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Mister Olympus posted:it doesn't help that some classes in this system, like magus and gunslinger, do have very tight action loops that hurt to have disrupted Yeah, and that's fair - if we had anyone with an action loop like that I'd be more forgiving. But our party is a pixie sprite fighter (me), a grippli imperial sorcerer (my partner), a leshy animal druid, and an azarketi wit swashbuckler. Usually the swashbuckler's on board with my tactical planning (my character's backstory is that she came to the Prime from the First World because she wanted to Become A Hero™ and obviously all heroes started as sellswords and mercenaries, so she lives for that sort of "leader of the merc band" tactical planning thing), but lord, it just felt kind of a slap in the face to explicitly set a plan and see another player just go "lol nope bye" to it.
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Aug 28, 2023 19:18
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appropriatemetaphor posted:On occasion I've tried to Feint as a Rogue to get off-guard on a target and it's failed probably 90% of the time. Can't imagine having to rely on that for precious Panache. This is why swashbuckler feats are extremely underrated. They might not be as sexy as a multiclass feat but feats like After You help make sure your class still works when you are fighting a difficult opponent.
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Aug 28, 2023 19:20
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like....the part's that confusing is what he's doing is effectively just raising his shield then striding twice. that's it. he'll get hit by aoos, trigger traps, everything as normal, just move like, ten feet further. what's the point of that?
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Aug 28, 2023 19:29
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sugar free jazz posted:like....the part's that confusing is what he's doing is effectively just raising his shield then striding twice. that's it. he'll get hit by aoos, trigger traps, everything as normal, just move like, ten feet further. what's the point of that? it almost seems like intentional sabotage? like just ending your turn is often better than stride twice raise shield.
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Aug 28, 2023 19:37
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after being told off enough, any unintentional sabotage should be treated as intentional
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Aug 28, 2023 19:50
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KPC_Mammon posted:I might be having a big combat coming up. The forces of evil are attacking a small town. Has anyone run something like this? The bad guys are likely to try attacking from multiple directions since they have access to some teleportation magic, so they'll need to react to problems as they appear across town. Feels like a really good situation to use some of the GMG subsystem rules; a mix of victory points and chase rules could be a good way to set up a frantic situation where the party has to rush between various breached defenses.
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Aug 28, 2023 19:51
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Mister Olympus posted:after being told off enough, any unintentional sabotage should be treated as intentional That's probably going to be how I come at things with my table's druid if there's another near TPK situation; my character isn't a greenhorn, and she's got enough of a leadership mindset that she would read "I could've healed y'all but didn't" as sabotage and blow a fae gasket over it. The druid player is so obsessed over the whole "I roleplay, not rollplay" poo poo that it makes me want to meet that head on.
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Aug 28, 2023 20:08
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Kyrosiris posted:The druid player is so obsessed over the whole "I roleplay, not rollplay" poo poo that it makes me want to meet that head on. Meeting this specific bullshit with your own roleplay is a pretty decent idea but the player sounds really toxic. My party has a druid that is terrible at healing people (it directly resulted in everyone being captured recently) and when I talked to him outside the game about it, he said it would help him immensely if other people let them know if they needed to be healed. He already has a lot on his plate juggling buffs, debuffs, aoe damage, and creating terrain, needing to keep constant watch of everyone else's hp was too much for him. I'm really lucky in that my players love to coordinate and talk tactics. I figure it is fine during combat, from an rp perspective, because they probably talk tactics during their downtime and would likely be far more coordinated than the actual players who have to deal with all of the bullshit that comes with real life and sometimes multi-weeklong breaks between sessions. edit: I bring this up because sometimes people get defensive and passive aggressive when they are actually just overwhelmed. They might be a perfectly pleasant person most of the time but they might not know how to differentiate helpful advice (or begging for a heal because you are dying) from being ordered around by someone who thinks they are incompetent. I remember when roleplay vs rollplay became really big on the internet during 3rd edition and it is one of the worst mindsets I think you can have during a cooperative game. KPC_Mammon fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Aug 28, 2023 |
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Aug 28, 2023 20:29
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Kyrosiris posted:That's probably going to be how I come at things with my table's druid if there's another near TPK situation; my character isn't a greenhorn, and she's got enough of a leadership mindset that she would read "I could've healed y'all but didn't" as sabotage and blow a fae gasket over it. this sounds like a player problem and not a character problem
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Aug 28, 2023 20:31
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If the player is playing massively sub-optimally as "something their character would do" then they should be treated exactly as cretins in a life-or-death situation would be treated: summarily dismissed. This is first and foremost a team game and players who focus on their own selfish desires over the good of their team are cut. It's really that simple, no one is going to deal with prima donna poo poo when their life is on the line. "I could have scored that goal but I didn't - I have my reasons"...wow. Can you imagine? And that's a sport, not a battle where lives are on the line. edit: Had a good conversation with the Bard and it looks like the days of Warp Step and Raise Shield are over, thank goodness! Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Aug 28, 2023 |
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Aug 28, 2023 21:20
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Being on a team of adventurers kinda assumes that this "hero" is good at adventuring. Like roleplaying a bumbling blind clown fighter who always forgets their weapons at home kinda begs the question: why the gently caress are they here in these horrible Vaults in the first place?
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Aug 28, 2023 22:12
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Facebook Aunt posted:Absolutely. But still, it's a team game and it helps to think about what is the best move for the team, even if it means your character does less damage this turn. Megaman's Jockstrap posted:If the player is playing massively sub-optimally as "something their character would do" then they should be treated exactly as cretins in a life-or-death situation would be treated: summarily dismissed. quote:edit: Had a good conversation with the Bard and it looks like the days of Warp Step and Raise Shield are over, thank goodness! Mister Olympus posted:it doesn't help that some classes in this system, like magus and gunslinger, do have very tight action loops that hurt to have disrupted
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Aug 28, 2023 22:51
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sugar free jazz posted:this sounds like a player problem and not a character problem You're not wrong. I honestly should walk away from the table but I like two of the three other players and the GM (in spite of my occasional grousing about the swashbuckler), and I did offer to basically be their "hey we're trying to get off 5e and move to PF2e, do you mind helping us?" go-to person. I also have the bad habit of internalizing everything in terms of "okay, how'd I gently caress up this exchange" and realistically I should realize that anyone who reacts to "hey <player> there were at least a couple of places where a two-action or three-action Heal would've swung the tide of battle in our favor during that fight" with "if this system is all about rollplay instead of roleplay then I'm out" is not someone I can get things through to.  I just bite my tongue a lot and vent to y'all instead. 
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Aug 28, 2023 23:02
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:edit: Had a good conversation with the Bard and it looks like the days of Warp Step and Raise Shield are over, thank goodness! C'mon, after all this you can't just say that and not give us some deets. Kyrosiris posted:I also have the bad habit of internalizing everything in terms of "okay, how'd I gently caress up this exchange" and realistically I should realize that anyone who reacts to "hey <player> there were at least a couple of places where a two-action or three-action Heal would've swung the tide of battle in our favor during that fight" with "if this system is all about rollplay instead of roleplay then I'm out" is not someone I can get things through to. "How about roleplaying as someone who's actually competent at this whole adventuring thing" More seriously, this is where you talk to the GM and get them to put a foot down about that nonsense.
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Aug 28, 2023 23:29
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i was thinking about beginning to buy in to pathfinder 2e as an interesting, dnd-like tactical game that would be easy to get people into, but i see now that there's this big thing about a big corebook update? should I hold off until this update happens? Are there balance updates? I noticed that people didn't like a few classes for being underpowered - are they being addressed? Impermanent fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Aug 28, 2023 |
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Aug 28, 2023 23:51
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Impermanent posted:i was thinking about beginning to buy in to pathfinder 2e as an interesting, dnd-like tactical game that would be easy to get people into, but i see now that there's this big thing about a big corebook update? should I hold off until this update happens? Yes. It’ll be out this fall and it’s compatible with everything beforehand.
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Aug 28, 2023 23:53
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Impermanent posted:Are there balance updates? I noticed that people didn't like a few classes for being underpowered - are they being addressed? The witch is getting some love. The alchemist too, but that won't be released until next summer and the alchemist is weird and complex so it probably isn't a great class for new players anyway. There are changes to the alignment system that will affect clerics and champions, but probably won't make them stronger or weaker. (The 9 alignment grid is going away, people won't have alignments anymore. Celestial type things can be Holy or Unholy, and certain people can dedicate themselves to holy or unholy.) The 8 spell schools are going away, and new types of schools are replacing them. That affects the wizard subclasses, mostly. Probably won't make them any stronger or weaker though.
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Aug 29, 2023 00:16
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Impermanent posted:Are there balance updates? I noticed that people didn't like a few classes for being underpowered - are they being addressed? Yes.
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Aug 29, 2023 00:16
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Impermanent posted:i was thinking about beginning to buy in to pathfinder 2e as an interesting, dnd-like tactical game that would be easy to get people into, but i see now that there's this big thing about a big corebook update? should I hold off until this update happens? There's a lot of updates, but because of license issues in switching over to their own ORC license, Paizo is removing a few things people might think of as "fantasy RPG default" but they're actually D&D IP. Creatures like chromatic and metallic dragons, and Drow, and some other things are not going to be present in Pf2e Revised. You might have to deal with player expectations not exactly being met if they come into it thinking this is just D&D with different mechanics. It's a different game.
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Aug 29, 2023 00:22
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Roadie posted:C'mon, after all this you can't just say that and not give us some deets. What you basically need to know about this player is that everything is internalized from D&D, and he plays a Bard with Misty Step in 5e. His "headcanon" version of the Bard is "extremely mobile". So we have a class fantasy that he's trying to play at the detriment of...well...just about anything. That's not great. Also he got really excited about being table to teleport with Warp Step "at level 4", and was just trying to use it a lot to "get some value out of it". Upon reviewing the spell we realized that he had mistaken the spell level (4th) for the player level (4th) - thank you, Pathfinder Remaster, for changing these to "Ranks" - and so I explained to him that he wouldn't be able to teleport until character level 7, and that was the same level that he would unlock Dimension Door. So really he was not getting anything out of it, he was going to teleport at character level 7 without Warp Step if that's what he wanted. A lot of this though, comes down to the player being in the pocket of Big Wizard. The way he thinks about problem solving in these games is: go hunting through your toolkit for the right spell to solve the problem. Does the bridge collapse? Teleport across. Is the item surrounded by guards? Use Mage Hand to pick it up, or Invisibility, or a Hat of Disguise or whatever. Cast Charm Person to get the mayor to give you the scroll instead of doing the favor for her. Why go to the magic ruins in the Feywild when you can cast Divination from the comfort of your Wizard Lounge? That kind of thing. And Warp Step, to him, represented some super speed thing that would allow him to become The Flash, But Bard and zoom around to someone who needed Battle Medicine and give it to them, or deliver that clutch flank, or whatever. It was the same thinking that led him to take Trick Magic Item instead of Assurance (Medicine) because you never know, you may need to use that Divine item to blah blah blah the point is I gotta have ~*the magic*~! Essentially at every point he could have chosen "go with being a Battle Medic Bard which is your character concept and what you built this character to do" or "go with magical faffery" he went with magical faffery. So just three changes: moving his choice of Psychic Dedication to Medic Dedication, changing one of his cantrips to Needle Darts to give him a bit more offense, and changing out Trick Magic Item to Assurance (Medicine) and he's got the Battle Healer Full Caster Bard I think he's going for. We'll see.
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Aug 29, 2023 00:27
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But Warp Step is a cantrip, not a level 4 spell?
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Aug 29, 2023 01:39
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Rythian posted:But Warp Step is a cantrip, not a level 4 spell? If you cast the Psychic version from a 4th rank spell slot it becomes a teleport. https://app.demiplane.com/nexus/pathfinder2e/spells/warp-step-psychic
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Aug 29, 2023 01:48
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Yeah it's specifically the Psychic amped version that's being referred to here. Basically, you have to be level 7 and popping the amp.
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Aug 29, 2023 01:56
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Ah yeah, you mentioned Psychic Dedication, I forgot they had super cantrips.
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Aug 29, 2023 02:05
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Oh that'll be fun for one of my players as they go. So far they're mostly using cantrip blasts but the few times they have used Amp'd spells it's been very fun to watch.
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Aug 29, 2023 02:18
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It is going to suck when that bard reaches level 7 and casts dimension door and raises a shield three times and then asks the entire party to rest.
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Aug 29, 2023 02:18
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Facebook Aunt posted:Some people just get a fixation about what their character does. In an online DnD game we saw like 8 trash mobs (goblins or something IDK) up ahead almost 60 feet away (the limit of our vision). This seems like a perfect situation to let the archers and casters take potshots because even if they dash they won't be able to attack us on the first round. Instead the barbarian runs up to them. She decides not to burn a rage, because "these guys aren't worth it". Upon running up to them with a light it turns out there are 12, not 8. They completely surround her, and 12 puny guys all get an attack without her damage resistance up. Now we can't use AoE spells because she's in the center of them. The action economy is against her and she nearly dies. ...is the money or ability score economy in 2e so much tighter that a barbarian can't afford to have and be halfway decent with a bow? The Golux fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Aug 29, 2023 |
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Aug 29, 2023 06:44
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The Golux posted:...is the money or ability score economy in 2e so much tighter that a barbarian can't afford to have and be halfway decent with a bow? "In an online DnD game" presumably means it wasn't pathfinder 2e. (and in pathfinder 2e any character can have and be halfway decent with a ranged weapon.)
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Aug 29, 2023 07:43
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The Golux posted:...is the money or ability score economy in 2e so much tighter that a barbarian can't afford to have and be halfway decent with a bow? Mostly the latter. As a Barbarian, you can wear medium armor, which means you don’t see an AC benefit to Dex above 12. And you want 18 Str and 16 Con, so that’s your Class, background, and ancestry boosts at creation spoken for anyway. So, the result is that your ranged attacks are going to be at a full -3 versus your melee at level 1 and that gap isn’t going to shrink meaningfully in most cases. Basically, a Barbarian is about as good at hitting things with a Bow as a caster who pumped Dex is. Which is to say… not.
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Aug 29, 2023 07:44
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Raging thrower can help though. [Edit] Didn't realize no weapons have brutal, so yeah the attack difference does hurt a fair amount. DemonMage fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Aug 29, 2023 |
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Aug 29, 2023 07:48
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I missed that it was a D&D thing and not a PF2 thing, sorry, but the question still kinda stands I think. -3 isn't THAT much worse for plinking at range before closing I would think, though I know the hit and crit numbers are stricter. I dunno maybe I just have a weird impression from playing PF1 in a home game that usually uses higher point buys than usual. The Golux fucked around with this message at 08:03 on Aug 29, 2023 |
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Aug 29, 2023 07:55
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The Golux posted:...is the money or ability score economy in 2e so much tighter that a barbarian can't afford to have and be halfway decent with a bow? It was DnD, but I don't think it was a system issue. They were a melee guy with all their feats and magical equipment built around doing cool stuff in melee. Pulling out a non-magical ranged weapon and doing half as much damage as usual doesn't serve their fantasy role.
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Aug 29, 2023 08:40
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I think the proper answer for most D&D-likes is supposed to be for the Barbarian to pack a few strength-based throwing weapons, whether they be axes or javelins, and especially at early levels. For PF2E at higher levels, you recycle leftover loot to keep the throwing weapons semi-relevant, or you invest in magic items for mobility and range, like the Extending Rune (https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1055).
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Aug 29, 2023 12:29
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The Golux posted:I missed that it was a D&D thing and not a PF2 thing, sorry, but the question still kinda stands I think. -3 isn't THAT much worse for plinking at range before closing I would think, though I know the hit and crit numbers are stricter. -3 absolutely is that much worse in PF2, but also, you’re correct that the right move is still to do it anyway, because this is clearly the moment for your buddy the archer to claim his moment in the spotlight and a good Barbarian player will recognize and enable that rather than being a dick and make things more challenging for everyone.
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Aug 29, 2023 13:13
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An advanced gaming skill is recognising when to play your character/class and when to play the scenario. Learning that lesson can be painful, but when confronted with a scenario where your particular set of abilities aren’t suitable, its time to think about what else you could do.
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Aug 29, 2023 13:18
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A -3 is better than a 2nd attack's bonus would be and most people take those, though I generally just delay in those situations if I think they'll approach to within one Stride distance.
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Aug 29, 2023 13:30
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An attack at -3 isn't great as noted above but a -3 attack that also removes multiple actions from every single enemy, hit or miss, is fantastic. Not moving to engage can be better than Slow, a spell often considered too good.
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Aug 29, 2023 15:49
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Personally I would Ready and engage once the people actually good at ranged attacks have started the party, but that's just me.
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Aug 29, 2023 15:52
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Proven posted:I think the proper answer for most D&D-likes is supposed to be for the Barbarian to pack a few strength-based throwing weapons, whether they be axes or javelins, and especially at early levels. For PF2E at higher levels, you recycle leftover loot to keep the throwing weapons semi-relevant, or you invest in magic items for mobility and range, like the Extending Rune (https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1055). The extending rune is hilarious and should definitely be taken more often. The idea of a go go gadget spring loaded weapon stabbing some critter from 60 feet away is too good to pass up for most martials
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Aug 29, 2023 15:56
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:What you basically need to know about this player is that everything is internalized from D&D, and he plays a Bard with Misty Step in 5e. His "headcanon" version of the Bard is "extremely mobile". So we have a class fantasy that he's trying to play at the detriment of...well...just about anything. That's not great. "Bard = Zoomies" is such a specific, weird, and also mostly-wrong class fantasy. By no means do I think everybody has to (or even should!) stick to the stereotypical class fantasy, but that one's a doozy. And it's not even, like, a fantasy that does anything. It just zooms around. To what end? "I dunno, flanks I guess."
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Aug 29, 2023 16:25
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