assholes on the internet will be arguing that your child had it coming because you gave him a gun. No one here thinks this, so far as I could tell by reading their posts. Why are you arguing as if someone is advocating for a society where this is okay?
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Aug 22, 2023 00:33
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There does seem to be a lot of "well, it's not great, but it's not that bad because the guy was a dickhead" Which, like, if an rear end in a top hat falls into a bear trap that doesn't mean I relax my stance on not setting bear traps around at random. And I again really don't think there should be a differentiation betwee how the cops behaved in that instance and how they behave in other ones, because the pattern seems extremely familiar and all the same excuses of "well that's just how it is, they could have been armed, cops have to shoot on sight because it's a dangerous world" come up then, with no better justification.
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Aug 22, 2023 00:37
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It didn't start with anyone shooting an armed person, the cops started the firefight when they shot a dog in the anus for no reason, that could provoke anyone let alone a child whose pet just got executed in front of him. And they didn't even kill the kid in self defense, they shot a child in the back as he was running away. That's just murder.
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Aug 22, 2023 00:38
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SlothfulCobra posted:When an unarmed person gets shot by the cops, it's a horrifying unjust tragedy, when an armed person gets shot, well that's guns. That's the reason why the police are armed and triggerhappy, because the US is full of random other jerks with guns. There's plenty of news stories of kids getting shot for just having overly realistic toy guns, and you're telling me to be shocked at the cops shooting back at a teenager with a real gun who was already shooting at them? This is the natural result of living in a heavily armed society. There's not going to be any room between angry misunderstanding and shootout. Well poo poo, I guess Tamir Rice deserved it. He had a toy gun that looked like a real one so I guess that's guns. Sucks to suck amirite? You realize what you're describing is bad, right? I just want to be clear. I'm not telling you to be shocked. I'm annoyed at people acting like this isn't a horrific because his dad sucked. quote:It's not good for people to get shot, but that's what happens when you're yanking around the cops at length and talking about how you're gonna shoot them if they come near. This is what threats of violence lead to. This is what proliferation of firearms leads to. It creates a more violent world. And that's the world that pro-gun libertarians want. Okay? I'm not really 'ra ra, gently caress yeah, guns'. I'm mostly just annoyed that Leon strolled in here, dropped some absolute batshit lies about Ruby Ridge and a bunch of other posters, have chimed in to say "Well the kid had a gun so I guess that justified massive federal overreach that led to the death of three people. Literally all I'm saying is that this is yet another example of how cops are hosed. That maybe if they acted with some restraint they'd have avoided a ton of bloodshed. Or, even better, had they not induced Weaver in the first place. I also think poo poo like this is loving disgusting too. quote:Three months, and they were doing it as a sting operation to investigate neonazis planning violence. Oh poo poo, the report written by a bunch of cops that exonerated themselves says that they never entrapped him. Be still my beating heart. Hell, their own report includes the phrase "We are troubled by the sequence of events which immediately preceded the sale of the shotguns to the confidential informant" quote:The report also asserts that the dog was only shot after the family friend that was with Weaver's son had already started the firefight and shot and killed one of the cops, for what it's worth. Oh poo poo, the report written by a bunch of cops that exonerated themselves says that they didn't provoke the fight. Be still my beating heart. Lemniscate Blue posted:No one here thinks this, so far as I could tell by reading their posts. Why are you arguing as if someone is advocating for a society where this is okay? Might I suggest turning your monitor on?
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Aug 22, 2023 01:11
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I love how the cops' story that the neighbor started trying to kill them for no reason is just taken as fact, not the criminal case that found the neighbor only shot in self-defense or the subsequent civil case that found cops liable for hundreds of thousands in damages to the neighbor. Do you know how hard it is to claim self-defense for shooting a cop and win? I love how the cops' story makes no sense even at face value, if the neighbor was the imminent threat why were they aiming at the dog's butthole first, if they were only acting in self defense how did they shoot a child in the back, did the bullets miss, ricochet off the moon, and get the kid and his dog from behind.
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Aug 22, 2023 01:26
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Caros posted:Well poo poo, I guess Tamir Rice deserved it. He had a toy gun that looked like a real one so I guess that's guns. Well the police report asserts that the officers observed Tamir Rice pick up a gun-shaped object and tuck it in his pants, and then after given multiple chances to surrender the boy refused and drew what looked like a gun from his waistband instead, for what it's worth.
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Aug 22, 2023 01:34
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Now I'm reminded of that ridiculous "artist's representation" of how a prisoner magically drew a handgun concealed in his pants while handcuffed and shot a cop in front of him over the top of his own head. I think it was in a UK tabloid a while back and I'll be damned if I can remember the specifics but the image of a dude pulling a trick that makes Equilibrium look grounded and realistic is burned into my brain.
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Aug 22, 2023 01:38
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This is a fascinating derail. It seems possible to me to believe that the cops were scummy without whitewashing Weaver, who was a white supremacist gun nut lunatic who refused to respond to court process and is exactly the kind of guy that this thread ordinarily never, ever gives any benefit of the doubt. But that isn't good enough for D&D, I guess. If you ever suggest anything negative about any actor other than the cops, you get attacked and dogpiled as though you were a Free Republic bootlicker who is claiming that the shooting was justified. It's kind of exhausting.
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Aug 22, 2023 03:02
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predicto posted:But that isn't good enough for D&D, I guess. If you ever suggest anything negative about any actor other than the cops, you get attacked and dogpiled as though you were a Free Republic bootlicker who is claiming that the shooting was justified. Dungeons and Debates adheres to the rules out-lined in the stickied thread. There does not need to be an assumption of a war of stars type morality play where there is a dark side, who are really, really bad and evil, and a light side which is so, so nice and cuddly. It is possible that the neo-nazi prepper person was a bad person, and simultaneously true that the authorities around the case acted poorly. I do believe, upon reading the thread, that posting buddy Caros made it clear this was their explicit position, in fact. I'm not a law enforcement person, but based on the reading made available via this conversation, this seems like a "mistakes were made" type of situation. It's not about the licking of boots, as far as I can tell, but about the use of force. I'm privileged enough to live in a country where the police do not routinely execute people and dogs, so I suppose I am biased in suggesting that would qualify as "messed up", but here we are.
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Aug 22, 2023 03:10
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Caros posted:'There was no proof that the cop intended to kill or injure weaver'. Because apparently cops are that one batman skit where they don't understand how death works and that shooting your firearm at someone can kill or injure them. This one drives me up a loving wall. Pointing a firearm at someone is intent to kill or injure, and the cops routinely kill people for doing so on just that justification.
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Aug 22, 2023 10:14
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Unfortunately it seems the only thing the cops took away from it was to stop bothering to pursue white supremacists at all.
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Aug 22, 2023 10:20
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SlothfulCobra posted:When an unarmed person gets shot by the cops, it's a horrifying unjust tragedy, when an armed person gets shot, well that's guns. That's the reason why the police are armed and triggerhappy, because the US is full of random other jerks with guns. There's plenty of news stories of kids getting shot for just having overly realistic toy guns, and you're telling me to be shocked at the cops shooting back at a teenager with a real gun who was already shooting at them? This is the natural result of living in a heavily armed society. There's not going to be any room between angry misunderstanding and shootout. Gonna stop you right there and point out that 1 in 20 of all homicides in the country in 2019 were police violence. The CDC and FBI have been soundly criticized for years for how they track police killings, with a study in 2021 finding that over 40 years 1980-2019 deaths from police violence were under-reported in the National Vital Statistics System, by and estimate of over 50%. Study info here, and the authors note that it didn't capture the full scope of police violence as it only accounted for deaths, not injuries caused by police violence. The existence of firearms (or dogs for that matter) is not license for cops to go buckwild and shoot up random people, no matter how hard they try to pretend it is and lean on passive voice in reporting and qualified immunity in the courts. Any one else legally in possession of a firearm who was 1/10th as fast to panic and start blasting as a cop would be rightly spending most of the rest of their life in jail. Weaver was a white supremacist who allegedly committed a tax crime (creating or selling a short barreled shotgun without a tax stamp is, federally speaking, only a felony as a tax crime). He was also probably looking at a $10k fine and up to 10 years if just charged with violating the NFA, and/or up to $100k and 5 years as a felony count if they went for tax evasion in not filing the paperwork and buying the $200 tax stamps for creating and transferring the short barreled shotguns. Note that execution is not a potential penalty for these crimes. Nor for associating with someone who has been charged with these crimes. I loving hate white supremacists, but it is generally a bad idea to let the uniformed agents of the government shoot people's loved ones, even if they are assholes.
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Aug 22, 2023 10:57
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Never mind. Thought I had something to add but it was banal
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Aug 22, 2023 11:07
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The 1985 MOVE bombing also saw police respond to a standoff with a fringe political movement and persons accused of firearms crimes and contempt of court, only in this case they ended it by bombing a residential block from a helicopter instead of enlisting a fellow true believer to negotiate. That would have saved a lot of time at Ruby Ridge (but still been excessive force) but you never seem to see Libertarians bring that up much, if at all.
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Aug 22, 2023 14:00
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Probably for the same reason that libertarians all fell in love with the same "this only happened because they didn't COMPLY" argument in 2014. It's really tempting to get a little authoritarian when the state is abusing someone you hate, as the Ruby Ridge discourse shows.
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Aug 22, 2023 14:17
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https://twitter.com/TRHLofficial/status/1693977828943938038?t=EyG0q_9SL5Oyf3z7X_NaPA&s=19 Slavery and student debt relief, exactly the same thing! 
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Aug 23, 2023 01:51
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Considering how much they wail about other forms of debt being slavery, you'd think they'd be more excited about student loan forgiveness. Wonder what the difference is? 
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Aug 23, 2023 02:48
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Panfilo posted:https://twitter.com/TRHLofficial/status/1693977828943938038?t=EyG0q_9SL5Oyf3z7X_NaPA&s=19 I mean, you could make a case that slavery and enforcement of debts derive from similar capitalist forces. But in that case if you were pro emancipation, you would also be pro debt forgiveness, which I suspect is exactly the opposite position of libertarians.
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Aug 23, 2023 03:54
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Panfilo posted:https://twitter.com/TRHLofficial/status/1693977828943938038?t=EyG0q_9SL5Oyf3z7X_NaPA&s=19 That seems like a very obvious hateclick grift account
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Aug 23, 2023 03:59
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Yeah, I get that this thread would die without posting people to shake our fists at, but she seems like pretty low-hanging fruit and also a complete nobody that no one cares about (except in this thread).
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Aug 23, 2023 10:52
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She's got half a million followers and the ear of the richest man on the planet, doesn't strike me as a nobody. I mean if we're going to be pedantic, what self-described Libertarian isn't a nobody in the political sphere?
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Aug 23, 2023 11:33
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Panfilo posted:She's got half a million followers and the ear of the richest man on the planet, doesn't strike me as a nobody. Every online poll I have seen says that Dr. Ron Paul is going to win the 2008 election in a landslide. You're going to look pretty silly on election day.
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Aug 23, 2023 13:54
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Remember that one dude who stripped on stage in the 2016 libertarian convention, to show off his Iron Cross tattoo? Pepperidge Farms remembers.
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Aug 23, 2023 14:03
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Rappaport posted:Remember that one dude who stripped on stage in the 2016 libertarian convention, to show off his Iron Cross tattoo? Pepperidge Farms remembers. My favorite Libertarian convention moment is when they had a long debate about adding the legalization of child pornography to their platform. Half of them were smart enough to realize that would be an absolutely terrible idea that would sink whatever limited appeal they already had and would never be implemented. The other half were adamantly for it because if they opposed it, then it would be admitting that the theory that getting government regulation out of every scenario will improve every facet of society make their entire platform about the universal nature of that fact fall apart. Libertarians love their theory, so there was a huge debate over it because if the theory wasn't 100% universal, then it meant everything they believed might not provide the answers to every possible problem.
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Aug 23, 2023 14:15
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Rappaport posted:Remember that one dude who stripped on stage in the 2016 libertarian convention, to show off his Iron Cross tattoo? Pepperidge Farms remembers. And then later that guy wearing a suit two or three sizes too big worked himself into a frothing rage over the existence of seatbelt laws and state-mandated driver's licenses.
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Aug 23, 2023 18:07
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Look just let private companies build parallel road networks and then they can set their own rules for them.
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Aug 23, 2023 18:11
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I want to see the libertopia with flying cars now. It'd be brief, but oh so bright (with explosions).
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Aug 23, 2023 18:12
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Captain_Maclaine posted:And then later that guy wearing a suit two or three sizes too big worked himself into a frothing rage over the existence of seatbelt laws and state-mandated driver's licenses. Was this the same event where a guy got booed for saying he didn't think you should be allowed to sell heroin to schoolkids?
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Aug 23, 2023 18:17
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Rappaport posted:I want to see the libertopia with flying cars now. It'd be brief, but oh so bright (with explosions). Assuming the flying cars even get off the ground instead of exploding on engine start.
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Aug 23, 2023 18:20
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Blue Footed Booby posted:Was this the same event where a guy got booed for saying he didn't think you should be allowed to sell heroin to schoolkids? Parents can choose to enforce it or not for their child! With guns! Freedom is bands of armed patriots wandering around schools at all times looking for whoever they think looks like a drug dealer.
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Aug 23, 2023 18:22
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Blue Footed Booby posted:Was this the same event where a guy got booed for saying he didn't think you should be allowed to sell heroin to schoolkids? Yes. The man booed was the eventual candidate Gary Johnson, unless my memory fails me. Guavanaut posted:Freedom is bands of armed patriots wandering around schools at all times looking for whoever they think looks like a drug dealer. ie shooting the black kids.
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Aug 23, 2023 18:24
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Angry_Ed posted:Assuming the flying cars even get off the ground instead of exploding on engine start. Hey, an explosion is an explosion. Is a man not entitled to the boom of his
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Aug 23, 2023 18:27
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Yes. The man booed was the eventual candidate Gary Johnson, unless my memory fails me. see also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZITP93pqtdQ
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Aug 23, 2023 18:49
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Rappaport posted:Remember that one dude who stripped on stage in the 2016 libertarian convention, to show off his Iron Cross tattoo? Pepperidge Farms remembers. Fun fact, that dude was--and still is, as far as I know--an anarcho-communist. I think he had some defense of that tattoo but gently caress if I can remember what it was.
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Aug 24, 2023 07:11
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https://twitter.com/LoFiRepublican/status/1694370802588659847 edit: https://twitter.com/I_Am_CyberSmith/status/1694787579030249915 "oh so you think this asinine scenario isn't serious enough for ya? well, what about something genuinely awful that you DO care about, eh?  "
Mr Interweb fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Aug 25, 2023 |
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Aug 25, 2023 00:30
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I sometimes used to put security tag thingies on pricier items at a retail place I used to work at, what does that make me?
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Aug 25, 2023 02:28
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Mr Interweb posted:https://twitter.com/LoFiRepublican/status/1694370802588659847 I always wonder what these idiots are like in real life. Anonymity has a way of making a person larger than life, and Twitter's current systems really amplify the worst of the worst. But what is Lo Fi republican in real life? Some baby faced college republican from BYU? A gas station attendant? A pensioner living in the desolate swamps of Florida?
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Aug 25, 2023 03:04
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