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theblackw0lf posted:So do we pretty much all agree that was the best episode of the series? well, roughly 60% of it was
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Sep 9, 2023 17:43
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I think Terminus was really destroyed but as a decoy. When Hari, Day, and Demerzel are walking to the Vault Hari says to Poly that he never wants anyone to die needlessly. I see that as meaning that the deaths of everyone on Terminus and Invictus served a purpose of letting Empire think that they’ve destroyed the Foundation.
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Sep 9, 2023 19:33
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The problem with the whole decoy idea is that it doesn't make sense. The first Foundation NEEDS to be "visible", it needs to spread its influence, develop/save technology/knowledge and EXPAND, that is its whole purpose and you completely undermine that by "hiding" it. That's the whole "job" and purpose of the second Foundation but its a "job" because its in service of protecting(!) the first Foundation. The First Foundation isn't some abstract ideology or organisation that can just be discarded and the plan still works, that would 100% undermine the whole concept between the Foundation(s). If that were the case and the Foundation could have work as an "idea" (ideology) then Seldon could have created it as a "religion" from the very beginning but that's not what he did. It is actually very important that it has a clear physical manifestation as an organisation/society. Seldon doesn't want to (re)create some sort of perfect/specific ideology, he wants to safe SOCIETY itself. That also means he doesn't really care about "ideology" per se because the whole story (certainly in the books) is about the rise and fall of "empires" (I mean the literal book named "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire" was Asimov's inspiration for the story) so the Foundation isn't necessarily there to create some new utopian society, it might just be another "Empire" but it will at least be one where society isn't in a "dark age". All of this is a lot more highlighted with the whole purpose of the "Encyclopedia Galactica" which is even namedropped in the last ep but has mostly been ignored in the show despite the fact that its existence, ie collecting the knowledge of humanity, is an extremely important point/goal of the (First) Foundation and fuels/explains its "rise" and technological development. The thing is all of that can't be achieved if the First Foundation has to hide or would be destroyed. It needs to be an ACTIVE player in the galaxy to fill(!) the gap left by a declining Empire. That's another MAJOR problem the TV show currently has, it FAILS to communicate that the Empire is actually in decline. I'm not going to bother with spoiler tags because this show is really nothing like the book anymore but at this point in time the First Foundation has to compete with other(!) local powers around it while the Empire is declining and too busy dealing with other threats. That is however not the case in the show. We don't really get to see other powers or "threats" to the Empire. We do have "Dominion" as a faction in this season but not only are they invisible, apparently their whole leadership can just be taken out without any repercussions. So they kinda pay lipservice to a "decline" in regards to Empire being "forced" into an alliance with Dominion although it doesn't really make sense because all we see is that Empire still has full control of interstellar travel technology (ie the Spacers) and its military is still overwhelming compared to anything else so who is going to challenge Empire? It's bad worldbuilding. But even if we ignore that, the show actually visually(!) undermines the "decline" of the Empire. The destruction of the space elevator in S1 is a MAJOR event and can be seen as an analogy for the Empire, it LITERALLY crushes into itself. What do we get in S2? A planetary orbital(!) ring that would be a far bigger technological achievement by several MAGNITUDES. It can't be overstated what an effort that construction would be compared to a "simple" space elevator. That is the opposite of decline, it's the visual language for "high point of a civilization" akin to the Pyramids in Egypt. You can of course try to "excuse" that with arguments like its just a vanity project of Empire to compensate etc. and while you could try to justify it that way it's still sending very confused/mixed signals in a narrative sense. It's also an odd choice because the Foundation visually stagnates(!) in its planetary development. Everyone here probably knows the pictures of chinese cities in the 70s/80s compared to today. Now imagine that for a far more advanced civilization and a society that is driven towards achieving maximum progress. If any planet should have gotten "orbital rings" then it should have been Terminus (it would even helped to make it more credible that its able to resist Empire). Imo we are facing the "Star Wars problem" here (see the New Republic/Resistence). The writers think the First Foundation needs to be that plucky underdog and that is reflected in its visuals and how its portrayed. The problem here is that the Foundation is only an "underdog" compared to other (major) powers, not that it's supposed to be some backwater planet for the whole story. Its whole reason to exist is to eventually replace the Empire, ie become an "Empire" itself. Again, this story is based around the RISE and FALL of Empires, Foundation IS such an Empire. THE Empire we see in the show is supposed to be the "fall" part but Foundation is the other side we should be exploring, ie the RISE of an Empire (and what struggles that entails, ie the crises...). That will be undermined if the show keeps pretending like the Foundation is the "Star Wars Rebels" equivalent throughout the story. That was okay in season 1 but there needs to be PROGRESS and it would be hilarious (in a bad way) if they really decide to "reset" the First Foundation or keep it as some sort of "hidden" organisation (which again misses the WHOLE point). It's a reason why the Foundation trilogy is seen as the "granddaddy" of space operas because it spearheaded this kind of GALACTIC scale storytelling with multiple factions etc. and stakes that go beyond a single character/location. The show sadly likes Empire a bit too much to the detriment of the overall story and instead of developing other "players in the game" we are wasting time with all the Gaal/Salvor/Seldon subplots/adventures. They could at least have used them to explore other "factions" but nope, nothing there. The thing is they KINDA did it in season one but again, it's just at the wrong scale. It's more "terrorists" and "small random people" than "nations" and "leaders". LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Sep 9, 2023 |
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Sep 9, 2023 22:11
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I feel like this thread has done a decent job of portraying something that maybe the show isn't portraying as heavily; Hari Seldon is a bit of a hypocrite. The struggle of whether or not he cares about individuals in the greater scheme of psychohistory seems to not have a definitive answer, to the detriment of this thread's goodwill towards the show (via certain posters, not that I remember who you are, this isn't a callout) and the detriment of Gaal and Salvor's trust in him. He might tell Poly he doesn't want people to die needlessly but that doesn't restrict him from considering the sacrifice of Foundation 1 needful. However, this is the Hari that began guessing he was the left hand, so it's entirely possible he is the Hari who cares more about individuals than the other and/or original. In any case, that castling device mention and the iron to gold alchemy certainly makes it seem like there's more going on than we've witnessed but the way people reacted to seeing the fall of Invictus and watching Poly get pulverized makes it all seem really odd. My only bet is that the crew of the Invictus made it out. If it's more than that, I'm certainly interested in how it's explained in a way that's satisfying. Speaking of satisfying: 
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Sep 9, 2023 22:21
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DaveKap posted:I feel like this thread has done a decent job of portraying something that maybe the show isn't portraying as heavily; Hari Seldon is a bit of a hypocrite. The struggle of whether or not he cares about individuals in the greater scheme of psychohistory seems to not have a definitive answer, to the detriment of this thread's goodwill towards the show (via certain posters, not that I remember who you are, this isn't a callout) and the detriment of Gaal and Salvor's trust in him. He might tell Poly he doesn't want people to die needlessly but that doesn't restrict him from considering the sacrifice of Foundation 1 needful. The show in general just doesn't do a good job in communicating the true SCALE of Psychohistory and what Seldon's "goal" is. My previous post kinda dealt with it already but it can't be overstated enough that Seldon (and the story) is rather apolitical in a sense. It doesn't explore if Democracy, Autocracy etc. is the "right" form of government, whether or not people should have certain rights or anything to that degree. In many ways its the ultimate utilitarian approach on a galactic scale of millenia(!) at the minimum. The "argument" is pretty much that at these scales and over so much time you wouldn't worry about ideology or questions like that because they are just an emergent property of human society itself and as long as humanity is doing fine (ie there is civilization/technological progress) everything else will go through the normal ebbs and flows of human history. That's why the Foundation isn't there to create a certain kind of society or some utopia, it's to "compensate" for such a low point (dark age) in human history. It's there to reduce the overall suffering humanity will experience, not to "fix" all of humanity or that it's the final solution to all of humanity's problems. At best you could argue that Seldon's Foundation will hopefully lead to a "better" society because it is fueled by "science" and the ultimate long term perspective but even there it needs to be acknowledged that the Foundation is extremely technocratic (which can be an issue and is also somewhat explored in the books). The show on the other hand is a bit too busy in setting up a typical "good" (plucky sciences Rebels) vs "evil" (Empire) scenario. Empire is obviously framed as your standard tyrannical and dystopian government which isn't "wrong" in itself but distracts from the "bigger" point, especially because that "bigger point" isn't really explored. As viewer of the show you will probably think that the Empire itself is THE problem but that's not the point the original story was trying to make. If Empire would have been "stable" or could have adapted to the times then Seldon wouldn't have had any issues with it. He wasn't ideologically opposed to it or some sort of Revolutionary and that is a very(!) important aspect that gets swept under the table in the TV show. I mean we even get new characters this season which are obviously there to conspire against Empire and bring about his downfall. The thing is that would totally be fine but I think the show communicates it in such a way that the audience will CHEER for Empire's downfall, that it is a GOOD thing the tyrannical Empire is going down while missing the whole tragic aspect to that because these factors aren't supposed to make things "better", they should exist to show how the actual fall of the Empire happens but that also means they are the cause of that galactic Dark Age... So I'm not sure the show will managed to communicate that the end of the Empire is supposed to be "tragic" (like how the [romanticized] version of the Roman Empire is often viewed to be a "tragic" event in history), not a triumph. I'm also curious how the show would try to depict the fallout of an actual collapse of Empire because currently I fear that the story will be reduced to "tyrannical Empire" is directly replaced by "good science people" which would TOTALLY miss the whole point of the original work to a maddening degree. LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Sep 9, 2023 |
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Sep 9, 2023 22:34
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DaveKap posted:Speaking of satisfying: me when the waiter at olive garden calls for reinforcement parmesan
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Sep 9, 2023 22:41
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I keep thinking back to Cleon the First’s little self-pitying “Oh, I wish I’d asked you when you had a choice” after dropping a galaxy of bullshit on Demerzel. More like Cleon the Worst!
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Sep 9, 2023 23:10
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This Day thought he was an outlier but he ended up destroying the planet like all the other Days would have. Someone pointed out to me that in Season 1 Episode 2, after the diplomats were executed and their planets nuked, the young Dawn asks Demerzel “How often does it end like this? How often do we choose this?” and Demerzel replies “You always do.”
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Sep 10, 2023 05:14
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Mr. Apollo posted:This Day thought he was an outlier but he ended up destroying the planet like all the other Days would have. The "outlier" thing is odd btw because it is once again a misunderstanding of psychohistory. It simply does not care about individuals, noone is inside or outside of it. The whole point is that in the long run even the biggest "outlier" will be insignificant to societal forces at the largest scale. It doesn't matter if Hitler exists or doesn't exist, wars will be fought, forms of governments will be explored and discarded etc. but all of that happens within a bigger societal context/development no individual can escape. Hitler can significantly shape the political landscape of his time but he didn't shape all the developments leading up to it nor will he shape everything that comes after him (and yeah the whole clone dynasty part of the show COULD be seen to undermine the concept of Psychohistory but the show and TV Seldon don't frame it that way so I guess clone Cleons are "okay" for Psychohistory). I think that's the concept people always struggle with. Psychohistory doesn't mean individuals don't have an influence on what is happening, it just says given enough individuals over a long enough time it will average out to certain societal "trends". Without the American and French Revolution it is possible that the spread of democratic nations would have been (significantly) delayed but even outside of these specific events there were already very big societal (philosophical) developments at play which created the environment for these revolutions (and a lot of the same forces also paved the way for communism/communist revolutions). But that also doesn't mean that psychohistory is some exact or deterministic prophecy. The smaller the time scale and the smaller the population you look at is the more imprecise it becomes. That's why it also comes with very important axioms, ie it requires a society (galaxy) with only humans (or human-like minds, ie Robots that think like humans/are made by them are "acceptable") and that the population in the model is large enough. It also means that Seldon's plan is a "best case scenario" that doesn't pretend like it's an inevitable outcome. The "inevitable" outcome is just that there will be a (significant) "dark age", that's really all. His plan exists to get the best outcome out of a bad situation but that requires ACTION(!) and is the reason why the Foundation is required in the first place because Psychohistory is not deterministic, societal action DOES matter. The point in the (original) story is just that it is already too late for the Empire or to completely prevent the Dark Age, maybe climate change is an appropriate comparison nowadays, we know the damage is done and we can predict various scenarios with more or less consequences but we are past the point of "no damage due to climate change". Now we try to reduce the "dark age", ie how bad climate change might become. The funny thing is that the show did kinda pick up on that comparison early on with Gaal's home planet so I guess Psychohistory is kinda topical if you look at it from that angle. You of course have to take psychohistory at face value that a chaotic system like human society could ever be "predicted" (even at a macro scale) though it is interesting to view it in a similar light as our eco system in the context of climate change (which is also a chaotic/complex system) but it seems like people too often assume that the "error" in Psychohistory is somehow about individuals throwing it off or that its trying to pit "individuality" against "society" (it's like saying scientists are wrong about climate change if suddenly a giant meteorite crashed into earth). I'm still not sure if the show reflects Asimov's own idea and wants to "discuss" that or if it is a truely different version of/take on "Psychohistory". It's hard to tell whether or not Day misunderstood what Psychohistory is within the actual story as a character and that's why he made that whole speech or if that's just a reflection of how the show understands/portrays Psychohistory because TV Seldon has also made various comments that point in this direction. Maybe(?) a spoiler, I honestly don't know at this point because the show is already showing it but let me be careful: It is also important to note that Gaal/Salvor/the Mule/"Mentalics" aren't "outliers" because they are "special individuals", they are "outliers" because they go against the basic axioms of Psychohistory, ie they aren't normal "humans" (especially in regards to how they can "control/influence" other humans). LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Sep 10, 2023 |
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Sep 10, 2023 06:15
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Day is a dumbass. When Demerzel glitched out before saying gtfo, it looked like she was basically calculating that this Cleon is a lost cause and she's not going to stick around.
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Sep 10, 2023 12:47
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Man, so many people disrespecting Day. "I've met outliers, you sir are no outlier." "Yester-Day," that whole sperm thing. And yet it still ends on Day basking in the glow of a burning world, having ostensibly gotten everything he wants. It's still so weird that this show is so good after season 1. I have no idea what the specific plan is, but I'm excited to find out, rather than dreading a lame twist.
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Sep 10, 2023 17:03
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I’m really curious to see if Earth ever makes an appearance, and what’s become of it by the time of the Infinite Lee Pace Machine.
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Sep 11, 2023 00:28
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Bargearse posted:I’m really curious to see if Earth ever makes an appearance, and what’s become of it by the time of the Infinite Lee Pace Machine.
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Sep 11, 2023 01:38
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Really difficult to say if there is going to be another time jump, seems like they’re sticking close to the books on some things and going off in whole new directions with other things. Oddly enough I think that’s one of the things I’m liking the most, even though I’ve read the books it still manages to genuinely surprise me.
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Sep 11, 2023 01:50
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I'd be surprised if next season didn't jump to the mule timeline. Most TV shows don't have the patience to show a big bad that's more than a season away. Although with only one episode left I'm not sure how they'd pull it off unless gale and daughter go into cryosleep again.
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Sep 11, 2023 01:58
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I think I read somewhere that season 3 will focus on The Mule, though I really hope they don’t play him straight as the fearsome warlord we’ve seen in Gaal’s visions, and that he’s been hiding in plain sight like he was in the books
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Sep 11, 2023 02:34
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He’s gotta be the kid right
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Sep 11, 2023 02:38
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With the presence and charisma of Empire/Lee Pace there is a good chance that the Mule will be a disappointment in any case (Mentalist antagonist lady this season is already horrible and not the "good" kind of horrible).
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Sep 11, 2023 02:39
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One thing I didn't get is that the mule shouts "TELLEM" or whatever her name was as if he knows who she is and is upset at her. But now she's dead with her head bashed in. Does that mean the mule is alive now and knows her?
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Sep 11, 2023 02:50
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LinkesAuge posted:With the presence and charisma of Empire/Lee Pace there is a good chance that the Mule will be a disappointment in any case (Mentalist antagonist lady this season is already horrible and not the "good" kind of horrible). Rachel House is fabulous.
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Sep 11, 2023 04:21
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Yea Rachel House rules and she’s been playing Tellem great
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Sep 11, 2023 04:25
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Bargearse posted:
The Magicians did this. Both the books and the show were great!
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Sep 11, 2023 04:28
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Cojawfee posted:One thing I didn't get is that the mule shouts "TELLEM" or whatever her name was as if he knows who she is and is upset at her. But now she's dead with her head bashed in. Does that mean the mule is alive now and knows her? No, it was established that when Gale has her visions her consciousness is actually traveling to that time period. So since Tellem was riding Gale he was able to identify her. Hence why Gale said "she was stupid to bring them here"
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Sep 11, 2023 04:41
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D-Pad posted:No, it was established that when Gale has her visions her consciousness is actually traveling to that time period. So since Tellem was riding Gale he was able to identify her. Hence why Gale said "she was stupid to bring them here" Yes but why did he know her? He knows Gaal because they fight in the future. The last time she went to the future, I think he was surprised that it was actually past Gaal that was there. But he already knew her. He angrily yelled at Tellem as if he knew her.
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Sep 11, 2023 05:03
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Cojawfee posted:Yes but why did he know her? He knows Gaal because they fight in the future. The last time she went to the future, I think he was surprised that it was actually past Gaal that was there. But he already knew her. He angrily yelled at Tellem as if he knew her. He's psychic and he's capable of invading Gaal's mind / her past. It could just be as simple as that. Or perhaps he does know Tellum (I've been operating under the assumption that he's the grown up version of the kid we've been seeing, just like you -- or, at the very least, could be piloting the kid's body around). A lot of options here.
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Sep 11, 2023 05:12
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Big Bowie Bonanza posted:Yea Rachel House rules and she’s been playing Tellem great I don't care about the actress, the character was just a one note villain including your typical non-sensical confrontations and dramatic "haha, I will kill you in the most idiotic way possible". It also doesn't help that she leads a cult where the showrunner can't make up their minds if all the people in it are either stupid, evil or just ignorant because what other motivation can you have to go along with what she does? There is just no nuance to the character which isn't required for a good villain but Tellem's persona is also not a "fun" villain. She is manipulative / deceptive but in the most boring way, ie she doesn't require any "skills" or is shown as a competent manipulator, her power literally is "space magic" and her ambition is just as onedimensional. I wouldn't mind this sort of antagonist for a single episode as some sort of "side quest" but for the amount of time she got it just wasn't worth it. Btw a good antagonist/villain brings our heroes a new challenge (and I mean that on a deeper level) and/or changes them in some way. This can't be said about Tellem which is why Gaal/Salvor beating Tellem felt so anticlimactic. They are at the same place they were before they met her (and before that they just forced Gaal into decisions that weren't really authentic to her which can be to some degree explained by Tellem's mentalic manipulation but then you are back to a static character arc). The ONE consequence of meeting her, ie Seldon's "death", has even been taken BACK for some reason. Such fakeout deaths are also just another huge red flag. I hate fakeout deaths with a passion because there are exceptionally rare cases of them being well done instead of being a sign of poor writing. This whole sideplot on that planet has been nothing but wheel spinning and the whole reason for that is probably because they really want to connect it to the Mule somehow (ie the boy theory) but that doesn't really justify everything around it, its such a minor plot point which could have been achieved in other ways, not to mention that I really don't see the value if that theory even turns out to be true. Open Source Idiom posted:He's psychic and he's capable of invading Gaal's mind / her past. It could just be as simple as that. It's mystery box filler instead of actually developing the world they portray. Not only that but it's not even efficient mystery box storytelling. As controversial as Lost was for that type of storytelling, it always delivered on the character side, ie the "mystery box" was at least deeply connected to the characters or made sure that it furthered character development so even if you ignored the mystery box you could still enjoy the characters. None of that is the case here. We didn't gain ANY new insight into Gaal or Salvor as characters, their past, their inner conflicts, their relationships etc. All we get are vague hints at plot threads which aren't even interesting. Salvor's future death is made this HUGE thing despite the fact that they have given their audience zero context why they should care (and no, Salvor dying in an unknow context is on its own not enough) and the same is true for the Mule which is treated like this great threat but again, NOTHING is established about him. Why are we wasting time in setting up these "mysteries"? That would be acceptable as little thing here and there but the show treats them as the MEAT of its story. It's one of the reasons why Gaal and Salvor have achieved nothing in this season so far (and that includes character development, even their relationship is still at a very basic level including a minor inconsequential conflict) because the story is just super unfocused. PS: This has also infected the Empire side of things, its no accident that we have this big "who dunnit" around the assassination attempt and general mystery around the Cleons while exploring the characters/the bigger world has taken a step back. Just to remind everyone, this show is about an Empire in decline and how best to overcome the looming Dark Age. How much time did this season spent on what a declining Empire in this context looks like? And yes the whole Cleon mystery can (and probably will) be used in that context but just doing that is somewhat narrow and will imo also further undermine the whole themes of the Foundation series (if the show even cares for them). LinkesAuge fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 11, 2023 07:01
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A few points: The mentallics on Ignis aren't stupid / evil / ignorant, they're psychically broken to the point of low level possession. They have no free will anymore. Everything they do, their entire culture, is bullshit. It's a ship of theseus made up from co-opted and subverted elements of baby Tellem's culture, designed to break down the resistance of anyone who turns up looking for connection. They're the tiny shrimp they all eat, cooking in a mental soup and quietly screaming as they're digested. The arc exists to act as a foil to Hari and his cult, and as a foil to the ways that the Cleons/Demerzel are functions that are subsumed within Empire. But it also exists as a way to challenge Gaal's passivity in the face of such brainwashing (in the sense that she's actually not that passive and actively finds what Tellum is selling to be quite attractive), to prompt the Hari flashback, and to give Salvor some fun stuff to do with loving over Hari's science and bonding with the other regulars. In a lot of ways it's just setting up some baselines to establish what these characters think about each other and to give them reasons to be bonded together and to like each other, after a season where that really wasn't the case. Plus it introduces a lot of ideas about mentallics e.g. how the greater galaxy treats them, the mechanics of their powers, the damage that even one can do should they wish to. I guess we'll see what other pay-offs it has in the next episode and further down the line, but I wouldn't say this arc was a waste of time. It's not really possible to tell when they're in the middle of it, though yes, it also looks like we're seeing the origin story for the next big threat to the galaxy. It also looks like this arc is about Gaal earning her leadership of psychic commune, about establishing a Second Foundation etc. But also, like, I think I just find this arc more entertaining than you, which is fair enough. House is always fun, and played a good smug villain with some good lines and a decent gently caress you of a death scene. She and her powers felt threatening. Her psychic battles with Gaal were great (and I really like the idea that she was compelling Gaal's mind to act against her, rather than physically contorting her enemy's limbs). The way the arc played with time and perspective is good too. I liked that I was constantly being wrong footed about where characters were, how much time had passed, how much information they had access to, e.g. the bit where it turns out that Gaal knew Hari was "dead" for an entire episode but chose not to tell Salvor. Of course Rachel House is evil, it's obvious she's a villain from the moment she turns up. But the way the arc disrupts you on how and when events occur, the way it fucks with audience positioning, that's fun to me. Finally, I don't think the empire is actually in decline yet. Hober Mallow's attack in episode eight is the show's God bleeds moment, but it seems like Empire, and his proxies, still has the situation relatively sewn up.
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Sep 11, 2023 08:07
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LinkesAuge posted:This can't be said about Tellem which is why Gaal/Salvor beating Tellem felt so anticlimactic. They are at the same place they were before they met her Their position on mentalics changed from "this is how we'll build the Second Foundation" to "holy poo poo they're psychotic, we're on our own." This isn't exactly where they started, because now not only is The Mule a threat but the "army" of mentalics Gaal was supposed to have to combat him hasn't materialized. They're in a WORSE place than before they met Tellem. Also everything Open Source Idiom said above. Open Source Idiom posted:Finally, I don't think the empire is actually in decline yet. Hober Mallow's attack in episode eight is the show's God bleeds moment, but it seems like Empire, and his proxies, still has the situation relatively sewn up. It objectively is in decline. They've been bleeding systems since the the first episode of the series (and even long before that--its peak in terms of territory was during the time of an empress long before Cleon I as mentioned while looking at a mural this season). Technology (other than psychohistory and mega-engineering projects) has been stagnant for hundreds or thousands of years. It's not falling yet, but, well, the book is called The History of the Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire and not just The Fall. Snowmanatee fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 11, 2023 14:31
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In this season Empire has learned that he doesn't have the best ships anymore, and that others have figured out how to restore wiped memories and didn't tell him. He also seemed a little amused at the iron-gold thing so that's probably new too, if not as crazy as the other two. He's absolutely declining. Also he almost got got in the first episode and still hasn't figured that out, and his new bride called him out on his secrets and is suddenly becoming a liability. Also, Day's general hates him and Day so very much wants to kill him, but he's bound to keep Bel Rios because he lacks competent people at the highest levels. His plans are unraveling. He scored a big win on Trantor but I think that's kinda the point - he NEEDED a big win. Both Hari and Demerezel are smart enough to see that, and they're doing stuff with that information.
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Sep 11, 2023 15:00
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Okay, yeah, I guess I was using decline and collapse interchanably, fair point. So yeah, agreed, and we've absolutely had other evidence of this decline elsewhere e.g. the story behind the bottle of wine, the condition of the cowboy planet they've popped over to a handful of times, even the existence of
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Sep 11, 2023 15:45
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LinkesAuge posted:The problem with the whole decoy idea is that it doesn't make sense. With respect, this feels like an issue with you not really getting subtext with regards to the empire declining. Take those rings. Those are a huge sign of the empire's decline. They aren't the pyramid, they're the hot rod for a middle aged man. They are empire reflexively going 'you want to blow up our big space dick? We' ll build three bigger, better space dicks. That project would have been insanely resource intensive, and while empire was focused on building those, they weren't focused on the actual empire. We have tons of signs of empires decline in both dialogue and in world building. Empire sent fourteen ships to terminus. They sent hundreds, possibly thousands to sanction anachreon and thespis. Because that big old fleet ain't what it used to be. The first episode includes day almost getting got. The chances of that happening in the first season are next to nil. The three seats more or less openly hate each other, which is an extension of the tension from the first season with dawn's little rebellion. Trantor isn't going to look run down or lovely. Rome was building astonishing new structures well into the fall because the fall doesn't start in Rome and everything within the story tells us that empire is rotting away. Rebellious generals, planets full of thieves who murder imperials on sight, you name it. Caros fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Sep 11, 2023 |
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Sep 11, 2023 15:46
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Caros posted:With respect, this feels like an issue with you not really getting subtext with regards to the empire declining. You really found a good way to sum up how I felt reading that post.
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Sep 11, 2023 17:28
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Don't forget the memory archivist not really treating Dawn/Dusk with deference. One of the soldier supplying intel about Day. And the previous season the gardener being able to get close enough to damage the genetic dynasty forever, where they now have to practice eating to stay in sync.
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Sep 11, 2023 17:45
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Open Source Idiom posted:He's psychic and he's capable of invading Gaal's mind / her past. It could just be as simple as that. It would be pretty funny if Tellum managed to switch minds with Gaal at the last moment and Hari actually killed Gaal and next episode Tellum has to cosplay as Gaal and go on fun space adventures with Salvor and Hari. The Mule is just confused as poo poo about who is coming around wearing Gaals body.
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Sep 11, 2023 19:48
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I wouldn’t be surprised if a bit of Tellem was inside Gaal (Though not fully in control and pretending to be her). That interruption of the transfer didn’t look very clean, and a simple slap fixed everything up?? Not buying it.
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Sep 12, 2023 01:53
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It’s just amazing that Day thinks that that busting out some children the old fashioned way is what will save his empire, thousands of years of history to the contrary. Like dude, all it takes is one stupid or insane kid to blow the whole thing.
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Sep 12, 2023 06:57
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CubanMissile posted:It’s just amazing that Day thinks that that busting out some children the old fashioned way is what will save his empire, thousands of years of history to the contrary. Like dude, all it takes is one stupid or insane kid to blow the whole thing. His thought process is 'sound' provided you look at it from the perspective of someone profoundly self absorbed. He can see the writing on the wall. Seldom was right, empire is failing. Everything from rebellion among officers to his own dammed genetics, none of it is keeping together. Seldon predicted this. But things he predicted (such as a major religious uprising) were stopped by the actions of a cleon. Seldon made a point of attacking the genetic dynasty, so from day's point of view the issue is that the dynasty cannot persist. Since he can't be immortal, the next best thing is kids. It is a bad answer that doesn't address the issues. But day is a stupid man.
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Sep 12, 2023 07:06
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Their entire strategy of being perfectly Cleon is such a waste. They could have spent a millennia becoming stronger through trial and error. I imagine if my younger brother was me I’d be telling him every day “maintain bullshit relationships because believe me you want a $100k a year job nepo job where you write a few emails every day”. And if that didn’t work for round 3 we could focus on coasting by on good looks or something. But I guess when you’re the emperor of everything it’s easy to assume you’re making all the right moves.
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Sep 12, 2023 07:27
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CubanMissile posted:Their entire strategy of being perfectly Cleon is such a waste. They could have spent a millennia becoming stronger through trial and error. I imagine if my younger brother was me I’d be telling him every day “maintain bullshit relationships because believe me you want a $100k a year job nepo job where you write a few emails every day”. And if that didn’t work for round 3 we could focus on coasting by on good looks or something. But I guess when you’re the emperor of everything it’s easy to assume you’re making all the right moves. Dawn's a young poo poo who thinks he knows better than those other two old men Day's a young man in the prime of his life who thinks Dawn's a young poo poo who doesn't know anything and that Dusk is an old doddering fool Dusk's the grandpa with a ton of experience who the younger kids put in the den to watch the Trantor equivalent of Fox News so he can rant about stuff in quiet such is the circle of life, it can never be broken
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Sep 12, 2023 14:36
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| # ? Jun 3, 2024 17:04 |
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Just-In-Timeberlake posted:Dawn's a young poo poo who thinks he knows better than those other two old men Yeah, I was thinking how ironic it's been that these generations are meant to have drifted from their original counterpart, but Dawn's running off after a girl, Day's crushing religious groups and blowing up planets and... Dusk is, I dunno, doing art.
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Sep 12, 2023 15:13
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