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Arivia posted:I don’t disagree but that’s also not what we’re talking about. Thinking that people deserve probes for making "bad" book recommendations is deranged, and saying "I wouldn't have to aggro post if the mods just enforced having good opinions" is even moreso. Like, seriously think about it for a moment. You're saying that mods need to: 1. Know enough about forgotten realms to even understand the argument 2. Know enough about both sets of books to understand which argument is "correct" 3. Still make a value judgement about what is "merely controversial" and what is "objectively wrong" and accept the heat from people who disagree. Surely you realize that is not a remotely reasonable ask of mods or even an IK, right?
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Sep 12, 2023 17:43
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It's very telling that even in this discussion there are people aggroposting at the mods for not doing enough. Yes, I know tone policing is also a potentially toxic thing but that's for when you're talking about real weighty poo poo and not about whether people are being generically angry assholes online. The stakes here are low, we all want things to be better, but running up and stamping your foot like this is a world-changing issue that demands rapid and flawless responses feels way out of whack.
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Sep 12, 2023 17:47
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Capfalcon posted:Thinking that people deserve probes for making "bad" book recommendations is deranged, and saying "I wouldn't have to aggro post if the mods just enforced having good opinions" is even moreso. I don't think it's unreasonable for mods/IKs to recognize who's got subject matter expertise (in this case it was myself and thread ik PeterWeller, who agreed with me) versus Rutibex. And if it was just going "no I like this book better than that book" it wouldn't be nearly as meaningful. The problem was that Rutibex was making incredibly bad, useless to downright harmful/confusing recommendations for books for people to buy from DTRPG - so he was telling them to waste their gaming money on poo poo that wouldn't help them at all. (And if I remember correctly it wasn't just FR stuff, it was also just D&D books in general.) There are plenty of other places on the forums where yes, people do ask for expert suggestions about books to get (SAL or politics threads) or products in general. It isn't unreasonable for there to be an objectively right answer, and yes, if someone was carpetbombing say the SH/SC computer building thread with dogshit advice I would expect they'd get probed through threadbanned for wasting other people's money. (Oh, and Rutibex ALREADY had a history of giving such dogshit advice he was threadbanned from the Path of Exile thread because people THERE had to devote so much time to shouting him down and telling new players not to listen to his bullshit.) edit: in case it isn't clear, I think the bar is much higher because in the case of this interaction with Rutibex it was a third party asking "what books should I buy to add to my D&D game." Making book recommendations (ie: I liked this book and here's why) is different from "I'm here to provide you an expert answer as someone who's trying to help you spend money." Arivia fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Sep 12, 2023 |
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Sep 12, 2023 17:49
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Edit: Nevermind. Posting about posting sucks, and I'm dipping out.
Capfalcon fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Sep 12, 2023 |
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Sep 12, 2023 17:55
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If we could all keep this topical for mod feedback, instead of hashing out personal grudges against people who aren't mods or IKs, that would be great. This is a trad games forum. The stakes for most of us are low. Mods should, imo, feel totally free to tone police the gently caress out of the forum, because most of these arguments are about petty nerd poo poo.
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Sep 12, 2023 18:40
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dwarf74 posted:This is a trad games forum. The stakes for most of us are low. Mods should, imo, feel totally free to tone police the gently caress out of the forum, because most of these arguments are about petty nerd poo poo. I agree but such tone policing should always strive to be brief. The mod shouldn't feel much need to elaborate. It should be the equivalent of "Cut the poo poo." e: vvvvv Also this. Magnetic North fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Sep 12, 2023 |
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Sep 12, 2023 18:56
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it is also low stakes. a 6 hour probation isnt something which needs too much explanation and nobody should think it is a big deal.
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Sep 12, 2023 18:57
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Feels Villeneuve posted:it is also low stakes. a 6 hour probation isnt something which needs too much explanation and nobody should think it is a big deal.
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Sep 12, 2023 19:08
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Arivia posted:Conversely, I've also had problems where the moderation wasn't strict enough about objectively bad opinions that could actually hurt the play experience of others. Rutibex was a really big problem here, I have probes for shouting him down and being "aggro" when the mods weren't doing poo poo to shut him up when he was leading people to waste money/do stuff that was completely wrong in every sense for the games he talked about. Opinions are one thing but I wish the mods were a bit more willing to lay down the law about "hey, this person is genuinely loving stupid and has been banned from many other goon spaces for being stupid and really does need shouting down." Recommended an inferior brand of shoe polish, despite my definitive reccomendation list in the OP. User loses posting privileges for one month.
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Sep 12, 2023 19:26
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dwarf74 posted:If we could all keep this topical for mod feedback, instead of hashing out personal grudges against people who aren't mods or IKs, that would be great. Tone policing is great right up until it isn't. Then it really isn't. The stakes of hobby nerdery are incredibly low. yes. Outside of stuff like people being objectively misled when it comes to health & safety around materials, or spending money on sometimes expensive items. But the passion is usually high by simple virtue of it being about hobbies. People care a lot about their pet interest, hopefully healthily, but often unhealthily. That's kind of the default motivation that gets you posting somewhere like TG. If someone is trying to talk about their hobby in a hobby community then they are always going to react poorly to what they perceive as toxic participants. Whether that expresses itself as the person being confrontational/insulting/impatient in their responses or giving up and loving off out of the community, it's still a symptom of an issue that isn't going to be fixed by tone policing. Because a problem in a lot of hobby spaces, and historically TG, is that people who are actively and relentlessly negative towards the current status quo of their interest can skate by every day of the week because they don't necessarily need to kick up a fuss. They just need to say a variation of "that's bad" over and over whenever someone expresses enthusiasm about or curiosity in the target of their malcontent. If you're tone policing then those people need to be spotted and discouraged just as heavily as the people who more demonstrably react to them. But that, historically, does not tend to happen because they aren't generating reports and it's a lot less visible unless you are regularly present to see it. And even then, are you going to act on someone for saying they don't like something? The person pushing back or losing their rag is always going to be more visible and easier to blame. The people who just give up and leave are invisible. So you get an insular hobby community of grogs where negativity is pervasive, and that's not healthy or sustainable.
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Sep 12, 2023 19:39
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It's fine to report one post as part of a pattern. Then follow up with a PM if you need to explain more.
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Sep 12, 2023 19:59
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I don't find the MTG threads enjoyable to post in. I love MTG and wish I could have fun talking about it.
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Sep 12, 2023 20:03
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I have to insist that banning someone for dancing on the grave of someone who, by all accounts i can see, was a perfectly normal dude is not tone policing and in fact is perfectly fine and valid
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Sep 12, 2023 20:22
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Arivia posted:I don't think it's unreasonable for mods/IKs to recognize who's got subject matter expertise (in this case it was myself and thread ik PeterWeller, who agreed with me) versus Rutibex. And if it was just going "no I like this book better than that book" it wouldn't be nearly as meaningful. The problem was that Rutibex was making incredibly bad, useless to downright harmful/confusing recommendations for books for people to buy from DTRPG - so he was telling them to waste their gaming money on poo poo that wouldn't help them at all. (And if I remember correctly it wasn't just FR stuff, it was also just D&D books in general.) I ate a probe because you kept arguing D&D totally supports running investigative mystery games. A game that is going to cost north of a hundred dollars and has no support besides not actively stopping you and has an entire sub-sub-system (divination magic) that obviates mysteries. In a conversation about games with actual mechanics for running mysteries. I’m not bringing this up because it was necessarily a bad probe. I’m very easy to bait into posting angry and that’s my own problem. But what exactly is the substantive difference between Rutibex’s bad lore advice vs. your bad system advice. Where’s this easy line you’re trying to draw? (Outside of Rutibex being a bigot and transphobe. gently caress that guy and I’m very glad he’s gone. I think we have ample agreement on that point.)
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Sep 12, 2023 20:26
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Feels Villeneuve posted:it is also low stakes. a 6 hour probation isnt something which needs too much explanation and nobody should think it is a big deal. It is absolutely a fact that the most insane inbox-filling freakouts all come from sixers Spanish Manlove posted:I don't find the MTG threads enjoyable to post in. I love MTG and wish I could have fun talking about it. Ok, so I went about 20 pages back in the mtg thread and I'm really not seeing this unreadable pit of toxicity. It's nerds talking about cards. caring about them a lot; possibly too much? Not for me to judge. Cards are important. Framboise made roughly the right call, which is all an ik can reasonably be expected to do, and toshimo can consider himself on notice to chill out going forward as he clearly gets people's backs up. Pm me if you think there's bad behaviour that's going unnoticed.
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Sep 12, 2023 20:34
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the main mtg thread is currently fine and is a lot better from even six months ago the commander-specific MTG thread, however, was a toxic cesspit last I checked
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Sep 12, 2023 20:40
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kalel posted:the main mtg thread is currently fine and is a lot better from even six months ago This is like that scene in the horror movie when the guy checks out the noise and it's nothing and relaxes then looks in the mirror E: no, phew, the commander one is the thread I looked at. I'm just not seeing it, if I'm just being dumb feel free to pm me what I've missed.
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Sep 12, 2023 20:44
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sebmojo posted:It is absolutely a fact that the most insane inbox-filling freakouts all come from sixers this is technically true but i mean more in the sense that like - other people in the thread or whatever shouldn't really be freaking out if someone gets a cool-off timeout for getting too mad at the MTG Modern banlist or whatever, and there's really not much need for an IK to hem and haw over giving someone a time-out. sebmojo posted:Ok, so I went about 20 pages back in the mtg thread and I'm really not seeing this unreadable pit of toxicity. It's nerds talking about cards. caring about them a lot; possibly too much? Not for me to judge. Cards are important. i actually think both the MTG thread and the board game thread have improved significantly over the last few months to the point where i actually post in them sometimes. i have long been considered a bellwether for whether a thread is good or not
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Sep 12, 2023 20:45
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Feels Villeneuve posted:this is technically true but i mean more in the sense that like - other people in the thread or whatever shouldn't really be freaking out if someone gets a cool-off timeout for getting too mad at the MTG Modern banlist or whatever, and there's really not much need for an IK to hem and haw over giving someone a time-out. 100% yes, it's just a funny mod truism
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Sep 12, 2023 20:48
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sebmojo posted:This is like that scene in the horror movie when the guy checks out the noise and it's nothing and relaxes then looks in the mirror ah then it may have gotten better since I frequented it. never mind
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Sep 12, 2023 20:50
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fwiw I don't think the MtG thread is necessarily toxic in the sense that you feel harassed and bullied just for posting in it, but I also think it's not a particularly useful thread. The problem with it is that there's a few posters in there who mostly see Magic as a collectable/investment thing and play their favorite deck on the side, some other posters follow the newest releases, draft a bit and add new cards to their stable of decks, and there's some people who actually don't play with cardboard at all, but on Arena, and follow the thread because it's got different posters and perspectives to the Arena thread in Games. The result is that over three pages there can be three different discussions going on, and people either ignore most of the posts and just quote alongside each other, or - worse - respond to a convo where they are not the target group but don't realize it. In the end, it's a complete crapshoot, when you ask or comment on something, if the response will a) be relevant b) be disrespectful (used to be worse...I guess, I haven't posted/read for longer than about a year in the thread) c) happen at all. I don't really know if that's fixable or a big problem at all. Just something I've noticed at least for myself. Maybe the thread is a great resource for MtGfinance people but I wouldn't know, I'm not one of them lol
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Sep 12, 2023 21:02
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Xiahou Dun posted:But what exactly is the substantive difference between Rutibex’s bad lore advice vs. your bad system advice. Where’s this easy line you’re trying to draw? Us having a system discussion doesn’t cost me, you, or anyone else money. That’s the very easy line, imo. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 12, 2023 21:07
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Simply Simon posted:The result is that over three pages there can be three different discussions going on, and people either ignore most of the posts and just quote alongside each other, or - worse - respond to a convo where they are not the target group but don't realize it. Having big megathreads means there's going to be multiple conversations happening at once, quite a lot.
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Sep 12, 2023 21:07
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Arivia posted:Us having a system discussion doesn’t cost me, you, or anyone else money. That’s the very easy line, imo. Is D&D free now? You cut out the part about price from that post. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 12, 2023 21:09
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Yeah, that characterization of the Magic thread isn't wrong, I just don't see how it's a problem. I'm one of the Arena players popping in there regularly and I find all the posts (in theory) interesting and good to read. And the #mtgfinance stuff seems to not actually be that big? Despite the recent #legofinance derail.
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Sep 12, 2023 21:09
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i'm pretty sure the MTG thread like universally hates finance weirdos lol e) like i don't mean people asking what their cards or worth, or talking about cracking boosters, i mean the types who obsessively post about #investing and scream at the idea of proxies
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Sep 12, 2023 21:09
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Simply Simon posted:The result is that over three pages there can be three different discussions going on, and people either ignore most of the posts and just quote alongside each other, or - worse - respond to a convo where they are not the target group but don't realize it. In the end, it's a complete crapshoot, when you ask or comment on something, if the response will a) be relevant b) be disrespectful (used to be worse...I guess, I haven't posted/read for longer than about a year in the thread) c) happen at all. This is pretty much true of any thread with decent daily traffic across the board, and I don't see any way around it when there aren't any more sizeable topic chunks to carve off a thread.
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Sep 12, 2023 21:11
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Xiahou Dun posted:Is D&D free now? You cut out the part about price from that post. No*, but I looked back at that entry in your rap sheet and it was us and others discussing the movie. It wasn’t someone going “hey I want to go buy an rpg to run a heist in” and I recommended 5e (which I think would be lovely). The argument I had with Rutibex was specifically someone asking what books to buy then and there. You’re trying to recontextualize a general systems discussion we had as a product recommendation and that’s pretty disingenuous. *well, there are the basic rules 
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Sep 12, 2023 21:12
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Xiahou Dun posted:I ate a probe because you kept arguing D&D totally supports running investigative mystery games. A game that is going to cost north of a hundred dollars and has no support besides not actively stopping you and has an entire sub-sub-system (divination magic) that obviates mysteries. In a conversation about games with actual mechanics for running mysteries. d&d supports mysteries perfectly fine, skill + imagination issue tbh (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 12, 2023 21:26
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Vando posted:This is pretty much true of any thread with decent daily traffic across the board, and I don't see any way around it when there aren't any more sizeable topic chunks to carve off a thread. That's not something moderation can address by pushing the correct buttons (by no means am I advocating to probate people for saying "I don't like thing"), but if more people looked at the thread in general and didn't feel put off by the overall (maybe perceived/remebered) atmosphere, I think it might just be a better thread with more content and funner reactions overall. So it is definitely worth to keep making it a better place to read and post in!
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Sep 12, 2023 21:29
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mtggoldfish's voice really is incredibly annoying though
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Sep 12, 2023 21:30
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kalel posted:the main mtg thread is currently fine and is a lot better from even six months ago Popping in to say that the commander thread is infinitely more chill than the main thread and it's not really close at all. There have been a few flare ups here and there over the years but nothing damning or real issues have happened in ages really. Reading the past page or so since I've ducked out of the conversation has been pretty enlightening and I understand where folks are coming from. I could have handled the situation better. Sorry about that. Whoever said that a big issue is that a lot of posts don't deserve a sixer but the person posting is awful enough to drag the thread down is pretty spot on, because that is kind of how it ended up feeling a lot of the time. A lot of the reports I'd be hearing about were about Toshimo, yes, but I ended up dismissing many of them because tbh a lot of them were very honestly no worse than the assholeish posts that other people do but I never heard a single complaint about. It made it difficult to know what the line was without drawing it too short and just smacking everyone I saw who was getting too heated over cardboard or opinions thereof. I see this behavior so much on SA in general that it makes it hard to determine if it's just goons being goons and I'm probably overreacting, or if something is pushing it too far. The most recent case was clearly over any line and I should have acted sooner without trying to be nice or level-headed about it. I will note that I did put in the request the day of the post, but it didn't get approved until around Sunday iirc. It makes it sound like I delayed a lot more than I actually did. Just wanted to clarify that bit. The entire post was inexcusable in context of the situation. Another thing mentioned is that it seems like a lot of behaviors seem to be accepted more because a lot of the people who wouldn't put up with it are already gone/"invisible", and that sucks for everyone. I meant what I said when I said I would be more strict on hostile posting in the future though. Even though I've decided to step down as IK I'll be making a point of reporting what I see, when I see it. Framboise fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Sep 12, 2023 |
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Sep 12, 2023 21:33
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Feels Villeneuve posted:mtggoldfish's voice really is incredibly annoying though I kinda like it, but I'm well aware I'm a weirdo.
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Sep 12, 2023 21:55
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Framboise posted:I meant what I said when I said I would be more strict on hostile posting in the future though. Even though I've decided to step down as IK I'll be making a point of reporting what I see, when I see it. yes, there's a clear message from this thread that hostile posting is driving people away so report it, pm me if it's not being addressed, and if you are personally feisty please dial it back or there will be consequences.
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Sep 12, 2023 22:09
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Framboise posted:Whoever said that a big issue is that a lot of posts don't deserve a sixer but the person posting is awful enough to drag the thread down is pretty spot on, because that is kind of how it ended up feeling a lot of the time. A lot of the reports I'd be hearing about were about Toshimo, yes, but I ended up dismissing many of them because tbh a lot of them were no very honestly no worse than the assholeish posts that other people do but I never heard a single complaint about. It made it difficult to know what the line was without drawing it too short and just smacking everyone I saw who was getting too heated over cardboard or opinions thereof. I see this behavior so much on SA in general that it makes it hard to determine if it's just goons being goons and I'm probably overreacting, or if something is pushing it too far. My personal take would be that it's ok to probe people in general rather than focusing on a specific post. If one poster is generating reports where others aren't, that's probably a sign that people are sick of repeated antics vs someone who maybe is having a bad day who gets snippy. You still need to keep an eye out for stuff where it's an in-crowd vs outsider thing, but that should be pretty obvious on review of the reports/recent posts anyway.
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Sep 12, 2023 22:26
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I agree with that as a principle, but there are exceptions because certain people just always report their one posting enemy. Reports are... well, you have to take them each with the context they exist in, and that includes the post being reported with the reason provided, that person's rap sheet and long-term habits as discussed today, and also who is reporting them and are they just taking their side of a dumb argument to the reports queue. I don't want to discourage anyone from reporting things, though. Even if you're involved. Maybe you're calling attention to a mod who will give both you and your posting enemy probations for your bad posts, but that's still better for the thread and everyone else. For those not immersed in the Magic the Gathering TG culture: for many many long years it was habitual for people who don't play Commander to poo poo on people who do, both directly and with sort of snide side-comments. We've cracked down on that, it's not allowed, and I think a lot of that tension is resolved. It's never going away completely because people who don't like that format are annoyed by all the cards Wizards prints that are specifically for that format (but mixed in with the rest in packs) and that's understandable. But dumping on people for enjoying their card game wrong isn't OK and hasn't been under my watch. If you've avoided the commander thread because it used to be haunted by those ghosts, I'd encourage you to check it out again in its current iteration.
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Sep 12, 2023 23:01
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I hope I'm setting a good example by not going in the Commander thread because I can't stand Commander.
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Sep 12, 2023 23:11
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Xiahou Dun posted:But what exactly is the substantive difference between Rutibex’s bad lore advice vs. your bad system advice. Where’s this easy line you’re trying to draw? To talk in a broad way from a poster POV and not with any special mod insight or whatever, I think there's going to be some level of cyclical debate of TG topics. Games get a new edition, some rules addon, a new format, new players come in and ask old questions, people go back and reconsider things in retrospect, etc. If someone's giving bad advice, I think digging in and rebutting it is good. If it gets really heated and lost in the weeds, just stop it. Someone like Rutibex doing it repeatedly while people get fed up with it becomes its own problem that could just be settled with "You in particular have failed to make this case over and over and need to shut up about it." There was one point he farted out some old digs on 4e D&D and got immediately shut down, and good riddance to that. "Moron who is so absolutely confident in their rightness about something wrong and who won't shut up about it" is pervasive in TG spaces and a lot of other discussion spots get straitjacketed into this dilemma of "Well they're an ignoramus but they're not being *quite* rude enough to ban" and I always appreciated SA for being willing to just cut through that if someone's... abstractly awful for discussion? I suppose there's some risk of like, a large enough clique getting evangelical about their subjective opinion being absolute truth. That's also something that's just sort of innate in TG forums, in my experience, and usually exacerbated by people not having any firsthand experience with whatever game they're beefing on. It should be something everyone here's also cognizant of trying to avoid given all the 4e D&D canards that got frustratingly tossed around, or Pathfinder rules, or [insert your own particular game obsession nobody else plays, you know you have one.]
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Sep 12, 2023 23:45
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Vando posted:I hope I'm setting a good example by not going in the Commander thread because I can't stand Commander. Also Rutibex did the same thing in the board game thread, just made really bad suggestions about games and I was glad when he stopped posting there, and wasn’t surprised to hear he did it in other threads as well.
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Sep 12, 2023 23:51
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Tekopo posted:Thank you for your service He was thread banned from Path of Exile video game thread for recommending unplayable builds
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Sep 12, 2023 23:53
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